daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 17th, 2008, 08:56 PM   #81
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

Recent information released by Trenitalia/RFI says the top commercial speed on the Milan-Bologna line will be 300km/h, except for a section of the line in Modena province with tighter curve radii where speed will be limited to 240km/h. Even the long span bridge over the Po River has been built for speeds up to 300 km/h and during a recent test an ETR500 crossed that bridge at over 330 km/h. Yes, the last segment of the Turin-Milan line has yet to be completed, but trains already reach 300 km/h between Turin and Novara (I've taken that train and it does go up to 300 km/h. Some people have posted videos on youtube with GPS monitoring showing that such speed is actually reached). The same speed is reached on the HST line between Rome and Naples.

The ETR500 may not be fantastic train, but it has its good sides too. It rides more smoothly on new HST lines than the TGV (which I've also taken). It also has a nice design which I personally find much more appealing than that of the TGV.

I agree that Trenitalia services have deteriorated in recent years, so I think competition from NTV and its sleeker AGV trainsets will be more than welcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Not quite so. The top speed of the new Italian High Speed lines is 300Km/h, but the commercial speed will be only of 250Km/h, as per official data published by TAV, Trenitalia, and Italferr.

The ETR500 in a 12 car formation + 2 locos has an output of only 8800Kw under 25Kv wire and weigh aboutt 660 tons. That is about 13.7Kw/ton, compared to the TGV power to weight ratio of about 22kw/ton.

On 3,000 volt dc the ETR500 has only half power (i.e.: 6.85/Kw/ton).

On The DD (Florence Rome High Speed) it runs at a 220km/h, with top speed in case of late runnings of 250km/h.

Furthermore, any TGV of the latest generations can be regeared in about 3 and 1/2 minutes, by adjusting the software.

Once regeared, the TGV can draw 17600Kw for about 50 minutes. That is over 44kw/ton.

The ETR 500 on 3000 volt dc can only use one loco (i.e. 4400KW).

With a power to ratio of only 13,7kw/ton on th HSL under 25kv.ac the ETR500can reach 300km/h after a very slow and long accerelation of about 12 minutes.
A regeared TGV, such as the TGV which did the non-stop run Calais Frethun Marseille-Saint Charles run (1.067 km) in 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds) A regeared standard TGV can accelerate from 0 km/h to 300 km/h in less tha three minutes. Indde on the Lyon- Marseille section the TGV do easily exced 330km/h on a daily basis.

The ETR500,which is a conventional train, such as the ICE 1, with top and tail locos, was a total disaster.

The Etr200 of 1939 was a total succes. The Etr200, an d the Etr250 were articulated trains with power distribution.

Furthermore, the new French High Speed Lines have a double wiring cable of 2x 25kw, and the ondulatory movements of the (thick) catenary starts at about 620Km/h.

Thet new Italian high speed lines, although they use the French method, are made with only one cable and the ondulatory movements of the thin and elastic catenary starts at about 370Km/h.

Therefore, if you push an ETR500, in a reduced formation, let say two locos + 3 cars, at speed above the critical speed in which ondulatoy movements of the catenary occur (about 370Km/h), you will run the risk of pulling down the catenary.

The fact that I am writing in English, it does not mean I am English. In fact I am of Italian orgin, living in th UK.

Before becoming seriously ill with ME I was a fairly successful translator: among other translations, I translated the Italferr technical specifications into English for the new High Speed line from Bologna to Florence, as well as some chapters of the New Florence Hight Speed Station, designed by Sir Norman Foster.

The technical department of engineering of the defunct Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) did not want the ETR500.

The ETR500 was rejected by senior FS technicians since the very beginning, when it was still on the drawing board.

The ETR500 was built for political reason. The seating is also anti-ergonomic.

It is the worst High speed train (sic!!!) in Europe.

It is quite significant that NTV, the new High speed Italian private operator ,
has chosen the AGV.

Only three ETR500 train sets have been sold abroad to Turkey, probably at a great discount, or given for free to Turkey.

Turkey has also bought a large number of ICE3 and CAF trainsets.


I was in Italy a few months ago. Much to my regret, I have to say that, the Italian railway system has progressively deteriorated since 1990, on all major lines.

About 2/3 of the Milan-Turin are completed (85km) on al total lenght of 153km. When fully completed the Turin-Milan HSL will be 125km long with end sections on the historical line. Yet , in 1990 the Pendolino tilting train was doing Milan Turin (153 Km) in 1h 18 minutes, on the old slow line.

Now The ETR500 cover the same distance, but travellng for 85 km on th new High speed line in 1h and 22 minutes!

Furthermore, the italian cross-overs from the historical (slow speed ) lines to the HSL lines, and viceversa, are taken at speed of 20-40 miles. The French crossovers (flyovers) can be negotiated between 220km/h and 260km/h.

In the future, trains non stopping at Bologna and at Florence, will transit through Bologna at 60-100km/h (underground High speed station), and through Firenze High Speed station at 60 (YES, SIXTY) Km/h.

When the Milan-Rome HSL will be completed (but whe year 3010?) and fully operational, a non-stop Milan-Rome will cover the 567 between the two cities in 3 hours, at best, at an average speed of 189 km/h.

Now, the French best timing, on the new section of East HSL is about 278. km/h, between Gare de l'Est and the Gare TGV Champagne (if I remember correctly), covering from stat to stop 168km in about 36 minutes.
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 17th, 2008, 09:53 PM   #82
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by tneruals View Post
Recent information released by Trenitalia/RFI says the top commercial speed on the Milan-Bologna line will be 300km/h, except for a section of the line in Modena province with tighter curve radii where speed will be limited to 240km/h. Even the long span bridge over the Po River has been built for speeds up to 300 km/h and during a recent test an ETR500 crossed that bridge at over 330 km/h. Yes, the last segment of the Turin-Milan line has yet to be completed, but trains already reach 300 km/h between Turin and Novara (I've taken that train and it does go up to 300 km/h. Some people have posted videos on youtube with GPS monitoring showing that such speed is actually reached). The same speed is reached on the HST line between Rome and Naples.
Do you have any information about where the 240 km/h section of the line is?
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 10:06 PM   #83
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

Hi,

There's a pdf (in Italian, unfortunately), with key data on the Milan Bologna line.
http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/all...in%20cifre.pdf

I've found it doing a search in google using the terms "alta velocitÓ" modena 240. I'm saying this because I've managed to open it only by clicking on the link provided by google, otherwise it won't open... You can also find it browsing through the website of Ferrovie dello Stato.

It basically says: 300 km/h velocitÓ di progetto (240 km/h nella provincia di Modena) - 300 km/h project speed (240 km/h in the province of Modena)

5.450 m raggio di curvatura minimo (3.440 m nella provincia di Modena) - 5.450 m mininum curvature radius (3.440 m in the province of Modena). It doesn't go more into detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Do you have any information about where the 240 km/h section of the line is?
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 10:52 PM   #84
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by tneruals View Post
Hi,

There's a pdf (in Italian, unfortunately), with key data on the Milan Bologna line.
http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/all...in%20cifre.pdf

I've found it doing a search in google using the terms "alta velocitÓ" modena 240. I'm saying this because I've managed to open it only by clicking on the link provided by google, otherwise it won't open... You can also find it browsing through the website of Ferrovie dello Stato.

It basically says: 300 km/h velocitÓ di progetto (240 km/h nella provincia di Modena) - 300 km/h project speed (240 km/h in the province of Modena)

5.450 m raggio di curvatura minimo (3.440 m nella provincia di Modena) - 5.450 m mininum curvature radius (3.440 m in the province of Modena). It doesn't go more into detail.
Thank you. I dug a little deeper on that web site and found a map which would sugest that there probably less than 25 km which has a speed restriction
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 12:27 AM   #85
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

It bears inspection, there is a tight s-bend from the bridge with SS 12, finally straightening out again at Fontana to the west of the city, meeting up with the A1 motorway. I know this area of Italy well as I have relatives in Reggio Emilia. It's peculiar the HSR has not been made to follow the A1 all the way from Bologna or nearabouts, it presumably could have kept a better alignment, though I'm sure there were reasons.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...60675&t=h&z=13
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #86
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

My experience with high-speed train lines in Italy is limited to several trips on the Florence-Rome Direttissima and on the Turin-Novara (Milan) line. Although electrified at 3kV, the Direttissima, whose first sections date back to the late 1790s if I'm correct, is a great line with numerous interconnections allowing trains to join the line for a while and then leave the line to serve nearby cities, a bit like a motorway. Yes, I do admire French high-speed lines, but some of the stations are quite far from cities (Amiens-Picardie TGV, for example), making bus connections necessary. Although running on the short (80 something km) Turin-Novara line for the time being (until late 2009 when the extension to Milan will be completed), the train speed definitely feels faster than on the Direttissima, and you can really tell as the train runs parallel to the motorway. Plus the few times I've taken that train they announced the train had reached 300 km/h. And although Trenitalia may not have the best service, they give you a free coffee or drink with cookies, and that is in 2nd class (OK, it doensn't mean service on regular lines is necessarily good, but I thought that was a nice thing to do).

Personally I'm really looking forward to NTV starting high-speed service between major Italian cities (2010 should be the start). Its CEO is no mediocre businessman, for sure, and he knows something about speed since he's also the CEO of Ferrari! Very few details have emerged about how train coaches (Alstom AGV) will be configured, but rumours say there will big leather seats with personal LCD screens.... Well, that service will probably come at a cost, people will scream it's for the Úlite, but knowing my fellow citizens, they'll flock to it:-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Thank you. I dug a little deeper on that web site and found a map which would sugest that there probably less than 25 km which has a speed restriction
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 12:41 AM   #87
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

I think one of the main problems with the line passing near Modena was a historical villa and its park. Old stones are everywhere in Italy (at times I wish there weren't that many:-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
It bears inspection, there is a tight s-bend from the bridge with SS 12, finally straightening out again at Fontana to the west of the city, meeting up with the A1 motorway. I know this area of Italy well as I have relatives in Reggio Emilia. It's peculiar the HSR has not been made to follow the A1 all the way from Bologna or nearabouts, it presumably could have kept a better alignment, though I'm sure there were reasons.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...60675&t=h&z=13
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 03:38 AM   #88
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
It bears inspection, there is a tight s-bend from the bridge with SS 12, finally straightening out again at Fontana to the west of the city, meeting up with the A1 motorway. I know this area of Italy well as I have relatives in Reggio Emilia. It's peculiar the HSR has not been made to follow the A1 all the way from Bologna or nearabouts, it presumably could have kept a better alignment, though I'm sure there were reasons.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl...60675&t=h&z=13
I believe that the alignment arround Modena is political. There are connections, on/off the new line, either side of the city so that a few trains per day can continue to serve the city of Modena. This was discussed in European press in 2001 or 2002.
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details

Last edited by Trainman Dave; March 18th, 2008 at 03:53 AM.
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 03:45 AM   #89
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

tneruals you don't have to convince me. Joseph1951 gave me some interesting analysis of the relatively low power on the ETR-500 which would amoung other events explain why it has never operated into Paris despite extensive testing a few years ago. The LGV between Macon and Paris has some fairly stiff grades and even the Eurostars are under powered for this section of track. The ETR-500 with the power specifications cited could not keep with the modern TGV's on this very congested section of track.

This would also explain why there has been no effort to upgrade the Roma - Feirenza directissma of which I have very fond memories. In 1993 I video taped the journey south of Arezzo over the shoulder of the driver in ETR-460. A truely memorable experience. The speedometer registered 260+ km/h.

Hopefully the AGV will stimulate this speed upgrade.
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details

Last edited by Trainman Dave; March 18th, 2008 at 03:51 AM.
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 02:34 PM   #90
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

I wasn't trying to convince you. I just wanted to give some personal feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
tneruals you don't have to convince me. Joseph1951 gave me some interesting analysis of the relatively low power on the ETR-500 which would amoung other events explain why it has never operated into Paris despite extensive testing a few years ago. The LGV between Macon and Paris has some fairly stiff grades and even the Eurostars are under powered for this section of track. The ETR-500 with the power specifications cited could not keep with the modern TGV's on this very congested section of track.

This would also explain why there has been no effort to upgrade the Roma - Feirenza directissma of which I have very fond memories. In 1993 I video taped the journey south of Arezzo over the shoulder of the driver in ETR-460. A truely memorable experience. The speedometer registered 260+ km/h.

Hopefully the AGV will stimulate this speed upgrade.
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 01:22 AM   #91
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

A map with the number of train pairs of the 2008 timetable:

http://www.milanotrasporti.org/forum...e_BO-FI-RM.jpg

All long distance trains between Bologna, Firenze and Roma are shown, but not on the other branches, which have more trains.

EuroStar trains between Milano and Firenze run on the classic lines, taking about 2h45. InterCity trains take 3h15 but have more stops.

For Milano-Roma, actual travel times are: 4h05 EuroStar stopping only at Bologna, 4h30 other EuroStar, 5h50 InterCity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Only three ETR500 train sets have been sold abroad to Turkey, probably at a great discount, or given for free to Turkey.

Turkey has also bought a large number of ICE3 and CAF trainsets.
Are you sure? I have never heard about that.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

fŘr GŘter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 05:46 PM   #92
lasdun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 364
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by tneruals View Post
Although electrified at 3kV, the Direttissima, whose first sections date back to the late 1790s if I'm correct,
That would predate Stephenson's rocket by some 30 years? Was it cable hauled or horse pulled before?

I really liked traveling on the ETR500, very comforable and nice design. Interesting to hear about it's technical deficiencies.
lasdun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 11:17 PM   #93
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

ooops, typo.... 1970s, of course!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
That would predate Stephenson's rocket by some 30 years? Was it cable hauled or horse pulled before?

I really liked traveling on the ETR500, very comforable and nice design. Interesting to hear about it's technical deficiencies.
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 21st, 2008, 01:39 AM   #94
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

I wanted to comment on that too!! lol
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2008, 02:08 AM   #95
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

reply to cooccodrillo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A map with the number of train pairs of the 2008 timetable:

http://www.milanotrasporti.org/forum...e_BO-FI-RM.jpg


Are you sure? I have never heard about that.
Yes. It would appear that Turkey has agreed to buy three (3) ETR500. And, if I remember correctly, the Turkeys Railways has bought 10 ICE3 and 20 (?) 250km/h CAF trains.

In recent years the best trains that came out of Italy were the Etr 401 (the prototype of the pendolino), then the ETR 450-460-470-480. They were produced by Fiat Ferroviaria. They were sold to Spain, Norway, Uk, etc.

Fiat Ferroviaria was then sold to Alstom. Therefore the ETR 600 tilting train is French.

The ETR 500 is an heavy conventional train made of two locos + 8 or 12 carriages. Conceptually it is similar to the German ICE-1, but less confortable than the latter. It is grossly undepowered.
The old school of FS engineers did not want it. It was chosen for political consideration, non technical.
Indeed the first lot of ETR500 is now used as EsCity on the Milan-Venice historical route. On the 3kv cantenary, on high speed, the ETR500 can only use one locomotive, the other loco being as dead weight.

You sholuld know this, being an Italian who lives in Italy.


The ICE 3, the Velaro, the Spanish "pato" all the TGV's and the future French AVG have better performance than the ETR500. Ditto for the Japense trains such as the Nozomi. All Japanese HST have power distributed under the carriages. The Japanese double decker HST's can carry over 1300 passengers, if I remeber correctly.

The ETR500 is also flawed because in the Direttissima at 250 km/h it can only use one locomotive
(4,400Kw).
In fact, on the Direttissima its commercial max speed is 220 km/h (250km/h for late running).
For better perfomance the ETR500 needs locomotives capable of develolping 6,000 Kw, or motorisation of the two carriages next to the two locos. To add two motors in each carraige next to the locos (i.e: 2,200 Kw per carriage x 2 carriages = 4,400 Kw of extra power), would be a fairly symple operation.
Then you will have 2 locos + 8.800kw + 4 extra engines mounted on the two carriages , with each engines having a power output of 1,100 Kw per motor, for a total of 13,200 Kw or 20 Kw/ton.


The Italians have a long tradition of articulated trains with power distribution under the carriages (ETR200 (1939), ETR 250 and ETR300 Settebello (1959?), and also on the tilting trains, like the ETR450-460-470-480 , and now on Altsom ETR 600.

Unfortuntely in planning the ETR500 the did forget their long tradition af light HST's with power distribution.

These tilting trains on the Direttisima Florence-Rome outperfom easily the ETR500. On the Direttissima the old ETR450, can easily reach 275 km/h with only one pantograph active. This is not possible with the ETR500, which requires two pantographs active at speed above 250km/h.
The "old tiltings (with the tilting mechanism on working order) can, and they did, also outperfrom the ETR500 on conventional lines by +15% to 30%. Indeed, a tilting train could do, Milan-Rome in
3h and 35 minutes right now.

In 1990, on the historical line Turin-Milan the journey time with the tilting train ETR450 was 1h 12minutes.

Also, in 1990 the journeys on ETR 450 on the Bologna- Milan were scheduled in 1h and 26 minutes Now, on the Milan-Bologna historical line the journey time with the ETR500 is 1h and 42 minutes - a journey time which was achieved regularly by the ICs in 1990 with locomotives E444 + 12 carriages.

Progress? No.

Last edited by joseph1951; March 29th, 2008 at 02:16 AM. Reason: typos
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2008, 02:31 AM   #96
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by windawinda77 View Post
whay the italian high speed development is going so slowly?, with the size and saphe of italy not many lines are nedded to conect properly all italians regions...may be with the hisgh speed km that have been already opened in spain would be enough...is it more difficoult to built high speed trains in italy than in spain?

Merely for politcal reasons. The single track line Bologna-Verona was predisposed for doubling 50 years ago. The upgrading/doubling works have started over 15 years ago. The doubling and upgrading of the line is not complete. The line is only 114 km long, and it is on the Po valley, the flattest part of northern Italy.

It took over 20 years to complete the Florence-Rome HSL.

The lines in yellow appearing on the Italian map are to be completed by year 2020, at best.

The new HSLs to be open between 2008 and 2010 are the remaining section of the Turin-Milan (35 km), the Milan-Bologna, the Bologna-Florence. The Milan-Venice is upgraded only for about 30 km, from Milan to Pioltello (max speed 220 under 3 kv) and from Mestre-Padua section (about 24 km, max speed 220 km/h under 3kv). The remaining of the line to be built and electrified with th French system of 25kv ac is still, either in the costruction phase, i:e Piltello Brescia, or in the planning phase i.e: Brescia, Verona, Vicenza and Padua.
In Italy, for each high speed line, on average, 10kms/year are built.

Last edited by joseph1951; January 24th, 2009 at 10:13 PM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2008, 02:50 AM   #97
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Do you have any information about where the 240 km/h section of the line is?
Around Modena.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2008, 02:53 AM   #98
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geokioy View Post
Bravo Italia!!! Forza!!!...and some questions...
1) What is the maximum speed of ETR 500?
2) This bridge in the straight of Messina is going to be build or not? and if yes when?
Grazie...for the info
No. The buiding of the Bridge on the straight of Messina has been rejected and postponed "at infinitum", that is idefinitely. Nice rendering though, of a bridge which will not be built during my lifetime.

Last edited by joseph1951; January 24th, 2009 at 10:14 PM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2008, 02:58 AM   #99
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Actually, no HSLs have been completed, so the results are still to come!
One has been completed : the Direttisima Florence-Rome, finished after 25 years of "slow costruction".

Last edited by joseph1951; January 24th, 2009 at 10:14 PM. Reason: typos
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2008, 03:00 AM   #100
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by tneruals View Post
Just to add some clarity: the record was reached by a conventional, non-modified ETR500 high-speed train.
On reduced formation.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocitÓ

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium