daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 20th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #1241
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

FS press release (in Italian): http://www.fsnews.it/cms/v/index.jsp...008916f90aRCRD

Bombardier press release (in English): http://www.bombardier.com/en/transpo...01260d802403c8
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 21st, 2012, 12:16 AM   #1242
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Would RENFE have sold these if asked?
I dont' know.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2012, 03:03 PM   #1243
Ki2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Nope. It is an entirely Bombardier project. The ETR 1000 is a slight more poweful version of the Zefiro300 and Ansaldobreda will only assemble the interiors (i.e: it will screw to floor the passenger seats).

The technical specifications are:

acceleration up to 0,7 m/s2 (but up to what speed?) ) - 360 km/h in 540 seconds (Spanish Velaro 0-350 km/h in 380 seconds, TGV Duplex 0-320 km/h in 380 seconds).

Vmax in revenue 360 km/h (at the moment not exploitable on the newly built Italian HSLs which have been built for a revenue top speed of 300 km/h but only on very short stretches.
Weight 500 tons (with passenger on board).
Carrying capacity: about 500 passenger = 1 passenger for about 950 kg of train weight.
(TGV Duplex: 1 passenger/ 0,7 tons of train).
Also it features the twindex type of tilting, limited to 1.5 degree cant deficiency.

The ETR100 ( alias Zefiro 300+ Moretti version) is a train planned entirely by Bombardier and it represents Bombardier answer to Velaros, ICE X, TGVs, Talgo 380, Talgo 350, AGV first and second generation, etc.
It does not have the lightness and acceleration of the Talgos 350 & 380, and it has an unfavourable passenger/weight ratio, but on the rendering it looks nice, it is expensive, and for the moment, it exists only on paper.

Renfe has an excess of about 70 High speed trains (Velaro, TGV Talgos 350 and talgo 250) which have never been on revenue service and are maintained in pristine conditions.

Mr Moretti could have bought these 70 High speed trains with a substantial discounts.

Futhermore the HSTs that Renfe bought in excessive quantities are well tested an their technical envelopes have been perfected over the years, whilst the Zefiro 300+ (or ETR1000) is still an open and untested project, which looks very nice on paper,..... but it is a known fact that new prototypes suffer from teething problems.

Personally, I would have bought these new and redundant Spanish Velaro, Spanish TGV Duplex, Spanish Talgo 250 & 350 with a 40-50% discounts.

The Zefiro 300+ FrecciaMoretti (alias ETR1000) is meant to be used by Mr Moretti to conquer the Very High speed paneuropean business travelling outside the Italian borders at speeds up to 360 km/h, whilst in Italy this train will be travelling at a top speed of 300 km/h.

Unfortunately for Mr Moretti, the (in)famous CEO of Trenitalia , France , Spain, Germany, Switzerland, UK etc, rail administrations have no intention of running HSTs at 360 km/h in the near future.

As a matter of fact Spanish , French, German, Austrian, UK railways administrations think that running at 360 km/h is uneconomical with the present technology.

In reality it's absolutely not a project entirely developed by Bombardier. If you do some reseach on the Bombardier website they state a 42 % involvement in the project.

If you compare this with other Euorpean constructed trains Bombardier had an 18% involvement in the TGV project, 27-49 % involvement in the German ICE project (depending on the model) and a 40% involvement in the Spanish AVE project.

Bombardier is the biggest and most important constructor of high speed trains in the world and they have been a very important participant in this project. But saying that the ETR 1000 is entirely Bombardier's is absolutely misleading.

The structure is also completely constructed in Italy where as the exterior design and interior design is done by Bertone. I think and hope that this will prove a turning point for the Italian railway industry that once ruled the world.

Can you also please specify the source of your technical facts?
Ki2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2012, 09:07 PM   #1244
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galactic

All high-speed lines in Europe? I must say I don't believe this statement. Unfortunately I couldn't find the exact specs for the ETR 1000, but not only would it have to be quad-voltage, it would have to be equipped for the myriad of signalling systems in use on HSLs all over Europe (TVM, KVB, TBL and LZB in addition to ETCS and SCMT). If you also count the 200 km/h lines, you get more signalling systems and the Iberian gauge, and if you count Russia, you get KLUB-U and the Russian gauge.

I think that a train that runs on "all high-speed lines" won't be made before 2020, even if you only count 300 km/h lines in Western Europe.
Building a train that can run under multiple overhead voltages is trivial nowadays. And by the time these trains are delivered all of Europe will be on ETCS :-)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2012, 09:33 PM   #1245
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21248

what about trains that can run under CC and AC? I think that requires a big converse.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2012, 02:05 AM   #1246
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki2 View Post
In reality it's absolutely not a project entirely developed by Bombardier. If you do some reseach on the Bombardier website they state a 42 % involvement in the project.

If you compare this with other Euorpean constructed trains Bombardier had an 18% involvement in the TGV project, 27-49 % involvement in the German ICE project (depending on the model) and a 40% involvement in the Spanish AVE project.

Bombardier is the biggest and most important constructor of high speed trains in the world and they have been a very important participant in this project. But saying that the ETR 1000 is entirely Bombardier's is absolutely misleading.

The structure is also completely constructed in Italy where as the exterior design and interior design is done by Bertone. I think and hope that this will prove a turning point for the Italian railway industry that once ruled the world.

Can you also please specify the source of your technical facts?
Not true. Unelsss they recycle the carriages of the unsold Albatros V250 trains, (Aka Fyra 250), the design is entirely based on Bombardier Zefiro Platforrm (Train Versions 250-300-360-380 km/h, the Zefiros 250 and 380 have already sold in China).

The engines are asyncronous motors made by bombardier. The Flexx bogies are made by Bombardier (they have also been used on the Regina types of trains...) te Mitrac traction system is made by Bombardier, the somewhat semi -tilting mechanism (WAKO SYSTEM) mounted on the ETR1000 is made by Bombardier and, the same mechanism it is also mounted on the Swiss Twindexx... also made by Bombardier ....

The ETR1000 seats are made in Italy and wil be mounted on the train in situ by AnsaldoBreda.


Bombardier needs to have both a HST and a VHST platformS for the European market and it is using Italy as to experiment with its basic Zefiro V300, V300+ platform.

In recent times Bombardier has made toO many acquisitions of european company, which manufacture trains, and at the moment these companies are working at 40 per cent of their full capacity.

When it comes to AnsaldoBreda, this company has had two recent disastrous experiences: the IC4 and the Albatros V250..

On the other hand Hitachi has built the Javelin for the UK market and has recently been awarded the £4,8 blllion contract* for the IEPs (* If I remember correctly).

In Europe, in the near future in the the HSTs market there will be fierce competitions with new trainS and new entrants (Hitachi, BombardIer).

Anyway going back to the "new" ETR1000 Zefiro Moretti (or Zefiretti) this train, like all the other new trains built beforse this one, will certainly have teething problems .

With regard to the technical specifications so far made known the train does not appear sto be expeceptional: its accelerations is not at all exceptional (0 km/h to 360 km/h in 9 minutes = 540 seconds), the train appears to be too heavy (500 tons) and carry 1 passenger for about 1.08 tons of train, whilst the TGV Duplex carrry 1 pax / 0.700 of train. (total 462 pax + 1 invalid).
Also, both Bombardier and Mr Moretti, the present Trenitalia Baff.on General have been very secretive about the capacity of this train to circulate on HLS with 2.5% or 3.5% , or indeed 4% ......


The first series of AGV sold to NTV weighs 375 tons and carry 450-460 pasenger. Compared to the standard 11 carriages AGV which has 6 motorised carriages the NTV series has only 5 motorised carriages and it will have a better acceleration curve than that of the Zefiretti ETR1000. The 2nd and 3rd series of the AGV will certainly be somewhat more surprising, and the Talgo Avril 380 in "jumbo version" appears to be very promising (600-700 pax in economy seating) it weight is 315 tons, it has an output of 12,000 kW , and a top speed 380 km/h....




The Italian Railways never ruled the world.

Finally I woluld like to remember to you that on the SSC Italian section I WAS THE FIRST FORUIMER TO WRITE THAT THE NEW ITALIAN TRAIN WAS GOING TO BE A ZEFIRO V300, V300+ well OVER 2 YEARS BEFORE THE OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT.

At the time i did explain the reasons. Also, since 2009 I have repeatedly posted in the Italian section of SSC the technical specifications of the Zefiro Range, starting with the very first brochure with the carriages designed by Zagato.

The PDFs have been on line fo several years by now. So move your lower back.

i

Last edited by joseph1951; May 4th, 2013 at 07:12 PM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2012, 03:58 AM   #1247
.franco
sioperro de l'ananas...
 
.franco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 129
Likes (Received): 0

Plus on est de fous, plus on rit


Last edited by .franco; September 1st, 2012 at 12:34 AM.
.franco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2012, 10:11 AM   #1248
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
what about trains that can run under CC and AC? I think that requires a big converse.
Do you mean DC and AC? If so, its not difficult, or expensive.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 25th, 2012, 10:52 AM   #1249
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
what about trains that can run under CC and AC? I think that requires a big converse.
A DC only train will be cheaper (and probably lighter) than an AC train, as you don't need a transformer. However an AC DC multi system train is only marginally more expensive than a pure AC train.
And with concepts like ABB's PETT the overhead supply becomes completely irrelevant.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 27th, 2012, 10:44 AM   #1250
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,069
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
The engines are asyncronous permanent motors made by bombardier.
I suppose you meant "Asynchronous motors with permanent magnets" ?
That does not exist. Synchronous motors can use permanent magnets
instead of a magnetic coil in the rotor. This is useful because it avoids
gliding contacts (to feed the coil). But the rotor of an asynchronous
motor does not require anything like that, it only uses the rotating field
generated by the stator coils.

Synchronous motors with permanent magnets were first used by Alstom
for the AGV and were prototyped in the TGV set that broke the last speed
record.
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2012, 09:52 AM   #1251
JB Colbert
In the Grid.
 
JB Colbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 556
Likes (Received): 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
...
The Italian Railways never ruled the world.
...
Do you know Pendolino?!?
JB Colbert no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 03:26 AM   #1252
rheintram
yeah, whatever
 
rheintram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,601
Likes (Received): 924

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Colbert View Post
Do you know Pendolino?!?
You mean the trainsets that are always broken?
rheintram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 06:59 AM   #1253
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21248

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
You mean the trainsets that are always broken?
Pendolinos always broken?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 10:04 AM   #1254
JB Colbert
In the Grid.
 
JB Colbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 556
Likes (Received): 18

Don't care about them...
JB Colbert no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 01:39 PM   #1255
.franco
sioperro de l'ananas...
 
.franco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 129
Likes (Received): 0

Un avenir durable pour les transports européens...



Last edited by .franco; August 31st, 2012 at 04:26 PM.
.franco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #1256
Gadiri
Registered User
 
Gadiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Paris-Agadir-Guelmim
Posts: 52,723
Likes (Received): 6980

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
...

Renfe has an excess of about 70 High speed trains (Velaro, TGV Talgos 350 and talgo 250) which have never been on revenue service and are maintained in pristine conditions.

...

Personally, I would have bought these new and redundant Spanish Velaro, Spanish TGV Duplex, Spanish Talgo 250 & 350 with a 40-50% discounts.

...
What do you call Spanish TGV Duplex ?

Renfe has an excess of 70 HST ? Give me a link please.
__________________


FBI Says 94% of Terrorist Attacks in the US Since 1980 Are by Non-Muslims


Gadiri no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2012, 12:29 AM   #1257
.franco
sioperro de l'ananas...
 
.franco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 129
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post

The Italian Railways never ruled the world.
Are you sure?
.franco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2012, 01:02 AM   #1258
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post

1 -
I suppose you meant "Asynchronous motors with permanent magnets" ?
That does not exist. Synchronous motors can use permanent magnets
instead of a magnetic coil in the rotor. This is useful because it avoids
gliding contacts (to feed the coil). But the rotor of an asynchronous
motor does not require anything like that, it only uses the rotating field
generated by the stator coils.

2 -
Synchronous motors with permanent magnets were first used by Alstom
for the AGV and were prototyped in the TGV set that broke the last speed
record.
1-
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy...w=1016&bih=537


2-

Yes.

Last edited by joseph1951; September 1st, 2012 at 01:07 AM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2012, 01:13 AM   #1259
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
1
What do you call Spanish TGV Duplex ?
2
Renfe has an excess of 70 HST ? Give me a link please.
Gadiri,

1-
This was a typo : meant Spanish TGV.
2-
I have read them both in the Spanish press, and on the Spanish SSC Railways sections, just a few weeks ago.
You might try the Spanish SSC Railways Forums.

Unfortunately, at the moment , I am too ill to do some detailed research on the subjetc, and I will send you some detailed links as soon as I feel better.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2012, 01:24 AM   #1260
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
1
What do you call Spanish TGV Duplex ?
2
Renfe has an excess of 70 HST ? Give me a link please.
Gadiri,

1-
This was a typo : meant Spanish TGV.
2-
I have read them both in the Spanish press, and on the Spanish SSC Railways sections, just a few weeks ago.
You might try the Spanish SSC Railways Forums.

Unfortunately, at the moment , I am too ill to do some detailed research on the subjetc, and I will send you some detailed links as soon as I feel better.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium