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Old June 28th, 2013, 05:32 PM   #1501
Rayancito
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you go a handulf of pages back on this thread you will see some good coverage of the opening of the station with pictures.
Nodo the Bolonia i believe it is a network, not a station. I will like to have a map of the nodo.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 05:38 PM   #1502
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Something like this one (sorry for the quality, I had to make it bigger)?




I must inform you though that this pic is quite old... It has been taken from a train in service in 2008. It may be changed now. Actually it has changed a lot. But this may give you an idea.
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Old June 29th, 2013, 12:39 AM   #1503
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I am surprised by this train Frecacciosa 1.000 suposed to run at 360 Km / H on the italian network, very strange because the company Ansaldo Breda has just been expulsed from the netherlands.

http://www.fsitaliane.it/fsi/Il-Grup...niziano-i-test
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Old June 29th, 2013, 10:38 AM   #1504
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I am surprised by this train Frecacciosa 1.000 suposed to run at 360 Km / H on the italian network, very strange because the company Ansaldo Breda has just been expulsed from the netherlands.

http://www.fsitaliane.it/fsi/Il-Grup...niziano-i-test
The train cannot run at 360km/h on our network, since there are no line actually in which that speed is permitted.

I don't know if they will rise the maximum speed just for that train, but I'm quite sceptic. We have too short lines to have that speed... Roma-Firenze is stuck on 250 km/h (it is not really a HSL, since it has 3kV DC and mixed traffic, regional, Intercities and HST), Firenze - Bologna is too short to reach 360km/h (it is just 75km of line)...
The only one might be Bologna - Milano between Modena and Milano (in Modena the max speed is 240 due to too bending railway). But I guess that that speed cannot last long... Once in Piacenza, or Lodi, the train will have to slow down.

Maybe on the new lines, like Milano - Genova or Milano - Venezia (when they will be ready).
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Last edited by narkelion; June 29th, 2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #1505
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I am surprised by this train Frecacciosa 1.000 suposed to run at 360 Km / H on the italian network, very strange because the company Ansaldo Breda has just been expulsed from the netherlands.
The train is actually a Bombardier train. AnsaldoBreda only assembles them. When someone is watching them they do see to be able to build good products. They've been assembling trains for Stadler for example.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 12:25 AM   #1506
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Is Roma-Firenze currently nearing capacity? Would there be a benefit in building a 300-320 km/h line to reduce travel times from Rome northward? Also, I think when it comes to the Bologna-Firenze tunnel, was it designed for those speeds given how long the tunnels are? could make express trips to Milan more feasable but would the trains fill up still?
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Old June 30th, 2013, 12:35 AM   #1507
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Narkelion, thank you very much for your help, some more questions. Apart from Milan Brescia ¿Is there any HSL being built at this time in Italy?, beetween 2005 and 2009 a lot of lines where under construction, it seems that there is not much work these days, ¿What is happening with the italian companies involved in the works? ¿They fired a lot of people? Maybe they are building outside of italy a project i do not know about.

On the other hand why did they did not make a stop in Modena city, apart from this reggia Emilia Station very far from the city, ¿The HSL does not enter Modena?

Last edited by Rayancito; June 30th, 2013 at 09:19 AM.
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Old June 30th, 2013, 12:48 AM   #1508
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Is Roma-Firenze currently nearing capacity? Would there be a benefit in building a 300-320 km/h line to reduce travel times from Rome northward? Also, I think when it comes to the Bologna-Firenze tunnel, was it designed for those speeds given how long the tunnels are? could make express trips to Milan more feasable but would the trains fill up still?
The line Between Rome and Chiusi cannot be raised to 300/320km/h really easily: you have to build it again, due to too bending curves and too short distance between tracks.

The line from Chiusi to Firenze is capable of 300km/h, but to update it you have to change the power supply to 25kV AC.
There were studies about this, and it turned out that trains might earn 5/10 minutes with this upgrade, and it was hence decided not to do it (it would have costed a lot since trains would have stressed a lot more the line).

The upgrade is possible, but not so useful. Too expensive in comparison to what trains would earn.

Moreover to upgrade the line you have to remove from it all non-HS trains (there are a lot between Rome and Orte and between Arezzo and Firenze), since the new power supply doesn't allow them to run on the HS line (all our locos are 3 kV DC except for some of them like E402B), and bring them in the slow line. But this slow line is way over its capacity: between RM and Orte that line is dedicated to suburban trains and freight only (there is one every 10/15 minutes). Between Orte and Firenze the line is very winding, with max speed around 110/120 km/h: not enough for IC trains and fast-regio services.

Bad situation, yes.


Between FI and BO, instead, the slow line was a pretty good one: unlike the really difficult terrain, the old line reaches speeds of 170/180 km/h in some points. But there was a need for HS lines, so that's why we built it. It was designed for 300km/h from the start.

The only way to shorten the time from Rome to Milan is to build HS lines that go over Firenze and Bologna networks: a train has to slow down from 250km/h to 70 in Firenze, to reach 300km/h in the tunnel to Bologna after 10/20 km (losing a lot of time!) and in Bologna it has to slow down from 300 km/h to 90, to accelerate again to 300 after Bologna Underground station (before this station, the speed limit in the old station was 30km/h with a considerable loss of time).
Building a fast tunnel under Firenze, at a speed of 200/250 km/h may reduce the time of the trip from RM to MI to 10/15 minutes!


Another thing that should be considered is the train's acceleration. ETR500 is really heavy and has a really poor acceleration. ETR1000 will improve a lot this, while Italo's AVG already are better than ETR500. In the section between FI and BO the ETR500 will reach 300 km/h after 41 km... Too slow, considered that it has to slow down at km 60 (more or less) to go in the underpass of Bologna.
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Old July 1st, 2013, 10:08 PM   #1509
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Because of the terrain most of the line in and around Florence and Bologna is (or will be) in tunnel, including the curves, so building 300 km/h bypasses for these cities would mean closing the HSL from somewhere north of Bologna so somewhere south of Florence for years to allow the construction of underground junctions.

Just look at how tight is the tunnel northwest of Firenze Castello station (you can see it in OpenStreetMaps, sadly I don't know how to link directly it like it can be done with Google Maps).
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Old July 1st, 2013, 11:09 PM   #1510
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Because of the terrain most of the line in and around Florence and Bologna is (or will be) in tunnel, including the curves, so building 300 km/h bypasses for these cities would mean closing the HSL from somewhere north of Bologna so somewhere south of Florence for years to allow the construction of underground junctions.

Just look at how tight is the tunnel northwest of Firenze Castello station (you can see it in OpenStreetMaps, sadly I don't know how to link directly it like it can be done with Google Maps).
Oh, I saw it. Why did they build such a tight bend?

And... Why do you have to close the HSL to build underpasses? Can't you build all the line and then close it for some months just for the junctions and for the tests?
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Old July 1st, 2013, 11:49 PM   #1511
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
Oh, I saw it. Why did they build such a tight bend?
Probably because they thought that as most trains would have stopped in Florence and Bologna there was no need to plan for a future high speed bypass.

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And... Why do you have to close the HSL to build underpasses? Can't you build all the line and then close it for some months just for the junctions and for the tests?
Because the Bologna-Florence HSL is nearly all in tunnel, so it is impossible to build new junctions on that lines without closing it for years (a junction must be inside the tunnel, and it is impossible or extremely costly and difficult modifying a tunnel keeping traffic running). Sure, on the motorway A1 Florence-Rome some tunnels have been enlarged from 2 to 3 lanes, but building an underground grade separated junction without closing the railway is an impossible mission, or nearly impossible.

Look here: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Bologn...talia&t=k&z=17

On the left is the link to the surface station of Bologna, on the right the link to the underground station. Both branches merge inside the mountain, so it is an Y-shaped tunnel with only one entrance at the other end.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 12:03 AM   #1512
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Probably because they thought that as most trains would have stopped in Florence and Bologna there was no need to plan for a future high speed bypass.



Because the Bologna-Florence HSL is nearly all in tunnel, so it is impossible to build new junctions on that lines without closing it for years (a junction must be inside the tunnel, and it is impossible or extremely costly and difficult modifying a tunnel keeping traffic running). Sure, on the motorway A1 Florence-Rome some tunnels have been enlarged from 2 to 3 lanes, but building an underground grade separated junction without closing the railway is an impossible mission, or nearly impossible.

Look here: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Bologn...talia&t=k&z=17

On the left is the link to the surface station of Bologna, on the right the link to the underground station. Both branches merge inside the mountain, so it is an Y-shaped tunnel with only one entrance at the other end.
Thanks. Did they close the line to build that junction? From what I know, they didn't...

Ok, here's the daily bullshit: Can't they build the Firenze overpass from here: http://goo.gl/maps/eugJ2 ? It's the first point outside of the tunnel. Junctions are easier here, and can merge the FI-RM DD here: http://goo.gl/maps/3Sozy

Is that possible? It would cut Firenze and maybe also a buch on kilometers!
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 12:31 AM   #1513
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Thanks. Did they close the line to build that junction? From what I know, they didn't...
No they didn't, because this junction was built together with the rest of the line. But there aren't other similar underground junctions, and as I said building them now is nearly impossible.

It is just that until December 2012 the branch towards Bologna underground station was dead-end, with tracks ending just after the Y-shaped tunnel.

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Ok, here's the daily bullshit: Can't they build the Firenze overpass from here: http://goo.gl/maps/eugJ2 ? It's the first point outside of the tunnel. Junctions are easier here, and can merge the FI-RM DD here: http://goo.gl/maps/3Sozy
What? This is one tunnel of the single track non electrified Florence-Borgo San Lorenzo line...
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 08:57 AM   #1514
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Yes, you're right, this one is the place I had in mind: http://goo.gl/maps/Zcy74
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 11:02 AM   #1515
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Sure it would be possible to build a bypass from there, but it would need 30 km of tunnels, and just for a small part of the trains because the others would still need to stop in Bologna and Florence. IMHO, two bypass should have been planned reserving space to build them (but not building it from the start), but it would be too difficult and costly to build them now.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:29 PM   #1516
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Sure it would be possible to build a bypass from there, but it would need 30 km of tunnels, and just for a small part of the trains because the others would still need to stop in Bologna and Florence. IMHO, two bypass should have been planned reserving space to build them (but not building it from the start), but it would be too difficult and costly to build them now.
So we are doomed to have slow bypass forever?

Too bad.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:40 PM   #1517
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So we are doomed to have slow bypass forever?

Too bad.
I do not see the problem, as most traffic in Italy will always require to stop at Bologna and Firenze. The (very) thoretical advantage of bypassing these two cities is greatly diminuished by the loss of network effect, particularly for Bologna

The two underground tunnel will make the entire crossing of the two cities (it already does for Bologna, at least in part) smoother, if not that much faster. That is good enough for Italy, I think
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:41 PM   #1518
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Theoretically a city that would be "easier" to bypass is Rome. An AV line could be built totally bypassing the city. I do not think thought that the cost justifies bypassing the italian capital thought
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:48 PM   #1519
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I do not see the problem, as most traffic in Italy will always require to stop at Bologna and Firenze. The (very) thoretical advantage of bypassing these two cities is greatly diminuished by the loss of network effect, particularly for Bologna

The two underground tunnel will make the entire crossing of the two cities (it already does for Bologna, at least in part) smoother, if not that much faster. That is good enough for Italy, I think
Well, there are 14 trains (FrecciaRossa) non-stop, and I don't know how may Italo. Doing MI-RM in less than 2h/2h15 would mean definately the victory against planes.

But I agree with you, mine was just a theorical question.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:23 AM   #1520
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Well, there are 14 trains (FrecciaRossa) non-stop, and I don't know how may Italo. Doing MI-RM in less than 2h/2h15 would mean definately the victory against planes.

But I agree with you, mine was just a theorical question.
at what price this victory? for 14 trains a day we have to spend 10 billion, or something like that?

We can build new HSR with the same money, far more useful.
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