ITALY | High Speed Rail

[Hubert Pollak]

Originally Posted by K_

I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo.

I see that it is already coordinated (but it could be improved when TGV will start use high speed line Turin - Milano).

Now I understand why the choose MILAN P GARIBALDI for Paris - Milano trains.

TGV:
PARIS GARE DE LYON 7:49
MILAN P GARIBALDI 14:45

ITALO:
MILAN P GARIBALD 15:19

TGV:
PARIS GARE DE LYON 10:41
MILAN P GARIBALDI 17:46

ITALO:
MILAN P GARIBALD 18:03 or 18:19

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

It's interesting how they manage to be faster then Trenitalia on Milano - Napoli despite having two stops in Milano (with their services being better integrated in the Milano transport network). This is possible because they don't go in to Roma Termina, but in stead use Rome Tiburtina. When is Trenitalia expected to to the same thing?

I wonder if SNCF will coordinate it's Paris - Torino - Milano schedule with Italo. SNCF owns 25% of NTV, and coopetating with them for France - Italy traffic seems logical. NTV could sell SNCF tickets at their offices too.

I guess they save time by not avoiding Milano Centrale and Roma Termini approaches, which are woefully slow.

The is a major interlock/trouble ahead of Roma Tiburtina they avoid as well.

Many services with a terminus in Roma will depart/arrive from Roma Ostiense though.

[Suburbanist]

One can easily see NTV padded the schedules to claim on-time performance.

Scheduled layovers:

Milano Rogoredo - 2 or 3 minutes
Bologna - 3 minutes
Firenze S.M.N. - 8 minutes
Roma Tiburtina - 7 to 13 minutes
Napoli Centrale - 12 minutes

38 minutes lost standing in intermediate stations between Milano P. Garibaldi and Salerno! One can also see how termini stations are horrible for schedules of trains merely calling there.

The problem in Firenze will be eradicated in the medium term, though, with a new underground high-speed station + urban bypass that will slash Bologna-Roma travel times by 16 minutes (it includes a massive underground sector underneath the city + underground station to a total cost around € 2,7 billion). It will be übercool, underground stations are the best.

[Coccodrillo]

Unfortunately Bologna HS station (directly under the existing one) and the Firenze one (aound 500 m from Santa Maria Novella) will only have four tracks.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

Unfortunately Bologna HS station (directly under the existing one) and the Firenze one (aound 500 m from Santa Maria Novella) will only have four tracks.

But they will be HSR-only through stations. I guess that suffice (I think they should have at least 1 extra track for train reversal in each direction as well).

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

But they will be HSR-only through stations. I guess that suffice (I think they should have at least 1 extra track for train reversal in each direction as well).

Bologna and Firenze is not where you want to reverse trains. Trains should be scheduled through as much as possible.

I can imagine however that once one train per hour stops there RFI will declare the station at capacity and will force private operators to use the old station...

[GENIUS LOCI]

Turin, Porta Susa station

Originally Posted by derit

Foto di Michele D'Ottavio... qui la galleria competa http://archivemood.photoshelter.com/...000QO7yjJsSeAk

[Railfan]

[KingNick]

APA0076 5 WA 0159 Mo, 19.Mär 2012

Verkehr/Bahn/Industrie/Auto/Italien
Ferrari-Chef will mit Zügen von Italien nach Deutschland fahren

Utl.: Privatbahn-Projekt startet dieses Jahr zunächst in Italien =

München (APA/AFP) - Der Chef des italienischen Luxusautoherstellers Ferrari will mit einem privaten Bahnunternehmen langfristig in den Zugverkehr zwischen Italien und Deutschland einsteigen. Zunächst plane er allerdings den baldigen Start der ersten drei Verbindungen innerhalb Italiens, sagte Luca di Montezemolo der "Süddeutschen Zeitung" vom Montag. Die Züge von Neapel nach Mailand und Venedig sowie von Turin nach Mailand sollten nach Ostern auf die Schienen gebracht werden.

"Wir wollen die Liberalisierung der Hochgeschwindigkeitsnetze nutzen und haben das teuerste und ambitionierteste Privatprojekt in Italien der vergangenen zehn Jahre angestoßen", sagte Montezemolo.
Auch Verbindungen über die Grenzen seien geplant. "Von Mailand und Venedig nach München oder nach Wien - das wäre fantastisch. Wir haben das beste italienische Essen an Bord, ein tolles Kino, einen Waggon fürs Relaxen. Solche Züge haben Sie noch nicht gesehen", warb der Ferrari-Chef für sein Projekt.
(Schluss) ivn/ags

Basically Montezemolo told "Süddeutsche" he wants to take advantage of HSR deregulation in Europe and plans to connect Munich and Vienna with Milan and Venice.

Austria's part over the Brenner is already equipped with ETCS L2 and about to enter service by December this year. ETCS L2 won't be seen on Austria's Southern Railway before 2021 (or even later) though. TBH without the big projects (Koralm Railway and Semmering Base Tunnel) being finished, Vienna - Venice is highly unattractive by train.

[Suburbanist]

Indeed. There are even no more fast(ish) trains running between Wien and Venezia.

[Pironi]

OBB would love to run more trains (apart from EN) between Vienna and Venice, but FS is blocking heavily. SBB, DB and SNCF just have the same problems with FS.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Pironi

OBB would love to run more trains (apart from EN) between Vienna and Venice, but FS is blocking heavily. SBB, DB and SNCF just have the same problems with FS.

RFI blocking OBB? Aren't issues related to safety and the deployment of the SCMT protocol?

[Pironi]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

RFI blocking OBB? Aren't issues related to safety and the deployment of the SCMT protocol?

They did that on many occasions already, where it was not just about safety.

OBB's 1216 is certified for Italy, so safety can not be a real argument here. SCMT is further more compatible with ETCS L1 locos.

[K_]

Originally Posted by KingNick

Basically Montezemolo told "Süddeutsche" he wants to take advantage of HSR deregulation in Europe and plans to connect Munich and Vienna with Milan and Venice.

Austria's part over the Brenner is already equipped with ETCS L2 and about to enter service by December this year. ETCS L2 won't be seen on Austria's Southern Railway before 2021 (or even later) though. TBH without the big projects (Koralm Railway and Semmering Base Tunnel) being finished, Vienna - Venice is highly unattractive by train.

One thing they could do is just cooperate with the current DB/OeBB Brenner operation. OeBB could also run trains again from Villach to Venezia (finally putting that new line the Italians build to good use) and coordinate timetables on both the Brenner and Pontebbana routes with Italo. And then sell through tickets. Italo is opening offices in all major railway stations. They could offer DB, OeBB, SNCF etc. to sell their tickets too.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

One thing they could do is just cooperate with the current DB/OeBB Brenner operation. OeBB could also run trains again from Villach to Venezia (finally putting that new line the Italians build to good use) and coordinate timetables on both the Brenner and Pontebbana routes with Italo. And then sell through tickets. Italo is opening offices in all major railway stations. They could offer DB, OeBB, SNCF etc. to sell their tickets too.

Why should Italo devalue its high effort to brand itself, at least in the Italian market, as a state-of-the-art service with THE most modern trains in Europe, a World apart from Trenitalia, then sell code-share tickets with crappy rolling stock from the late 1980s that OBB/DB uses on the Brennero route? Pointless.

It should run the AGVs all the way to Wien and München!

[Pironi]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

[..]

It should run the AGVs all the way to Wien and München!

For that Italo would need more trains, or they have to thin out their service in Italy. A code-share agreement with OBB/DB (they formed a JV for the Brenner, right?) seems to be a great idea to check whether there's demand for that service or not.

[Galactic]

Originally Posted by Pironi

For that Italo would need more trains, or they have to thin out their service in Italy. A code-share agreement with OBB/DB (they formed a JV for the Brenner, right?) seems to be a great idea to check whether there's demand for that service or not.

Mere thinning of their domestic schedule would not be enough, as the trainsets currently owned by NTV aren't equipped to operate in Austria or Germany. They have 3 kV and 25 kV power systems, while the voltage of the Austrian and German electrification is 15 kV.

[Pironi]

You sure the AGV could not run at 15 kv as well? I mean it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days and pretty much all new locos can run at 15 kv. I am not aware of any that can not.

[Silly_Walks]

Originally Posted by Pironi

it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days

It is? I would have thought 3kV or 1.5 kV or 25kV.

[Pironi]

Originally Posted by Silly_Walks

It is? I would have thought 3kV or 1.5 kV or 25kV.

25 kV is common in EE, yes, but apart from those kinda unimportant countries, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Norway are using 15 kV. Those countries form the biggest railway market in Europe.