daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 7th, 2010, 11:35 AM   #861
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Imagine LeNord and SBB setting up a joint venture and winning the contract for the regional traffic in the whole of Lombardy...
This will not happen: politics managed to merge Trenitalia (Lombardy regional passenger division) and LeNord
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 7th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #862
lupin22
BANNED
 
lupin22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
From sbb.ch for Dec. 2 2010, I count (approximately, I may have miscounted duplicates):

From Marseilles: 17 trains to Paris, 20 to Lyon (and then towards Lille, Rennes, Nantes...), 1 to Lille/Bruxelles not calling at Lyon.

From Toulon: 5 trains for Paris not calling at Marseilles

From Montpellier: 13 trains to Paris, 12 to Lyon

So Northbound only, that's 68 trains daily. In both directions, that's between 130 and 140 trains running every weekday on the line (not counting the 2 Marseilles <-> Montpellier trains and the few Paris <-> Valence-ville which run on small portions of the LGV).

There is no reason to believe that HST will compete with plane.The companies that are interested about continental competition between rail and plane are Air France and SNCF.
Their policy of expansion in Southern Europe faithfully reflects the idea of wanting to convey passengers from Southern Europe to Paris CDG airport.
The recent acquisitions of Air Italy and Air One, The SNCF "presence" on NTV and "grandestazioni SA " and the future acquisition of Trenitalia HST assets are tangible evidence of the french transport policies in the Southern Europe.

Last edited by lupin22; December 12th, 2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Pardon my english/Pardonnez mon anglais :)
lupin22 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2010, 04:31 PM   #863
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by lupin22 View Post
There is no reason to believe that HST can compete with the plane
You can already observe HST competing with air, so why would there be "no reason" to believe this.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #864
lupin22
BANNED
 
lupin22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You can already observe HST competing with , so why would there be "no reason" to believe this.
High-speed rail is good for society and it’s good for the environment, but it’s not a profitable business


The French HST (TGV Train à Grande Vitesse)"model*" evolving towards a greater concentration of activities in a large metropolitan areas. The regional rail system in France is being concentrated in a few large metropolitan areas, unlike the Italian urban areas that, historically, have a strong polycentric system (for example, through the Po area). The French medium-sized cities, in these conditions, will operate out of the marginalization of different choices, probably reorganizing (sometimes creating from scratch) adequate systems to link regional nodes with TGV service.



*There are 2 "models" of HSR in Europe

France TGV "model" or "system"
- French TGV is characterized by a complete separation between high speed and conventional services, each one with its own infrastructure.
- The french TGV is closer to air transport than to railways

Germany and Italy HSR "model" or "system"
-mixed freight and passenger model
-High-Speed/High-Capacity (AV/AC) lines
-The high speed and conventional services can run (at their corresponding speeds) on each type of infrastructure.

Last edited by lupin22; December 13th, 2010 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Pardon my english/Pardonnez mon anglais :)
lupin22 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 08:31 AM   #865
mozatellac
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by lupin22 View Post
High-speed rail is good for society and it’s good for the environment, but it’s not a profitable business
That's not completely true. Several lines in France are profitable even after factoring in construction costs. The first HSL (Paris-Lyon) has paid for its construction costs in less than 10 years and most of its profits are now being directed to subsidizing not-as-profitable regional services.
mozatellac no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 08:33 AM   #866
dumbfword
Habitual Line Stepper
 
dumbfword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 293
Likes (Received): 563

I'm pretty sure the Tōkaidō Shinkansen has paid itself off. Don't know about the rest of the network.
__________________
"I am the color red in a world full of black and white"
dumbfword no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 09:59 AM   #867
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21248

Quote:
Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
That's not completely true. Several lines in France are profitable even after factoring in construction costs. The first HSL (Paris-Lyon) has paid for its construction costs in less than 10 years and most of its profits are now being directed to subsidizing not-as-profitable regional services.
That is why segregating (institutionally and financially) money-losing regional services from the rest of the network is good policy: it shows the true cost of providing frequent rail service to smaller location and commuter train service in general.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 10:34 AM   #868
Suissetralia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 67

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is why segregating (institutionally and financially) money-losing regional services from the rest of the network is good policy: it shows the true cost of providing frequent rail service to smaller location and commuter train service in general.
It is important for transparency reasons, but that's just one side of the story as it only measures the purely financial part of it. Then you have to add the social profits which are harder to measure but equally important when deciding over this kind of issues (e.g. even if a train makes losses, the people it transports helps reducing road traffic and therefore both those who use the train and those who use the car get faster to and from work resulting in extra time for each individual. That's why this kind of data shouldn't deserve too much attention. Plus I've always thought it's kind of unfair to compare train services counting the expenditure on infrastructure with other means of transport, as these other means of transport are usually not treated that bad, or should we also measure how much does it cost each kilometer of asphalt for every car so that we can really realize how expensive they are for our societies?
Suissetralia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 10:55 AM   #869
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Don't waste time replying to Suburbanist, it is impossible to discuss with ideologists...
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 12:28 PM   #870
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

+1
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #871
Suissetralia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 67

d'accord, d'accord! I've made a note of that
Suissetralia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #872
lupin22
BANNED
 
lupin22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Don't waste time replying to Suburbanist, it is impossible to discuss with ideologists...
+1
lupin22 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 12:13 AM   #873
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Quote:
Originally Posted by lupin22 View Post
*There are 2 "models" of HSR in Europe

France TGV "model" or "system"
- French TGV is characterized by a complete separation between high speed and conventional services, each one with its own infrastructure.
- The french TGV is closer to air transport than to railways

Germany and Italy HSR "model" or "system"
-mixed freight and passenger model
-High-Speed/High-Capacity (AV/AC) lines
-The high speed and conventional services can run (at their corresponding speeds) on each type of infrastructure.
Generally speaking, that's wrong.
- Most of the TGV lines run on conventional tracks as well (e. g. to Bordeaux or to the ski resorts or along Côte d'Azur). Its far from complete segregation.
- Italian HSR (at least the Frecciarossa) runs almost exclusively on dedicated HSLs nowadays. That is nowadays to my knowledge only true for the Shinkansen and maybe (I don't know) for the Chinese lines. It used to be true for the AVE (and all the 30 other service classes running on Spanish HSLs) but isn't anymore due to the gauge-changing trains they run nowadays.
- The main difference in fact is in the network layout resulting from specific preconditions in each country. The TGV is Paris-centred, just like the rest of the country. Germany is a polycentric country, that is of course reflected in the rail network layout. Italy is polycentric as well, however (so far) one single HSL can carry lots of the nations long-distance rail traffic.


By the way: Milano Centrale is far from being a poor main station. Certainly, its not the best, but there are a lot of worse ones (not only in Italy).
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #874
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Italian HSR (at least the Frecciarossa) runs almost exclusively on dedicated HSLs nowadays.
Rome-Puglia/Calabria HST use the HSL only in part, and all other trains use tradtional tracks in the cities.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 10:34 AM   #875
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
The main difference in fact is in the network layout resulting from specific preconditions in each country.
Precisely.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #876
lupin22
BANNED
 
lupin22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Generally speaking, that's wrong.
- Most of the TGV lines run on conventional tracks as well (e. g. to Bordeaux ). Its far from complete segregation.
The high speed line Tours-Bordeaux is under construction.
302 km , 1,71 milliards d'euros (1re phase)
Mise en service : 2016


Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
- Italian HSR (at least the Frecciarossa) runs almost exclusively on dedicated HSLs nowadays.
il ne faut pas confondre le modèle original du TGV italien avec les services offerts par des entreprises opérant dans les lignes en ce moment......

Last edited by lupin22; December 14th, 2010 at 06:27 PM. Reason: just 4 fun :)
lupin22 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #877
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Still, a lot of TGV services use conventional tracks and will do so for the forseeable future. Therefore, your generalisation is not completely correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Rome-Puglia/Calabria HST use the HSL only in part.
Exactly. These are the Frecciaargenta trains, not the Frecciarossa.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #878
lupin22
BANNED
 
lupin22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Still, a lot of TGV services use conventional tracks and will do so for the forseeable future. Therefore, your generalisation is not completely correct.


Exactly. These are the Frecciaargenta trains, not the Frecciarossa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Still, a lot of TGV services use conventional tracks and will do so for the forseeable future. Therefore, your generalisation is not completely correct.


Exactly. These are the Frecciaargenta trains, not the Frecciarossa.
- (in the most of cases) in the central rural areas the TGV only reaches certain points, and the urban penetration is achieved using regional trains and buses (eg. TER and regional services). The TGV using conventional lines only when the HSL is connected to specific urban nodes (built in a large metropolitan areas like Paris, Lyon, Marseille etc).
- Paris is the main "hub"

Last edited by lupin22; December 18th, 2010 at 03:55 PM. Reason: :)
lupin22 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #879
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by lupin22 View Post
The Italian HSR lines connecting the conventional / fast lines, with high-speed lines while the French "TGV" Interaction Between the different lines is possible through urban nodes of connection built in large metropolitan Areas
I'm sorry, but I'm unable to make sense of what you write here.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #880
lupin22
BANNED
 
lupin22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I'm sorry, but I'm unable to make sense of what you write here.
What exactly you don't understand?

Last edited by lupin22; December 14th, 2010 at 10:25 PM. Reason: :D
lupin22 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium