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Old July 8th, 2013, 09:46 AM   #1541
joseph1951
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The strait bridge in "incognito". They've done some preparatory works, there is some lack of money to push ahead. All planning-and-drawing has been complete.

They need some € 4 billion on public budget moneys + around 3 from private partners to build the bridge and everything related to it. Some works like road junctions in Messina have been completed already.

I expect the bridge to see heavy construction only after 2018, sadly. But the bridge is essential to the progress and development of Sicilia and Southernmost Italy shouldn't get the shaft with ferries (!!!) over a connection that is less than 4km wide.
No Rail/Road Bridge over the strait of Messina wil be built at least fot the next 30 years. In about 60 year of planning they did not managed to produce for the government serious documentation relating to the technical and financial feasibility of the said project.

Baffoons!!!!!!!

The project was initially awarded for 3.9 billion euros to a Consortium led by Impregilo a Company very close to Mr Berlusconi. After 12 months the cost of construction of the bridge had already soared to 8, 5 billion euros.
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Old July 8th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #1542
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
HS trains need to be... High Speed. Modena is just 15 minutes from Bologna with the regio trains, there is no need for a HS train to stop there.
Bologna- Modena is about 37 km long.

In the old line line time travel is:
Regionale/Regionale veloce 26-31 minutes

Frecciabianca (which TI considers it to be a high speed train and it is expensive) 18 ~21 minutes)

Intercities (the few left) and which are subsidised by the state: journey times 18-19 minutes.


Now 21 minuts of tha Frecciabianca for a journey of 37 kms, for me is not a high speed journey.
considering also the fact that when the old line line very busy the trains were faster and the ETR450 was covering the Journey from Bologna to Reegigo Emilia in just above 20 minutes. The section Modena - Reggio Emilia was covered at an average sped of 188 km/h.

In 1938, in this now "old line" the journey from Bologna to Milan was made in 68 minutes . Now it takes 65 minutes for the same journey but on the new super- high- speed line!
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Old July 8th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #1543
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The curse of the modern railways (worldwide) is defensive driving and defensively padded timetables. (Actually, they're a good thing, but don't help point to point fast timings). That train in the 30s was probably still doing 150km/h as it entered the platforms at Milan. (I exaggerate).
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Old July 8th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #1544
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The railways were much emptier as well, and the speed limits over switches were higher, never mind accidents or risks.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #1545
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Hi, one question about Bologna-Florencia high speed railway:

- I read in Wikipedia that line is mostly underground, 78.5 km long and includes 73.8 km of tunnels, 3.6 km on embankment or in cutting and 1.1 km on viaduct. Wow, this is one of the most spectacular man made engineering. Congratulations first of all.

Why is most of the line underground?

- I read also that the total cost of the line was 5.2 billion euros (67m euros per km) Is this very high cost? How much it cost a normal HSR per km?

I'm very impressed of this line when I read that more than 95% of it's recorride is underground.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 02:46 AM   #1546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post

Why is most of the line underground?
Because it crosses the mountain range that splits the Italian peninsula in two, the Apennines.

Take a look here:

http://goo.gl/maps/9Ukim


This is the 3rd Bologna-Firenze trunk line. The first one was built on the 1860s century as a typically mountain railway. The second one was opened in the 1930s and already had a couple of long tunnels, including the Apennino tunnel with around 17km length. Then there is the high-speed railway.

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Last edited by Suburbanist; July 9th, 2013 at 03:47 AM.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 11:23 PM   #1547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
Why is most of the line underground?

- I read also that the total cost of the line was 5.2 billion euros (67m euros per km) Is this very high cost? How much it cost a normal HSR per km?

I'm very impressed of this line when I read that more than 95% of it's recorride is underground.
The Bologna-Firenze HSL is mostly underground because they wanted it to be straight and with no high slopes (maximum slope is 15 per mil or 1.5%). Had they built with higher slopes it would have had less km in tunnel (but not much less).

The second Bologna-Firenze has two long tunnels, 18.5 and 7.2 km.

5.2 billion euro is not that much for this kind of line.
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Old July 9th, 2013, 11:31 PM   #1548
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Since Bologna is much more important as the biggest transportation hub in Italy than on an O/D itself, I keep wondering whether they should have used the whole AV/AC project to build a completely new station on a better high-speed alingment alignment with higher train and passenger output.
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Old July 10th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #1549
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Because Bologna station is already in a good position...

However they might have built a faster line for no-stop trains, and an underground station with more tracks and accessible also to/from the Adriatic line.

Also the new Firenze Belfiore station will have only 4 tracks, but it will be located far away from any of the existing stations.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 06:27 PM   #1550
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the Genoa - Sanremo section has been, is being replaced by tunnels
what is the max speed they designed this new section for?
and what's going on with the Genoa-Pisa section?
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Old July 21st, 2013, 08:11 PM   #1551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
the Genoa - Sanremo section has been, is being replaced by tunnels
Finale Ligure-Bordighera excluded these stations to be precise (Bordighera is the third last station before the border).

Genoa-Savona-Finale Ligure has been doubled in tunnels up until somewhere around 1977.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
what is the max speed they designed this new section for?
As far I know, around 180 km/h (Finale Ligure-Ospedaletti). However the time reduction given by the higher speed may be lost due to the fact that there are less stations (11 rather than 20 between Finale Ligure and Bordighera included) and that the new stations are usually more distant from the city centers.

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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
and what's going on with the Genoa-Pisa section?
The section Sestri Levante-La Spezia has been doubled in tunnels up until around 1940, like the Genoa-Savona-Finale Ligure section speed are lower than in the more recent section (maybe around 100-130 km/h?), but most stations there were rebuilt exactly where they were or not too distant from the old stations.

Tunnel statistics:
Sestri Levante-La Spezia, 39 km of line and 30 km of tunnels.
Genoa-Savona-Finale Ligure, ~60 km of line and ~28 km of tunnels.
I don't have exact figures for the remaining section but Genova-Ventimiglia when completed should have around 85 km of tunnels in 147 km, or 58% of the line (longest tunnels around 13, 10, 7 and 6 km long).

There are no plans for a new line Genoa-Pisa.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 03:58 AM   #1552
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I've been reading some stuff about Italy's High Speed Rail System, and I have some questions:

- How exactly was ItaloTreno from NTV allowed to enter the competition? I mean, I suppose this private company runs through the tracks of Trenitalia, the goverment's rail subsidary, right? Do they pay an special rent? Does the Italian Government published a tender for lets say 30 years of concession? Can other private train companies put their own HST on the same tracks?

- About the Padova-Milano line, is there an estimate date where the line will be opened?

- About the Padova-Bologna and Verona-Bologna lines, since these only run at 250 km/h, I guess these are not new lines but only upgraded, right?

Thank you very much!
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 04:36 AM   #1553
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Trenitalia doesn't own the tracks. RFI, another state company, does.

RFI charges train operating companies (the biggest of which is Trenitalia) fees for use of infrastructure. Other companies can operate non-subsidized services and high-speed services. OBB and DB operate trains in Italy as well. So does SNCF.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 05:01 AM   #1554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy_Batty View Post
I've been reading some stuff about Italy's High Speed Rail System, and I have some questions:

- How exactly was ItaloTreno from NTV allowed to enter the competition? I mean, I suppose this private company runs through the tracks of Trenitalia, the goverment's rail subsidary, right? Do they pay an special rent? Does the Italian Government published a tender for lets say 30 years of concession? Can other private train companies put their own HST on the same tracks?

- About the Padova-Milano line, is there an estimate date where the line will be opened?

- About the Padova-Bologna and Verona-Bologna lines, since these only run at 250 km/h, I guess these are not new lines but only upgraded, right?

Thank you very much!
The Padova -Bologna line has some short stretches which allow 180 km/h runnings.

Journey time with the fastest trains: 57 minutes . (Line length 123 km)

The Bologna -Verona line has ben recently doubled and upgraded with a desgin top speed of 200km/h.
However, due to the new train control system failure, on some sections there are speed restrictions to 150 km/h or less.

Journey time with the fastest trains: 50 minutes . (Line length 114 km)
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 05:37 AM   #1555
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Ok, soy thery are not really high-speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Trenitalia doesn't own the tracks. RFI, another state company, does.

RFI charges train operating companies (the biggest of which is Trenitalia) fees for use of infrastructure. Other companies can operate non-subsidized services and high-speed services. OBB and DB operate trains in Italy as well. So does SNCF.
Mmm, that's interesting. I thought Italy's model was something similar to the one implemented in Germany with the Deutsche Netze that belongs to the Deutsche Bahn.

So I guess Trenitalia is totally independent from Rete Ferreoviaria Italiana and even they have to pay a fee for the use of tracks? About the subsidy, what do you exaclty mean? Is Trenitaly a subsidized service for the users? Doesn't that make the competition between private and public companies unfair?

Thanks!
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 06:55 AM   #1556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy_Batty View Post
Ok, soy thery are not really high-speed.


Mmm, that's interesting. I thought Italy's model was something similar to the one implemented in Germany with the Deutsche Netze that belongs to the Deutsche Bahn.
1-
So I guess Trenitalia is totally independent from Rete Ferreoviaria Italiana and even they have to pay a fee for the use of tracks?

2-
About the subsidy, what do you exaclty mean?
3-
Is Trenitaly a subsidized service for the users?
4-
Doesn't that make the competition between private and public companies unfair?

Thanks!
1-
No, it is not. Trenitala is a private company totally owned by a single investor : the Italian Ministry for transport and infrastructure.
The Trenitalia Chairman, Mr Mauro Moretti, is also the Chairman of the entire FS Group. (Trenitalia HS Division Trenitalia Cargo, Trenitalia Regional Division, RFI, Gradndi Stazioni SpA, etc)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovi...Stato_Italiane
2-
Most of Trenitalia services are subsidised by the State and by the Regions. In order to obtain state susbsidies for the regional services the Regions were compelled to sign the service agreements with Trenitalia and secondary regional partners chosen by Trenitalia. These agreements were signed by the Regions , trenitalia and trenitalia secondary partners They will be in force for 6 years and they will renewable for another six years. They give Trenitalia pre-emptive rights.

3-
Partly , allegedly for the regional and national non-HS trains. Assets (buildings, lands, rolling stocks, etc) have been conferred to TI at zero and/or nominal value. In turn , in the last few years, Trenitalia has sold about 28,000 units of rolling stock which, previously, had been assingned to Trenitalia as totally depreciated assets.Therefore they had no value, at least for the point of view of the accounts.

TI Chairman, Mr Moretti calls this type of operations as "self financing" some experts call it "assett stripping".

4-
Yes.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 02:05 PM   #1557
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Originally Posted by Roy_Batty View Post
Mmm, that's interesting. I thought Italy's model was something similar to the one implemented in Germany with the Deutsche Netze that belongs to the Deutsche Bahn.
The German model is different as well. "Deutsche Bahn" is the holding, which is divided in DB Netz, DB Bahn and DB schenker. DB Bahn, and DB Schenker run trains, and pay access fees to DB Netz.

What the EU required was simply that all railway companies got access on equal terms. So the countries had to set up a system where the incumbent was charged for usage of the infrastructure in a more or less transparent way, and other companies could request access on the same terms. This does not require an entire separation of infrastructure and exploitation, but does require transparency in the way the different divisions within a state owned railway charge each other for services.

Some countries went for complete separation (The UK, the Netherlands), others went for separate divisions within state holdings.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 03:03 PM   #1558
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The German model is different as well. "Deutsche Bahn" is the holding, which is divided in DB Netz, DB Bahn and DB schenker. DB Bahn, and DB Schenker run trains, and pay access fees to DB Netz.
It's the same in Italy.

' The structure of the Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane Group originates from the reorganisation process begun in 2000. The current organisation is that of an industrial Group with a Parent company, Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane SpA, which heads the Operating Companies in the various sectors of the chain and other companies servicing and supporting Group operations. The companies have their own specific corporate character and benefit from managerial independence in achieving business objectives.,

http://www.fsitaliane.it/fsi-en/GROU...roup-Companies

Trenitalia, that runs the passengers trains, pays to RFi.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 11:08 PM   #1559
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thx for the answers

is the Pontebbana Udine-Tarvisio capable of 160 kph or more?
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 04:20 AM   #1560
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Thank your for your replies, you have helped me a lot understanding these topics. Still, two things I didn't quite get:

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951
Partly , allegedly for the regional and national non-HS trains. Assets (buildings, lands, rolling stocks, etc) have been conferred to TI at zero and/or nominal value. In turn , in the last few years, Trenitalia has sold about 28,000 units of rolling stock which, previously, had been assingned to Trenitalia as totally depreciated assets.Therefore they had no value, at least for the point of view of the accounts.
Maybe I don't have much inside in these type of matters, as I didn't really understand this. I mean, one thing is "asset stripping" where a certain group buys a certain underachieving company for a low price... and then sell all the assets, resulting in a certain amount of "evil" profit. Understood that, but what does that have to do with the subsidy offered to the passangers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_
What the EU required was simply that all railway companies got access on equal terms. So the countries had to set up a system where the incumbent was charged for usage of the infrastructure in a more or less transparent way, and other companies could request access on the same terms. This does not require an entire separation of infrastructure and exploitation, but does require transparency in the way the different divisions within a state owned railway charge each other for services.
Ahh, so basically all these state owned companies paying to others state owned companies is a regulation established by the European Union in order to promote transparency and the possibility for competition in the market? Can you give me some background of this regulation? Name? Date?

Thanks!!!
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