daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 28th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #921
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Bologna-Firenze should be considered regional or long distance traffic?
It's not a geographical definition, depends on the service. HSR Firenze-Bologna surely isn't, nor a IC which stops in Bologna and Firenze. A train starting in Florence and ending in Bologna and stopping in all or most stations in between is.

Anyway keeping or not such a connection with contract-based services rather thank market-based would be decided by the regions involved (E-R and Tuscany) and if they have money and reasons to pay for this service why not?

In my opinion long distance trains shall be left to market developments and regional, local and inter-regional trains to contract-based agreeements between the involved PA and the company (or companies) providing the service
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 28th, 2010, 09:46 PM   #922
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

I don't agree, rail transport is a system, not a bunch of train. What works for airplanes doesn't works with trains, or doesn't work well.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2010, 10:21 PM   #923
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Depends...for local services probably it makes sense, for long distance less I believe.

The point is that it would be perfectly doable to the following

1) Separate as in the UK the ownership of the network (RFI) from the services (Trenitalia and possibly two companies: Trenitalia local and Trenitalia AV)

2) Liberalize access to the network to private operators, through market systems for HSR and long distance services, through contracts (regional-based) for local transport

3) AFTER the liberalization privatize the Trenitalia AV and possibly even Trenitalia local companies, which will compete with other private and international competitors for the market of long distance travel and for the contracts of local transport

I think in the medium-long term we will reach this situation thanks to european liberalizations, provided the French do not derail all
The UK earlier privatization was not a great succes. To quote the late Earl of Stockton, Sir Harold McMillan " it was the sale of the family silver"*.

To privatize TI , at what price.? TI's enormous debts were paid by the taxpayers. TI's assetts too were paid by taxpayers.

For over 20 years of the ongoing Italian HSLs + HST Trains + Grandi Stazioni Spa saga, etc., the taxpayers have already footed a 100 billion euro bill.

At what price is the Italian State going to sell TI? AT what price is the Italian State going to sell the Grandi Stazioni SpA?...

As you might rememeber, BR was sold for peanuts and the big boys made billions of profit by selling BR assetts bit by bit (assett stripping).

I do not understand this new Italian pseudo-ideology, i.e: with the taxpayer's monies the State should build the infrastructure, which later will be handed over to private corporations, as in the case of the Italian motorways.

Why is the Italian state is uncapable of hiring staff to collect the motorway tolls?

Furthermore in UK, after the thatcheromics storm, private companies are building their own infrastructures, at their own cost, as in the case of the Dartford Bridge (or Elizabeth II Bridge) which is on the River Thames.

This should be taken as an examples for the Bridge on the Straight of Messina which will be built with state monies (?) handed over to private companies ..

I am quite skeptical of this thatcheromics** revisited, served to the public in sauce italienne.

**Thatheromics = Thatcher economics /Thatcherite economics.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth_II_Bridge


Sir Harold Macmillan:

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&&sa=X...df9320e81e9757


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...ly-silver.html

===================================================

an exttract from the article:

It's Labour's turn to sell the family silver
12:01AM BST 24 Aug 2008 26 Comments
Gerry Grimstone masterminded Margaret Thatcher's privatisations. Now he's been invited by the Treasury to identify new assets to swell its depleted coffers. Ben Harrington reports
One cold night in November 1985, Harold Macmillan, the former prime minister, rose to his feet in a smoky gentlemen's club in St James to address the members of the Tory Reform Group. Despite being 91 years old and just a year from his death, that night the elderly statesman delivered one of his most famous speeches.His subject was Margaret Thatcher's radical policy of privatisation. In previous months, parts of Britain's steel industry and railway network, and infrastructure from British Gas to the National Bus Company, had been sold off in one of the biggest national sales in memory. Macmillan disapproved, sniffing that selling assets smacked of the sort of desperation seen in individuals or states with serious financial problems.

"First of all the Georgian silver goes. And then all that nice furniture that used to be in the salon. Then the Canalettos go." Referring to the sale of British Telecom and British Gas, Macmillan said: "They were like two Rembrandts still left."

The speech caused such a stir that Macmillan tried to dampen his comments with a clarification in the House of Lords. But to no avail; his "selling the family silver" speech stuck.
....
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2010, 10:22 PM   #924
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't agree, rail transport is a system, not a bunch of train. What works for airplanes doesn't works with trains, or doesn't work well.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2010, 08:11 PM   #925
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I don't agree, rail transport is a system, not a bunch of train. What works for airplanes doesn't works with trains, or doesn't work well.
IMO the irony is that "what works for airplanes" probably WOULD work in a network like the one we have in France. - Yeah, the French are famous for their opposition to competition in public services, but the French point-to-point concept where all other concerns are sacrificed on the altar of getting as fast to and from Paris as possible lends itself beautifully to third-party providers. Why shouldn't, say, DB, RENFE or some small private company run a few trains per day between Lyon and Paris?

The problems arise in more elaborate networks where many or most passengers have to change trains. Yours faithfully recently found himself stuck with an expensive first-class ticket (seat reserved 2 months in advance) from London to Edinburg - with all trains out of Kings Cross cancelled for five hours. The railway operators - from the kindness of their hearts - were willing to offer me a replacement ticket from Euston to Carlisle. But, "we cannot guarantee you a seat, Sir, and it will be second class". I remonstrated vigorously, but was nosed off: "Sir, please. This is another company".
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2010, 09:48 PM   #926
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

I partly agree with you.

The English system is a bit different, routes are assigned by the government and there are common fares, but companies have a certain freedom.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2011, 04:24 PM   #927
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
IMO the irony is that "what works for airplanes" probably WOULD work in a network like the one we have in France. - Yeah, the French are famous for their opposition to competition in public services, but the French point-to-point concept where all other concerns are sacrificed on the altar of getting as fast to and from Paris as possible lends itself beautifully to third-party providers. Why shouldn't, say, DB, RENFE or some small private company run a few trains per day between Lyon and Paris?

The problems arise in more elaborate networks where many or most passengers have to change trains. Yours faithfully recently found himself stuck with an expensive first-class ticket (seat reserved 2 months in advance) from London to Edinburg - with all trains out of Kings Cross cancelled for five hours. The railway operators - from the kindness of their hearts - were willing to offer me a replacement ticket from Euston to Carlisle. But, "we cannot guarantee you a seat, Sir, and it will be second class". I remonstrated vigorously, but was nosed off: "Sir, please. This is another company".
Well, Italy will have competition on HSR services starting this year.
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 03:59 PM   #928
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
The UK earlier privatization was not a great succes. To quote the late Earl of Stockton, Sir Harold McMillan " it was the sale of the family silver"*.
It wasn't however the failure some make of it. The UK is the first country in Europe where rail started gaining market share again, after decades of decline.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2011, 07:27 PM   #929
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

The ETR X 500, the very first prototype of this class, composed by only one locomotive and one coach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qr4ZYcWhso

It was followed by two other complete prototypes (ETR Y 500, trains Y1 and Y2) and by 30+30 trains.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2011, 12:18 AM   #930
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 3,658
Likes (Received): 1641

Quote:
It wasn't however the failure some make of it. The UK is the first country in Europe where rail started gaining market share again, after decades of decline.
True, but that has only really been the case since the start of last decade and around that time (2002) Network Rail became the major player in the industry owning and managing the track, signals, most stations and general infrastructure. NR is basically a state-owned corporation, accountable to the government (via a state regulatory body) and receives the vast bulk of its funds from them. In essence, the UK has a public-private system in its railways, which differs from the first 8 years or so of full privatisation.

Anyway, factors beyond the political structure of the railways better explains passenger growth. There has been huge population growth in London and the SE over the past 15 years. London alone accounts for around a third of all journeys on the rail network (that ex. the tube), so the SE in total (London and bordering counties) probably make-up close to half. There has been no major road building in this region bar the M25 widening around Heathrow during that period, which contrasts with the entire post-war period up until early 90s. The last Tory gov. before this one still had a transport policy geared towards the car. At the same time companies moving out of cities to the suburbs has slowed/stopped, partly due to planning policies (e.g. the green belt). People have basically been pushed onto the rail as there are no alternatives.
kerouac1848 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2011, 12:32 AM   #931
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 3,658
Likes (Received): 1641

Just seen that post I replied to was from the beginning of Jan. Sorry.
kerouac1848 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old May 7th, 2011, 05:30 PM   #932
panzani
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Because there are still some serious transport engineers left in Italy, who don't like to destroy their Nation and waste public money giving power to some mad marketing ideologist.
I agree with you completely!
panzani no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2011, 05:21 AM   #933
Railfan
steamer
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guayaquil
Posts: 14,809
Likes (Received): 93

Haridas Mederos Ocando rende onore a Italo



Haridas non poteva certo rimanere indifferente al fascino di Italo… e per questo ha realizzato un accuratissimo modello virtuale del nostro bellissimo treno, per la gioia degli appassionati di software di simulazione di treni! Leggete la sua intervista e guardate questo video se avete dei dubbi!



A.V. La tua passione per il mondo ferroviario ci affascina. Raccontaci del modello che hai realizzato per Italo?

H. M. O . "Sono rimasta molto colpita dalla presentazione “emozionale” del treno Italo realizzata da Alstom, il suo produttore, così ho deciso di farne una replica virtuale, realizzando un modello il più aderente possibile alla realtà; ho iniziato a raccogliere tutto il materiale informativo disponibile (foto, video ecc), e partendo da questo ho ricreato con strumenti CAD i vari elementi del treno, lavorandoli infine con software di foto per portare gli elementi grafici in alta risoluzione nel modello 3D. Il mio amico Manuel Mejias & Abraham Eduardo ha aggiunto poi elementi di animazione".

A. V. Quali elementi di Italo hanno catturato la tua attenzione?

H. M. O. "Oltre al bellissimo design del treno e alle sue straordinarie caratteristiche tecnologiche, trovo molto stimolanti i servizi offerti: riproduzioni di film, musica e connessione internet".

A. V. Cosa sai di NTV?

H. M. O. "NTV è il primo operatore italiano privato che offre un servizio di alta velocità con i treni più veloci del mondo, gli Alstom AGV: una flotta di 25 treni chiamati Italo, che faranno tappa nelle principali città italiane".

A.V. Sei pronta a salire su di italo?

H. M. O. "Certamente! Prima di tutto perché avrei l’occasione di vedere dal vero il treno di cui ho realizzato il modello virtuale, in modo da renderlo ancora più accurato. Ma oltre a questo, naturalmente mi piacerebbe fare un bel viaggio in prima classe, magari da Roma a Venezia, osservando dai finestrini la bellezza dei paesaggi italiani …"

Prima di lasciarvi e augurarvi buon fine settimana vorrei ricordarvi che presto sarà possibile scaricare il modello 3D del treno italo dal sito di Haridas

Buon viaggio "virtuale" a tutti!

Altra Velocit
à


Railfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2011, 10:43 AM   #934
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
osservando dai finestrini la bellezza dei paesaggi italiani
Se lo scordi, se avrà is edili messi come in molti TGV...

Quote:
looking the beautiful Italian landscape from the window
Forget it, if it will have the seats placed like many TGV...
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2011, 04:54 PM   #935
panzani
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railfan View Post
nice pic!

panzani no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 8th, 2011, 05:33 PM   #936
Railfan
steamer
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guayaquil
Posts: 14,809
Likes (Received): 93

Railfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2011, 06:35 PM   #937
GENIUS LOCI
No More Italian Mod
 
GENIUS LOCI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Milano
Posts: 35,321
Likes (Received): 11129

Rome, Tiburtina Railways station

Quote:
Originally Posted by tool2106 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal View Post
foto delle ore 9:00

[IMG]http://i52.************/mcdt9d.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i52.************/2r79850.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i51.************/qo9hj9.jpg[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tool2106 View Post
Oggi dopo un mese esatto ci sono passato tornando dall'ufficio. L'effetto è spiazzante.

A tratti semplicemente magnifico, la trasparenza delle vetrate da lontano lascia intravedere oltre la galleria.

Per quanto riguarda l'intelaiatura che hanno montato davanti alla rampa del piazzale, è idendica a quella usata per la centrale energetica, infatti accanto sono in attesa di essere montati gli stessi identici pannelli. Credo quindi che sia qualcosa di temporanea.

Tutt'altra storia dal lato della piazza ipogea dove in 50 metri si alternato quattro cladding diversi: quello della centrale energetica, quello dell'ex edificio di servizio, quello del cubone e la vetrata della galleria.

Comunque ecco un pò di foto fatte con il cell. A presto !







__________________
URBANFILE
GENIUS LOCI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2011, 06:39 PM   #938
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21248

Very, very nice station. One the Italian high-speed network can be proud of! Modern, not just restored.

This project suffered immense resistance when first presented. It was considered out-of-priority, though the previous existing station was a very bad one, open to the street, with low-ceiling underpasses and plenty of beggars.

Now if only they built a brand new station in Firenze...
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2011, 04:42 PM   #939
urban life_MI
BANNED
 
urban life_MI's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Very, very nice station. One the Italian high-speed network can be proud of! Modern, not just restored.

This project suffered immense resistance when first presented. It was considered out-of-priority, though the previous existing station was a very bad one, open to the street, with low-ceiling underpasses and plenty of beggars.

Now if only they built a brand new station in Firenze...
merci...
urban life_MI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 7th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #940
Railfan
steamer
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guayaquil
Posts: 14,809
Likes (Received): 93

Railfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium