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Old December 5th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #841
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
I think now you can have an idea why there are not so many HS trains between Milan and Turin yet
Actually, no. The current existing infrastructure doesn't preclude running a HST to Milano every hour.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 11:29 AM   #842
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Actually, no. The current existing infrastructure doesn't preclude running a HST to Milano every hour.
no, but it makes it unpalatable for an operator: now travelling time between the main station of Turin (Porta Nuova) and Centrale is about an hour. Too much an uncompetitive with car. When it will be 40 minutes it will be SIGNIFICANTLY more attractive

Trenitalia concentrated its current stock of ETR500 on Milano-Roma-Napoli services and for good reasons

Trenitalia is buying new trains iand NTV will start operating next year. Services on the Turin-Milan are bound to be the most increased one as the Milano-Roma is already operating at a good level

Nothing of the above has anything to do with the importance of building this line which is not measured on its first real year of opening (Novara-Milan opened just 1 year ago) but in the scale of the decades
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Old December 5th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #843
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Milan-Turin InterRegio run every hour and are always full. Maybe the fact that they cost 9.50€ instead of the 31€ of the HST count for something...
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Old December 5th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #844
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QUOTE=Coccodrillo;68391335]Milan-Turin InterRegio run every hour and are always full. Maybe the fact that they cost 9.50€ instead of the 31€ of the HST count for something...[/QUOTE]

also Milan-Rome service are always full and they cost 85€. Also Milan-Bologna which has similar characteristichs

The importance is the quality of the service (which is still not optymal on Turin-Milan) not the price. Whenever we will have a train per hour on the line (i think soon enough) and 40 minutes and competition we will see those trains are full too.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 10:14 PM   #845
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Whenever we will have a train per hour on the line (i think soon enough) and 40 minutes and competition we will see those trains are full too.
It may be and I hope so, but still, a relevant part of peopel will still go by car or IR, reducing the utility of the new line.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 10:24 PM   #846
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There is no "InterRegio" service in Italy. Inter regionale trains were abolished in 2007 if I'm not wrong. They are purely Regional (Regionale) services. They take 1h55 circa against 0h57 of the TAV/ES*AV (Frecciarossa). Essentially, they take twice the time.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 10:43 PM   #847
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Because of some internal rules of Trenitalia, "IR" and "D" trains needed a conductor every 4 coaches, "R" trains a conductor only every 6. So they decided to rename all InterRegio and Direct trains to Regional so to save money. But the IR and D service still exist.

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Essentially, they take twice the time.
But cost a third, which for some people is important.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 11:36 PM   #848
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It may be and I hope so, but still, a relevant part of peopel will still go by car or IR, reducing the utility of the new line.
they are two entirely different market segment, they do not compete with each other but very marginally
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Old December 5th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #849
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From your point of view. In my opinion, new infrastructures should be used by as much traffic as possible to make sense of the public money spent on them.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 12:19 AM   #850
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From your point of view. In my opinion, new infrastructures should be used by as much traffic as possible to make sense of the public money spent on them.
The question is as follows: suppose a 37 min Milano - Torino ES-AV travel time.

The highway estimated travel time (only highway section) is 1h14. Exactly twice the HSR time.

Of course, in both cases, you need to account to the fact the minority of people are travelling within short walking or driving distance from both stations or both highway ends. But, usually, once you get far from the focal points (stations/highway exits) car is better to absorb and reroute to actual origin and destinations points than train. So the market for TO-MI AV/AC line is more about displacing other train passengers from slower and crappy services and, of course, providing longer distance trips like to Bologna or Venezia - too far to be easily reachable by car.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 12:36 AM   #851
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So the market for TO-MI AV/AC line is more about displacing other train passengers from slower and crappy services and, of course, providing longer distance trips like to Bologna or Venezia - too far to be easily reachable by car.
Your assumptions are correct but I struggle to understand how can you logically draw such conclusions from them.

Of course, travel time being equal, private transport is more competitive than mass transit, as it allows greater geographic and time flexibility. The whole point of high speed lines is exactly to reduce travel times, thus making train more competitive than car. With a travel time of less than 40 minutes between the two cities train would be more competitive than car basically for everyone.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #852
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The importance is the quality of the service (which is still not optymal on Turin-Milan) not the price. Whenever we will have a train per hour on the line (i think soon enough) and 40 minutes and competition we will see those trains are full too.
I think even with a train ever hour taking an hour the quality would already improve. More important is that the service gets well integrated in the metropolitan railway in Torino (which seems to be the intention). Not every potential customer lives in walking distance of Porta Susa...
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Old December 6th, 2010, 11:39 AM   #853
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Of course, travel time being equal, private transport is more competitive than mass transit, as it allows greater geographic and time flexibility.
There are actually quite a few people that, if travel time were equal, would choose public transit. But for this not only travel time, but service reliability and frequency matters.
A car has many advantages, but one huge disadvantage: You have to drive it yourself.

Important is that at both ends of the line onwards travel on the regional and suburban railway networks is possible. The biggest problem in Italy here is that the trains aren't very punctual.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 11:48 AM   #854
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I think even with a train ever hour taking an hour the quality would already improve. More important is that the service gets well integrated in the metropolitan railway in Torino (which seems to be the intention). Not every potential customer lives in walking distance of Porta Susa...
there is the metro passing in Porta Susa and several tram lines. S service will stop at this station connecting it with the metropolitan area (HSL station is - unlike the french system - integrated fully with the local, regional trains)

The other major hub (Porta Nuova) is equally integrated

as of today the problem is the travel time between the city which - at 1 hour - remains not-so-competitive with car (1 and half hour, but much more flexible)

we need to wait - I am sure - the end of passante and Porta susa construction to see a major upgrading of the service - like any other italian HSL which is currently fairly well used

Moreover - let me say it again - we will be the first country to have 2 companies competing on HSL. NTV will start next year, they ordered 25 trains (if I am not wrong) and they plan to do the Turin-Milan. I am sure they will add in 1-2 years at least 3-5 services daily each way and more will come with time
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Old December 6th, 2010, 01:39 PM   #855
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Indeed, competition between 2 railway operators is good and welcome. I think it will benefit the public but also Trenitalia. Sometimes companies need to be pressured to change, and NTV might be what Trenitalia needs.

The only thing I truly hope is that authorities don't try to "frame" NTV into running a schedule that just plug the holes of Trenitalia's one. NTV should take some efforts to undercut Trenitalia as a new entrant to the market. Money, at least, they have.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 08:52 PM   #856
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Interesting article about the international connections between Italy and Switzerland, but only in german and french available:

http://www.litra.ch/Mit_Alta_Velocit...n_Verkehr.html (german version)
http://www.litra.ch/Alta_Velocita_ra...rnational.html (french version)

Will be very nice, to get in six hours from Zurich to Rome!
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Old December 6th, 2010, 11:10 PM   #857
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Alors que, sous le régime CIS, neuf paires de trains circulaient aussi bien sur la ligne du Gothard que sur celle du Simplon, il n’y en a aujourd’hui plus que sept.
Here they say that once there were 9 trains pairs each on the Gotthard and Simplon. That's false, these were the original plans, there were 15 pairs on the Gotthard an 9 on the other, and this triad of incompetents (SBB-Trenitalia-Cisalpino, especially the latter two) managed to reduce them to 7 each leading some EuroCity to overcrowding (also in international traffic), that is, regularly with standing passengers.

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Rappelons qu’il y a une dizaine d’années, donc avant le transfert complet du trafic transalpin à la compagnie Cisalpino, 16 liaisons étaient offertes.
Actually, there were 15 until december 2008 when the Cisalpino nightmare started.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 09:26 AM   #858
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Here they say that once there were 9 trains pairs each on the Gotthard and Simplon. That's false, these were the original plans, there were 15 pairs on the Gotthard an 9 on the other, and this triad of incompetents (SBB-Trenitalia-Cisalpino, especially the latter two) managed to reduce them to 7 each leading some EuroCity to overcrowding (also in international traffic), that is, regularly with standing passengers.



Actually, there were 15 until december 2008 when the Cisalpino nightmare started.
True, but given the current state of railway schedules between Italy and its neighbours, I'm not sure Switzerland is the most affected. For sure it's gone worse, but nowhere as dramatically as have international trains to France, Austria or Slovenia.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 09:32 AM   #859
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The only thing I truly hope is that authorities don't try to "frame" NTV into running a schedule that just plug the holes of Trenitalia's one. NTV should take some efforts to undercut Trenitalia as a new entrant to the market. Money, at least, they have.
Well, they will have to use timetable slots offered by RFI. Also it is in their advantage to integrated with the existing network. I just hope that Trenitalia doesn't use their power to force NTV in to a schedule that means that most people arriving at Porta Susa on an NTV train have to wait a long time before they can continue their travel on a regional or suburban train.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 09:40 AM   #860
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True, but given the current state of railway schedules between Italy and its neighbours, I'm not sure Switzerland is the most affected. For sure it's gone worse, but nowhere as dramatically as have international trains to France, Austria or Slovenia.
Indeed. However one of the reasons that Switzerland has good train connections with it's neighbours is geography. There are actually quite a few big cities in Switzerland sited near the border, that attract quite a bit of traffic. Think of Basel and Geneva. And there are a lot of people in Lombardy commuting to Ticino. SBB is even no building a new cross border railway so trains can run from Milano Malpense airport to Lugano.
SBB is also trying very hard (and Trenitalia seems to try as hard to make it impossible) to improve regional and suburban services in the area.

Currently the EC services south of Lugano are indeed often overloaded. North of Lugano the problem is not as acute, as SBB runs relief trains there. However south of Lugano the problem is worsened partly by the non cooperation of Trenitalia. If the regional services from Lugano to Como were better coordinated with those from Como to Milano more people would use them. Now regional traffic gets forced to use the ECs too.

Maybe in the future this changes. Imagine LeNord and SBB setting up a joint venture and winning the contract for the regional traffic in the whole of Lombardy...
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