ITALY | High Speed Rail

[Silly_Walks]

Originally Posted by Pironi

25 kV is common in EE, yes, but apart from those kinda unimportant countries, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Norway are using 15 kV. Those countries form the biggest railway market in Europe.

I was asking if 15 kV is the most common voltage, as was stated. You haven't really answered that, besides some remarks about unimportant countries (apparently the UK, France, Spain, etc. are unimportant compared to Sweden and Norway?). Please provide some hard numbers proving your claim.

[Coccodrillo]

The AGV is available for all 4 major European systems (1.5-3-15-25 kV), but the NTV version is only for 3 kV DC and 25 kV AC.

[chornedsnorkack]

15 kV is in 2 compact contiguous networks.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland have 26 000 km 15 kV network. And Scandinavia has 10 000 km.

Denmark has mere 620 km electrified rail, and that split between 1500 V DC suburban network and 25 kV AC. Should Denmark change their AC network to 15 kV, to create continuous through network between Scandinavia and Germany?

[K_]

Originally Posted by Pironi

You sure the AGV could not run at 15 kv as well? I mean it's the most common Voltage in Europe these days and pretty much all new locos can run at 15 kv. I am not aware of any that can not.

The problem is not the voltage, its the AC frequency. The 15KvAC systems in Germany and Austria run at 16.6 Hz, which means you need a heavier transformer. You don't put a heavier transformer in a high speed train unless you really need it. Alternatively you can use the 25Kv transformer, but accept a lower performance as with the Thalys or TGV POS sets in Germany. However you don't want lower power when you intend to cross the Alps...
Locomotives now usually get the heavier universal transformer as standard as weight is not such a critical issue there.

this might change in the future however. ABB is working on what they call a "Power Electronic Traction Transformer". Here the overhead supply first gets converted to high frequency AC so a much lighter and smaller transformer can be used. This is basically the same working principle as with a universal power supply as you get with your mobile phone (noticed how light these have become lately) but scaled up to the kinds of power requirements for railway traction. If they manage to develop this in a competive product the different overhead supply systems in Europe have effectively ceased to be an issue.

In the mean time DB has ordered lots of new trainsets from Siemens, and these so called "ICx" sets are supposed to be certified for Italy too, so I expect we will see them on the Brenner ECs too. And then Suburbanists' objection against "crappy germany stock" becomes even more moot than it already was, and there is really nothing standing in between a cooperation of NTV with OeBB-Italia...

That might prompt Trenitalia however to get in to the transalpine market itself though. Nothing wrong with that however.

[K_]

Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack

15 kV is in 2 compact contiguous networks.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland have 26 000 km 15 kV network. And Scandinavia has 10 000 km.

Denmark has mere 620 km electrified rail, and that split between 1500 V DC suburban network and 25 kV AC. Should Denmark change their AC network to 15 kV, to create continuous through network between Scandinavia and Germany?

At one time it has indeed been suggested that 15Kv 16.6 Hz would have been a better choice for Denmark. But that is really not that important now.

[Suburbanist]

I don't think NTV/Italo and OBB should cooperate because I'd rather have them fiercely competing against each other and pushing for more direct trains instead of the stop-15-times-between-Wien-and-Venezia that we used to have.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

I don't think NTV/Italo and OBB should cooperate because I'd rather have them fiercely competing against each other and pushing for more direct trains instead of the stop-15-times-between-Wien-and-Venezia that we used to have.

Can't companies operating in a free market not decide for themselves what it is in their interest to do? Cooperation is common you know, and a very capitalist thing to do.
And a "stop 15 times between Wien and Venezia" type of service is quite usefull to the people living in one of those 15 stops. Notice how all but three of Italo's services on Milano - Roma stop in Bologna and Firenze... It's especially this possibility to serve more than two locations with one vehicle that is a major advantage trains offer.

[Suburbanist]

Too much cooperation = cartel, trust. These things are usually frowned upon, or should rightly be.

[KingNick]

Originally Posted by Silly_Walks

I was asking if 15 kV is the most common voltage, as was stated. You haven't really answered that, besides some remarks about unimportant countries (apparently the UK, France, Spain, etc. are unimportant compared to Sweden and Norway?). Please provide some hard numbers proving your claim.

You see on the map, that more countries have 25 kV, but they are by far not as important on the train market, as those with 15 kV. Therefore it would just be wise for Alstom to support that Voltage.

[KingNick]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Too much cooperation = cartel, trust. These things are usually frowned upon, or should rightly be.

A co-operation between NTV and OBB/DB would finally put some pressure on FS to offer international services again.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Too much cooperation = cartel, trust. These things are usually frowned upon, or should rightly be.

Only of the cooperation is to the disadvantage of the customers.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

Only of the cooperation is to the disadvantage of the customers.

That is the major argument of any law firm trying to justify a merge or acquisition, or to water down cartelization concerns.

Railways in Italy are not some special case of that.

The only way to wrestle all price controls from the government to market mechanism is to abolish the de-facto monopoly of Trenitalia.

[makita09]

Competition can = monopoly too you know, if it results in competitors going bust. For example, my home town used to have two bus companies until de-regulation. Fierce competition ensued, pushing down prices, until one went bust.

Now we have an expensive monopoly on our bus services. Fan-bloody-tastic, hooray for Reaganomics.

[Suburbanist]

That is dumping. Another misconduct that should be avoided.

But ANYTHING but State-appointed schedules and prices is better for transportation of passengers. Even complete de-regulation.

[K_]

Originally Posted by makita09

Competition can = monopoly too you know, if it results in competitors going bust. For example, my home town used to have two bus companies until de-regulation. Fierce competition ensued, pushing down prices, until one went bust.

Now we have an expensive monopoly on our bus services. Fan-bloody-tastic, hooray for Reaganomics.

OK, but if the incumbent is now extracting monopoly rents, why aren't there any new companies starting? Or is the barrier to entry to high? If that is the case pleas blame the government.

[Vaud]

Originally Posted by K_

OK, but if the incumbent is now extracting monopoly rents, why aren't there any new companies starting? Or is the barrier to entry to high? If that is the case pleas blame the government.

Why the government? there's a part of business administration and economics sciences that deals with calculating the optimum price a company must set in order to maximize profits while keeping entry costs too high for a competitor, it's nothing new; what do you want to the government to do? force the remaining company to increase prices so that investing in the business makes sense to other companies? that's hardly justifiable to voters

[MarcVD]

Originally Posted by Silly_Walks

I was asking if 15 kV is the most common voltage, as was stated. You haven't really answered that, besides some remarks about unimportant countries (apparently the UK, France, Spain, etc. are unimportant compared to Sweden and Norway?). Please provide some hard numbers proving your claim.

This map is not entirely correct :
- Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, and Italy have some 25 kV too now
- South of France also has some 25 kV (TGV, line to Nice...)
- Russia is a mix of 3 kV= and 25 kV 50 Hz
- Iran has some 25 kV 50 Hz too
- Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan are electrified, but don't know if 3 or 25 kV
- Morocco is electrified 3 kV=
- Algeria too, probably 25 kV but not sure

Multi-systems electric locs are much cheaper to buy nowadays so new
electrifications in DC technolofy have become almost non-existant. All
former DC countries now electrify in 25kV. There is however no real
business case yet to convert existing DC systems to 25kV AC. If this ever
happens, then 15kV countries will really become a minority.

[Ale Sasso]

No, in Italy our new electrifications are at 3000 V c.c.; 25 kV c.a. is only for HSLs.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Ale Sasso

No, in Italy our new electrifications are at 3000 V c.c.; 25 kV c.a. is only for HSLs.

They should electrify major routes (like the Adriatic line) in 25kV AC

[Coccodrillo]

@Ale: don't bother to reply him, Suburbanist hates trains and railways projects, except when they are costly and with limited utility (so to complain, later, for the "money wasted on railways")