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Old March 25th, 2012, 12:32 PM   #1161
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@Ale: don't bother to reply him, Suburbanist hates trains and railways projects, except when they are costly and with limited utility (so to complain, later, for the "money wasted on railways")
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Old March 25th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #1162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
@Ale: don't bother to reply him, Suburbanist hates trains and railways projects, except when they are costly and with limited utility (so to complain, later, for the "money wasted on railways")
Who said I hate trains?

I like trains, the modern, fast, state-of-the art ones operating over equally modern, state-of-the-art infrastructure such as Italian high speed lines. I actually like the idea of "airplane-like" train systems a lot. What I dislike are slow, money-losing regional trains, idiotic timetables forced to follow some old convention that time is measured in minutes and hours, shared-space tramways (or any shared used of any kind t.b.h.) etc.
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Old March 26th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #1163
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Well, you don't need plane-like system to go to a nearby town? don't you? Different distances, different population density - that brings in different ways of ticketin, passenger cabin organisation, etc.
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Old March 26th, 2012, 04:00 PM   #1164
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Today NTV trains enter service competing with Trenitalia on HS railways

Here Italo (NTV train) testing at Milano Certosa at the begginning of March
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Old March 26th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #1165
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Today NTV trains enter service competing with Trenitalia on HS railways
Not really...
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Old March 27th, 2012, 08:52 AM   #1166
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Not really...
More precisely: NTV got its final certification. They can run trains now any moment they want. It is entirely up to NTV, which says it will start running from mid-April after Easter.
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Old March 27th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #1167
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More precisely: NTV got its final certification. They can run trains now any moment they want. It is entirely up to NTV, which says it will start running from mid-April after Easter.
So Italy does not have annual timetables with assigned slots for every company?
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Old March 27th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #1168
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So Italy does not have annual timetables with assigned slots for every company?
RFI had gotten its slots before... the lines on which it is going to operate are far from full or congested...
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Old March 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #1169
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NTV got its slot with the timetable change in December 2011, but not the permission to oeprate, so these slots were existing but unused.
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Old March 28th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #1170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
NTV got its slot with the timetable change in December 2011, but not the permission to oeprate, so these slots were existing but unused.
Already thought so, thanks. Timetables usually don't change in April.
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Old March 29th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #1171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Who said I hate trains?

I like trains, the modern, fast, state-of-the art ones operating over equally modern, state-of-the-art infrastructure such as Italian high speed lines. I actually like the idea of "airplane-like" train systems a lot. What I dislike are slow, money-losing regional trains, idiotic timetables forced to follow some old convention that time is measured in minutes and hours, shared-space tramways (or any shared used of any kind t.b.h.) etc.
You really must not like Italo then, as they have decided to run trains at hourly intervals...
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Old March 30th, 2012, 02:17 AM   #1172
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I don't think regional trains necessarily lose money, at least in here they're always packed. Plus I don't think what matters is a single line but the network as a whole... maybe long-distance trains wouldn't be profitable if they didn't get connecting passangers from other services, for the same reason a flight between Frankfurt and Los Angeles wouldn't work without lufthansa's network to provide it with more passangers than the city of frankfurt alone has.

By the way Suburbanist, out of curiosity, how do YOU measure time? :p
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Old March 30th, 2012, 11:48 AM   #1173
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I don't think regional trains necessarily lose money, at least in here they're always packed.
Average loading of regional trains in Switzerland is about 20%, so if you are seeing them packed your observations aren't typical. AFAIK in Switzerland about 30% average loading is needed for a service to break even, hence regional services need subsidies. The justification for this subsidy is that regional services reduce peak demand for road space. That has all kinds of positive externalities, which are more than worth what it costs.
For example, in Switzerland about a third of all commuting is by train. Looking at major centers like Bern and Zürich it's even more. In Zürich about 2/3 of people commuting to the city use public transit, and about everyone who communities within the city does also, with the exception of those who walk or cycle. Without public transit the number of cars on the streets in Zürich would quadruple, which would impose a tremendous cost on the city, and reduce its radioactivity immensely. For that reason subsidizing public transit is justifiable, and even a very smart thing to do. In some parts of Italy they are starting to get this too...
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Old March 30th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #1174
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I said necessarily and by here I didn't mean the whole Switzerland but the trains I take almost everyday which are the ones that run along lake geneva's coast between Lausanne and Genève; in fact demand is so high they are introducing for these services double-deck 400m trains this year to increase insufficient capacity. Of course not all services have such a high demand, but then it comes into play exactly what you mention about positive external effects.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 03:04 PM   #1175
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In some parts of Italy they are starting to get this too...
Why do you say this? The public transport network in most cities might not be the densest or the most efficient, but public transport in Italy has always been heavily subsidized by the state and local governments. Regional trains, buses, trams or metros are very cheap compared to most of Europe.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #1176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
idiotic timetables forced to follow some old convention that time is measured in minutes and hours
How do you like your timetables?
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Old March 30th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #1177
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NTV will present its serivce the 12th of April, then tickets will be sold starting from the 15th anf the first train will run on the 28th, initially only between Milan and Naples.

http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/...vp.php?id=2867

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Regional trains, buses, trams or metros are very cheap compared to most of Europe.
That's sometimes false. For those who read Italian, here are some urban leged explained (I don't translate as these fares are not valid anymore).

Then outside Italy it is soemtimes possible to save with subscriptions, for example in Switzerland children between 12 and 16 travel for free*, while in Italy they pay full fare.

*actually they have to travel with a parent or a grand-parent and they must have a yearly subscription costing around 15€, but beside that for them it's free
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Old March 30th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #1178
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I'm well aware of the urban legends related to the Italian public transport. For instance, it is a urban legend that the Italian railways are cheaper than the railways of other countries: they are not, and sometimes they are even costlier.

But with urban public transport it is an entirely different story, and calling it a urban legend is somewhat bizarre. Just compare the fares of bus or metro tickets in Rome or Milan with those in London, Paris, even Berlin, not some provincial French town. Both single fares and travel passes.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #1179
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Two things:
1.Are costs competitive with rest of Europe
2.How reliable is the Italian railway network? I read some bad things about Trenitalia.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #1180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Two things:
1.Are costs competitive with rest of Europe
The costs of what? Long distance trains, commuter trains, urban transport?

Quote:
2.How reliable is the Italian railway network? I read some bad things about Trenitalia.
Not very reliable compared to the German, Dutch or Swiss railways.
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