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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:06 PM   #141
Verso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Average speed is one thing, top speed is another, commercial speed one more. Top speed reached on our AV lines is about 360Km/H. Commercial speed on new AV lines is pretty much everywhere 300Km/H, which is the speed the train maintains after leaving station and before reaching next. Consider it as the 130Km/h speed limit on highways.

Average speed is not used usually to measure AV lines. Average speed is actually the time it takes to travel between 2 stations divided per the distance. This of course is lower than commercial speed because of acceleration, deceleration and the pieces of urban railways which usually are not AV (for example Milan). Average speed on Milan-Bologna is theoretically about 200 km/h (65 minutes to cover 220km)

That said...average speed on highways is not 130km/h: to go from Milan to Bologna it doesn't take one and half hour for the same reason as for the train: you have to get in and out the city. So the average time is about 2 hours and 20 minutes (with no traffic problems of course). The average "highway" speed between the 2 city center is then about 100km/h

I hope that's clear
Yeah, I know that, but if the top speed is 300 km/h, how can then the average speed be just about 140 km/h? (I remember a similar average speed looking at driving times on Italian railways)

Or average speeds on Italian HSRs are higher?
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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #142
GENIUS LOCI
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Actually nowadays the only stretches completed of the Milano-Roma-Napoli is Firenze-Roma-Napoli

Then if you bring an ETR 500 to Napoli from Milan it will reach just on Roma -Napoli maximum speed of 300 km/h and between Firenze and Roma a 250 km/h maximum speed
On the other stretches HS train run on traditional railways with all other convoys and reach a top speed of less than 200 km/h
Then now real HS is only from Firenze to Napoli
On December 12th Milano Bologna HS tracks will be opened and in Dec. 2009 even Bologna-Firenze: only in that date Milano-Napoli HSR will be fully operational
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Old December 11th, 2008, 12:27 AM   #143
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Genious Loci - the project to upgrade the Drrettissima - will that require new railway or will it just have some realignment and change of juice to 25kV AC?
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Old December 11th, 2008, 12:33 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Not only that, even on high speed lines actual speed of train varies quite a lot because of track configuration (hills etc). Especially evident is that on Paris-Lyon TGV track.
Some of the line is restricted to 270km/h at the south end near Dijon and Lyon, which used to be the max speed of the TGVs. The TGVs were upgraded but some of the track couldn't be. The French learnt from this mistake though.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 08:40 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Genious Loci - the project to upgrade the Drrettissima - will that require new railway or will it just have some realignment and change of juice to 25kV AC?
Realignment of some sharp curves and 25 kV power supply.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #146
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Meanwhile... if you want to drive an ETR 500 (old one) at 300 km/h on Roma-Firenze

http://www.o-zoners.com/eurostar/eurodriver.html


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Old December 11th, 2008, 01:52 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Yeah, I know that, but if the top speed is 300 km/h, how can then the average speed be just about 140 km/h? (I remember a similar average speed looking at driving times on Italian railways)

Or average speeds on Italian HSRs are higher?
I told you...between Milan and Bologna in a few days average speed will be more than 200 km/h

If you refer to the other 2 new AV lines open (Torino-Milano and Roma-Napoli) in reality they are not completed: the Torino Milano is only 2/3 completed. it takes only 25 minutes to go from Turin to Novara where the new line stops (so 216km/h average speed). The Roma-Napoli is almost completed, but 20 km are not. The "official" time to make the 220km is 1h and 27minutes but in reality more often than not it takes just 1h and 10-15 minutes. When the last 20 km will be finished it will be 1 hour, so more than 200 km/h average speed.

To summarize: the 2 existing line are not complited, the first new AV line in Italy will be opened in a matter of days (if we exclude the slower Firenze-Roma finished in 1992)
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Old December 11th, 2008, 01:55 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Yeah, I know that, but if the top speed is 300 km/h, how can then the average speed be just about 140 km/h? (I remember a similar average speed looking at driving times on Italian railways)

Or average speeds on Italian HSRs are higher?
On top of course average speed on the non-AV relations are of course that of a traditional railway...so if you looked at Milano-Venezia for example that average speed is probably accurate since commercial speed anyway is 180km usually on traditional railways in Italy (a few pieces at 200 many at 160-140)
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Old December 11th, 2008, 02:57 PM   #149
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BTW some renderings of the new Bologna TAV station, next to the old Bologna Central Station.















High Speed trains will stop here, passing through Bologna city centre in a brand new tunnel, reaching Milan in 55 min. and Rome in 1h. 45 min.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 03:47 PM   #150
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Actually this is the Bologna Central station project of renovation, while HS station is U/C now and will be completely underground close to Bologna Centrale (pratically Bologna Centrale will be a station with 4 more underground platforms for HS trains)







Obviously all will be integrated in the Bologna Centrale renewal you posted
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Old December 11th, 2008, 04:08 PM   #151
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Yeah, basically a new underground station will be built next to the old one. That's exactly what I meant.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 04:39 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Anyway it's a big problem. They should absolutely invest much more on advertising, set some useless speed record and things like that.
Everybody knows France for its high speed trains for instance. We are spending dozens of billions € in one of the biggest high speed lines project in the world and hardly anyone knows anything about it, not even our neighbours (and I suspect many Italians don't know anything either).
...and whatever members of the Italian public DO know they tend to scoff about. I know this first hand because I work in Paris together with a couple of Italian colleagues. They are both somewhat in awe of the "tight shop" that is French project management. The new line is typically conceived as an integrated approach: the actual tracks from end-to-end; power; signalling; so-and-so many newly built or renovated stations.... it is all part of the project and it will all be finished at the same time, at which point the new line is taken into use whole and full and without any "temporary solutions".

I will not sport with your intelligence by saying that French LGV projects are always finished on time. More often than not, a delay (one!) is announced during the project phase, whereupon a revised time schedule is drawn up and communicated to the public. Further revisions to the revised scedule have been very rare. According to Antonio and Silvia (the said colleagues) this compares favourably with the practices of FS, who announces deadlines that are broken one time after the other and, in the end, proudly declare that the new line to Naples will now be inaugurated... minus the last 25 km in Campania which will follow later; or the line to Bologna to be inaugurated end 2009... minus the station which will follow three years later. I mean... for Pete's sake, the whole connection from Turin to Salerno was - according to plans presented around 2000 - supposed to be finalised in etapes between 2005 and 2007.

In my (admittedly Protestant) view, it is hardly surprising that people don't take such practices seriously.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 05:27 PM   #153
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Test on Milano-Bologna

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxromana View Post
Piacenza. Per Trainzitalia postato da: E.655.540.

[IMG]http://i38.************/2agn30i.jpg[/IMG]

Saliceto (PC). Per Trainzitalia postato da: THE MAX

[IMG]http://i34.************/3532vbt.jpg[/IMG]
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Old December 11th, 2008, 05:53 PM   #154
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ETR 500 speed record (355 km/h) on Milano-Bologna HSR testing

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Old December 13th, 2008, 08:00 PM   #155
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Italy launches Milan-Bologna high-speed train link

MILAN, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Italy launched a high-speed train link between the northern cities of Milan and Bologna on Saturday, part of a planned expansion to reach Rome next year and woo passengers away from airlines.

The fast train will cut travel time between the two cities to 65 minutes, state railway company unit Trenitalia said. Other trains take about twice as long on average to cover the 210-km (130-mile) stretch.

"The train has become a transport solution for everyone and throws out a challenge to the airplane," Trenitalia said in a statement.

Regular high-speed service from Milan to Bologna will start on Sunday. Italy has three other fast train routes.

The high-speed service is scheduled to reach Rome next year and cut travel time between Milan, Italy's financial centre, and the capital to three-and-a-half hours non-stop.

The state railway company, Ferrovie dello Stato, aims to corner 60 percent of the market for travel by any method over the route over the next two years, Chief Executive Mauro Moretti said.

The quicker train service has started as a group of Italian businessmen embark on an ambitious project to relaunch bankrupt national airline Alitalia SpA . Alitalia's main attraction is its dominance of the Rome-Milan air route.
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Old December 13th, 2008, 09:14 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The high-speed service is scheduled to reach Rome next year and cut travel time between Milan, Italy's financial centre, and the capital to three-and-a-half hours non-stop.
Less than three hours actually.
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Old December 13th, 2008, 10:24 PM   #157
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ETR480:
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"Find all you need in your mind , if you take the time"
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Old December 13th, 2008, 11:09 PM   #158
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What is the difference of TAV from Eurostar Italia?
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Old December 14th, 2008, 01:46 AM   #159
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TAV stands for Treno ad Alta VelocitÓ (High Speed Train), but it is commonly used to refer to the railway line proper, i.e. the infrastructure.
Eurostar Italia is the commercial name of the trains that run on it, although I think that name will be discontinued soon.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 05:51 AM   #160
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Some pics of inauguration of HSR Milano Bologna in Milano Centrale by various italian forumers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TONYBILD View Post
prime immagini dalla centrale


altre pi¨ tardi














Quote:
Originally Posted by TONYBILD View Post
ecco le altre foto

i treni

















gli interni





La Moratti



Ŕ partito



il nuovo passaggio verso il metr˛



il palco autoritÓ



l'area stampa





Quote:
Originally Posted by Skymino View Post
Bel reportage Tony...

La freccia Argento o Paperotto, come lo chiam Joga... Fighissimo!

[IMG]http://i34.************/1217pc4.jpg[/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by minera52 View Post
Ma, scusate, visto che eravate tutti in stazione non potevate aspettare un po' che arrivavo anch'io?

Ero per puro caso da quelle parti (presentazione di un libro all'auditorium Gaber) quando ho sentito della musica provenire dalla stazione, la tentazione Ŕ stata troppo forte: Concerto della banda dei Carabinieri

Foto senza cappello:

[IMG]http://i37.************/257zzae.jpg[/IMG]

Foto con cappello: Inno di Mameli

[IMG]http://i35.************/1zcjo28.jpg[/IMG]


E, per finire, bellissimo spettacolo di fuochi artificiali e musica in piazza duca d'Aosta.
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