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Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:23 PM   #1001
VirusC
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It seems like travel times are not so different from those of Trenitalia...
http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/npp...t&channel=tcom
Maybe also longer.
I guess those trains will succeed only with much lower prices... that is just far from reality I think...
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Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:35 PM   #1002
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This is not just about choice. A lot of tax payer money went in to the high speed railway infrastructure in Italy. It 's the duty of the government to make sure that the maximum amount of value to the taxpayer is generated from that investment. That means that government has a duty to interfere if competition ends up lowering the total value of the service offered.
This would be the same of saying government should interfere with airline schedules to maximize the use of expensively built runways and terminals, or interfere with freight and parcel services by DHL to maximize the use of highways. Which is: nonsense. The government build infrastructure for the country, and let any capable (operationally and financially) user drive/ride/fly on/over/into it.

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But you can use an United Airlines ticket. Ever heard of code sharing?
Of course. But that is because United Airlines and Lufthansa don't compete for the same markets. UA doesn't fly Frankfurt-London or München-Madrid, LH doesn't fly Chicago-Los Angeles or DEnver-Miami.

And suppose you have AA and LH flights between New YOrk and Frankfurt, they will only send passengers to the other at hefty fees on extreme cases, even if otherwise that means keeping a passenger who missed a flight another 24hours in the airport. Why can't trains operate the same way? Missed a NTV train? Wait the next one 5 hours later. Or buy only last-minute expensive tickets when you are at station. Or fork money out and buy another ticket. IT's called life under yield management.

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Of course Trenitalia will need to compensate for the loss of revenue, which might mean that elsewhere, where there is no competition, prices might go up, or services canceled. Which means less value to the tax payer funding al that beautiful but underutilized railway infrastructure...
That is just part of transportation markets. We shall get over it.
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Old November 23rd, 2011, 07:38 PM   #1003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VirusC View Post
It seems like travel times are not so different from those of Trenitalia...
http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/npp...t&channel=tcom
Maybe also longer.
I guess those trains will succeed only with much lower prices... that is just far from reality I think...
NTV is throwing its chips on providing a much more comfortable and clean train. The Ferrari on rails.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 01:47 AM   #1004
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NTV is throwing its chips on providing a much more comfortable and clean train. The Ferrari on rails.
I would not say that Trenitalia Hi sped trains are unconfortable or dirty...

Well, it would have been much more revolutionary to offer a low cost high speed service than an executive service in this particular historical period (crisis...)
Another private operator (Arenaways) tried to focus on an intercity service between Turin and Milan with higher standards, but it was more expensive than the one of Trenitalia... And now the society is failing... So good luck NTV.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 03:43 AM   #1005
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I would not say that Trenitalia Hi sped trains are unconfortable or dirty...

Well, it would have been much more revolutionary to offer a low cost high speed service than an executive service in this particular historical period (crisis...)
Another private operator (Arenaways) tried to focus on an intercity service between Turin and Milan with higher standards, but it was more expensive than the one of Trenitalia... And now the society is failing... So good luck NTV.
I agree that the Freccie are not particularly bad trains, but from everything I heard and read their interiors are posher, and have more amenities like power sockets for every seat, wider 1st class seats and free wi-fi.

Arenaways failed because they didn't have scale (just couple regional trains) and, more important, its plans were thwarted because the Ministry of Transportation didn't let it sell tickets for all relations they wanted to, at request of Lombardia region. A complicated albeit different issue.

I agree with you: a low-cost operator would be much more powerful to shake the market at this time. High-speed trains make a huge money for Trenitalia, even after expensive track fees paid to RFI. But the market for new HS rolling stock is quite heated, I think ICEs are very expensive (more than the AGVs) and the other option would have been the AnsaldoBreda V250.

NTV is reported to have gotten a huge discount on those trains from Alstom.

In any case: a true low-cost operation (tickets sold only by Internet/smartphone/SMS, reserved place on trains but not specific seats, trains with 2nd class only carriages with a 2+3 seat alignment) has potential to come to Italy. Especially if it is one focusing on major cities only, to compete with domestic air routes (like a bunch of Milano Rogoredo - Roma Tiburtina non-stop runs in less than 3h) of low-cost airlines.

Trenitalia had those "Treno OK" in 2006 I guess, but retired them shortly afterwards.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #1006
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Above all, what is interesting is that this will be true competition: no coordinated schedules, no provision for common tickets with Trenitalia, no provision to use each others' train if one is cancelled/delayed etc.[/b] Let the price wars now begin
If I commute on route that has three carriers but my ticket or period card is only valid for one. I see this system is not for people. When I miss a train then my ticket is not valid for next two trains, no I prefer other system that
is built for people.

I can buy different producer foodstuffs at any given time but I can use carrier service only when it rides. It is a big difference, and if rail competitors strength goes for riding few lines, freedom and some feeders suffer highly.

The feeder services can be still run as funded from state or local money (you know that roads are subsided) but freedom will suffer when people can't use all trains on their needed route without extra high spending(system not for people).

If I need to change train and the train I needed leaved 10min before my train arrival then I find this system is not built for people, when it is possible then train schedules must be coordinated.

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means keeping a passenger who missed a flight another 24hours in the airport.
And riding 5h by train is for you unacceptable and aged!!

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is just part of transportation markets. We shall get over it.
When other rail services suffer then they must be covered from other sources, otherwise society suffer having more congestion and less safe/environmental friendly means of transport.

High frequency, high punctuality, safety, environmental friendly, coordinated schedules, energy efficiency, accessibility(no need for driving license) are strengths of railways what must be used to get max benefits for people.

When true competition can be introduced so that other rail services don't suffer and it brings some low cost planes down from sky then it is acceptable for society. Environment win's with no price of freedom ... all win. Of course
it means that Trenitalia and NTV will co-work for bring some planes down from sky, making most out of the system affording people to use both companies services on reasonable conditions.

As it seems to me you see money, I prefer system built for people.

Last edited by ArtManDoo; November 24th, 2011 at 11:14 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 12:14 PM   #1007
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This would be the same of saying government should interfere with airline schedules to maximize the use of expensively built runways and terminals, or interfere with freight and parcel services by DHL to maximize the use of highways. Which is: nonsense.
Every single airport operator interferes with the schedules of airlines. Every single one of them. And they do this indeed with the goal of maximizing the return on the infrastructure.
And governments interfere with airline schedules too. For all kinds of reasons, but often to make airports they invested in for political reasons somehow have a purpose...
I don't think Ryanair has a lot of flights where some government is not involved in footing part of the bill...

As I said again: If railways were to pay for their own infrastructure I would not have a problem with rialways doing with the ifrastructure what they want. But it's not their infrastructure. So the owner, operator of the infrastructure has a right to interfere. And if it's public infrastructure than the governement has a duty to make sure that it serves the public.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 12:16 PM   #1008
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We shall get over it.
Let Italy go to hell. Get over it. Is that what you are saying?
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Old November 24th, 2011, 07:16 PM   #1009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
If I commute on route that has three carriers but my ticket or period card is only valid for one. I see this system is not for people. When I miss a train then my ticket is not valid for next two trains, no I prefer other system that is built for people.
The system is built to fit an unmet equilibrium of supply and demand. It is not for people. It is for transport of people. Different things.

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I can buy different producer foodstuffs at any given time but I can use carrier service only when it rides. It is a big difference, and if rail competitors strength goes for riding few lines, freedom and some feeders suffer highly.
This would be the same of saying that it is bad that if you lose your Alitalia flight Fiumicino - JFK departing 8:40, you can't take the 10:15 Continental flight on the same route. Just be on time for your trains, instead of missing it. Plan your life more, or pay for the convenience of making last-minute changes - that is the way to go.

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The feeder services can be still run as funded from state or local money (you know that roads are subsided) but freedom will suffer when people can't use all trains on their needed route without extra high spending(system not for people).
No problem at all. I don't oppose public financing of the infrastructure per se (tracks, signaling, stations), I just staunchly oppose any involvement with operations. Like road or air transport (government invests in highways and airports, but do not operate or own the cars, the planes, the trucks).

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If I need to change train and the train I needed leaved 10min before my train arrival then I find this system is not built for people, when it is possible then train schedules must be coordinated.
No. To have competition is a POWERFUL tool to induce innovation, price wars that lower costs indirectly (like putting pressuring to dismantle bloated railway unions paying train drivers as much as doctors or university teachers, for instance) etc. If there is enough supply of passengers in a route, companies will have a way to, each one, offer conveniently timed schedules.

The government should build tracks. Let private parties use those tracks, charge-free if that is the case (like un-tolled roads).

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When other rail services suffer then they must be covered from other sources, otherwise society suffer having more congestion and less safe/environmental friendly means of transport.
It is not the role of any government to promote modal shifting. It should build, at whatever acceptable cost, the infrastructure people want to use. If everyone is driving (highways congested), build more roads, screw the environment. If everyone is riding PRIVATE trains with a market logic (lines and stations crowded), build more lines, screw the local activists and birdwatchers.

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When true competition can be introduced so that other rail services don't suffer and it brings some low cost planes down from sky then it is acceptable for society. Environment win's with no price of freedom ... all win.
It's not a government's call to say that having more people using rails instead of planes and/or cars is better or worse. Governments should be "mode neutral".
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Old November 24th, 2011, 07:51 PM   #1010
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High-speed trains now with 4 service classes

Some high-speed ETR 500 trains now have 4 service classes, which is the vision from Trenitalia to its high-speed train consists, as they will all look.

From the Italian forum, I'll post some pictures of them (as released by Trenitalia)

Standard class - 272 seats per train - the present-day 2nd class. Fares will be lowered 5% and this class will see most of the promotions and discount fares.


Premium class - 134 seats per train - same width, longer pitch, more comfortable seats, complimentary drinks/snacks


Business Class 159 seats per train - meal, drinks, silent area, 115o reclination, double armrests, glass panels to increase privacy and reduce noise


Executive Class 8 seats per train - stand-alone seats only, hot meal with wine and drinks, designer-enhanced leather seats with leg rest, exclusive attendant, separate, private meeting room (on the background).


This is a video promoting the new executive class


===============

There has been some criticism because the number of the least expensive seats on each train has been reduced by 28%, though the Premium class will cost only 5% more than the standard fare of the former 2nd class. However, it will offer less discounts and "Mini" fares for advanced purchase.
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Old November 24th, 2011, 08:13 PM   #1011
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Standard class - 272 seats per train
per car
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Old November 25th, 2011, 12:29 AM   #1012
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Some pics I shot this morning and a couple of hours ago at Rome Tiburtina New High Speed Station, due to open to service next Monday.

The building which took fire in july has been completely demolished in the last days




Brand new platforms 1 and 2 east have been eventually covered

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Old November 25th, 2011, 12:29 AM   #1013
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This evening:




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Old November 25th, 2011, 12:30 AM   #1014
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You can check more on the Italian Forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...23874&page=150
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Old November 25th, 2011, 12:34 AM   #1015
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image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesk...4030/lightbox/
by eaglesky

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eaglesk...4030/lightbox/
by eaglesky

Last edited by webeagle12; November 25th, 2011 at 12:45 AM.
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Old November 25th, 2011, 10:26 AM   #1016
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Quote:
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No problem at all. I don't oppose public financing of the infrastructure per se (tracks, signaling, stations), I just staunchly oppose any involvement with operations. Like road or air transport (government invests in highways and airports, but do not operate or own the cars, the planes, the trucks).
So basically the tax payer should pay up and shut up. That's your point?
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Old November 25th, 2011, 12:25 PM   #1017
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The Tiburtina terminal is coming nicer than I had expected from the renders.

The previous station was hideous: and old, run-down terminal with dodgy claustrophobic tunnels, vandalized thoroughly, complete the opposite of the piece or work being completed there.
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Old November 25th, 2011, 12:49 PM   #1018
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Some high-speed ETR 500 trains now have 4 service classes, which is the vision from Trenitalia to its high-speed train consists, as they will all look.(...) There has been some criticism because the number of the least expensive seats on each train has been reduced by 28%, though the Premium class will cost only 5% more than the standard fare of the former 2nd class. However, it will offer less discounts and "Mini" fares for advanced purchase.
Frankly speaking this executive class business usually does no go well. DB had to abandon its slick Metropol trains between Hamburg and Cologne because demand was just not there. On Railjet the premium class just produces empty seats. The idea of a premium 2nd class is more interesting than ÖBB's idea of lumping an extra 25 Euros on top of a first class fare. Let us see if it will find exceptance in Italy or whether they will have to be sold at the old rates soon.
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Old November 25th, 2011, 01:24 PM   #1019
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Frankly speaking this executive class business usually does no go well. DB had to abandon its slick Metropol trains between Hamburg and Cologne because demand was just not there. On Railjet the premium class just produces empty seats. The idea of a premium 2nd class is more interesting than ÖBB's idea of lumping an extra 25 Euros on top of a first class fare. Let us see if it will find exceptance in Italy or whether they will have to be sold at the old rates soon.
I made some simulation on Trenitalia website for services using those trains. The difference between 2nd class - standard and 2nd class - premium is low, something like 10%-15% of the total fare. What I think they missed is to offer quiet seats (a car or part of a car where noise is to be kept to a minimum, no cell phone use at all) on 2nd Premium.

As for the Executive class, I think it is more appealing on long trips, or at least it is an attempt from Trenitalia to make longer trips by train (such as Napoli-Milano) more appealing to the business traveler.

Problem is: to fork € 219 instead of ~€ 80-100 seems a bit too much for most companies budgeting travel.
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Old November 27th, 2011, 10:46 AM   #1020
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It's not a government's call to say that having more people using rails instead of planes and/or cars is better or worse. Governments should be "mode neutral".
What if the voters order the government not to be "mode neutral"?

For example: The voters of the city of Basel ordered their government to reduce car traffic in the city by 10%. Should the government ignore that?
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