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Old September 3rd, 2014, 03:13 PM   #1701
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There are possibilities to transform a terminal station into a through station without destroying anything. Being Belgian, the example of Antwerpen Centraal comes to mind, but there are many others.
In Milan they missed an opportunity by not routing the Passante so that it passed under Centrale.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 03:13 PM   #1702
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Quote:
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There are possibilities to transform a terminal station into a through station
without destroying anything. Being Belgian, the example of Antwerpen
Centraal comes to mind, but there are many others.

The North / South line is a line in construction for the Amsterdam metro. The line will run from Amsterdam Noord (North Station, near the Buikslotermeerplein) under the center of Amsterdam to South Station.

The subway line was controversial before and during construction, particularly because of the high cost, the fear of damage to the old center of Amsterdam and the mistakes made during construction.

The continuing controversy and the collapse of several buildings on Vijzelgracht, ensured that the construction of the line in many places was temporarily shut down between September 2008 and August 2009.

It was supoosed to be finished in 2011 and cost 1.46 billion. Due to problems, the completion date is now postponed to no earlier than 2017 and the cost has risen to more than 3.1 billion euros. The delay and additional costs are mainly caused by technical setbacks in the city; the construction of underground stations on the Rokin, Vijzelgracht and Ferdinand Bolstraat cost significantly more than budgeted. Estimated time of completion is now in 2017.

Now here we are talking about a double-track metro line underneath a city significantly smaller than Milan. Imagine the price Milan had to pay for such a project, and it is not without risks.

But there is no point speculating, because we don't know what the plans of Suburbanist are. But he apparently has chosen not to say B after he said A, and has gone in hiding.

Last edited by Road_UK; September 3rd, 2014 at 03:23 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 06:53 PM   #1703
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So if what I read in Today's Railways Europe is true, Italian railways might buy the Fyra trainsets that were refused by the Netherlands and Belgium ?
They also mention Turkey...
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 07:42 PM   #1704
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Now here we are talking about a double-track metro line underneath a city significantly smaller than Milan. Imagine the price Milan had to pay for such a project, and it is not without risks.
I believe the cost is more dependent on things like soil condition and groundwater level not the size of a city. Extra 2-3 km of tunnel doesn't increase the cost that drastically. Italians already built an almost continuous tunnel for HS line from Florence to Bologna. Whether it would be worth spending billions for that is another question. Would need to consult someone who knows the city well.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 08:31 PM   #1705
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My idea is 2-fold.

1) build a second lower level at Milano Centrale, offset by couple hundred meters backwards. That isn't that difficult, considering the tracks leading to the platforms in Milano Centrale are raised above the street level as easily seen here, here and here on Google Street View. That would have some 4-5 underground platforms that would be accessed by the lower level of the already existing station facilities, with the help of several moving walkways.

2- These platforms would converge in 2 tracks descending beneath the station and then make a sharp turn right reaching the tracks on the disused Farini yard.

What could thwart the plan are the tunnels for MM-line 5, I don't have an exact map of its tracks on the vicinity.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 08:55 PM   #1706
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I believe the cost is more dependent on things like soil condition and groundwater level not the size of a city. Extra 2-3 km of tunnel doesn't increase the cost that drastically. Italians already built an almost continuous tunnel for HS line from Florence to Bologna. Whether it would be worth spending billions for that is another question. Would need to consult someone who knows the city well.
They have quite some experience building tunnels under Milan. And they recently did build the Passante. HSTs have run through there, and they could again.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:09 PM   #1707
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They have quite some experience building tunnels under Milan. And they recently did build the Passante. HSTs have run through there, and they could again.
The Passante doesn't serve Milano Centrale, and it has capacity problems now that they run more S-trains there. It is possible to reach Porta Garibaldi from another access from all tracks coming south. The problem is that the speeds on the node that gives access to Milano Centrale are very low.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:18 PM   #1708
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The Passante doesn't serve Milano Centrale, and it has capacity problems now that they run more S-trains there.
That's why I stated that it was a missed opportunity. If they'd build it 4 tracks, and had it pass under Centrale...
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:21 PM   #1709
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How many platforms does Milan Central currently have?
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:24 PM   #1710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That's why I stated that it was a missed opportunity. If they'd build it 4 tracks, and had it pass under Centrale...
True, totally agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
How many platforms does Milan Central currently have?
23 24 (Suburbanist is right), all of them are "head" and not through (what's the actual English term for the two types of platforms?)
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:24 PM   #1711
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How many platforms does Milan Central currently have?
24
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:40 PM   #1712
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True, totally agree



23 24 (Suburbanist is right), all of them are "head" and not through (what's the actual English term for the two types of platforms?)
They're terminal platforms.

Centrale is heavily under utilised btw. It could handle a lot more trains than it currently does, and Trenitalia ought to finally wake up to the fact that a modern train can be turned around in 5 minutes...
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 09:46 PM   #1713
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Major capacity issues are not platforms at Milano C.le, but outdated switch plans here
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:02 PM   #1714
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So turning it into a through-station, how and where are you going to route the tracks out of the city?
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:07 PM   #1715
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So turning it into a through-station, how and where are you going to route the tracks out of the city?
The tracks are already there! It is just connecting Farini yards with Milano C.le without even altering the alignment of the station head on surface.
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:21 PM   #1716
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I'll have a look on my pc when I get home (mobile right now). This is interesting...
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Old September 3rd, 2014, 10:50 PM   #1717
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Milan already has a through central station. It's called Garibaldi, and has been used by HSTs originating from the airport in the past.
The 2 return trips to/from Malpensa, that lasted just a couple of years, went from Malpensa to Centrale (and beyond) via Garibaldi, but without stopping in it.

Garibaldi has two problems:

1) it has 22 platforms, of which 2 are for the S-Bahn tunnel (which is not saturated at all, by the way), 12 are stub for trains entering from the west and 8 are through tracks:
https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Milano...talia&t=k&z=18
The problem is that most trains are either stopping and then transiting (Centrale-Malpensa Airport, some high speed trains), either coming from the north-east, either using the S-Bahn tunnel ("Passante"). Just a few are terminating in Garibaldi coming from the west, so there are on average just 1 to 3 departures an hour on these 12 stub tracks.

2) the point were the lines from Garibaldi to the north and to the east split is the (in)famous congested Mirabello junction: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Milano...talia&t=k&z=19

(actually, trains coming from the north and east can enter the station on the other side, but via a long detour via Villapizzone: a few regional trains and the Milan-Munich EC train used to do that, but I think no train takes this route today)

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I think it probably would be possible to extend the Malpensa railway back north to the Simplon line. That way one could indeed run Valais - Ticino trains via Malpensa, which could be very useful.
It is planend, as well as a new station near Terminal 2. The first step will be this station and the tracks linking it to Terminal 1 station (the existing one).

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They have quite some experience building tunnels under Milan. And they recently did build the Passante. HSTs have run through there, and they could again.
At least one HST did run through the Passante, one day the surface route was closed for an accident, but no HST ever used the tunnel as the planned route.

And yes, it was extremely stupid not to route the Passante via the central station.
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Old September 4th, 2014, 07:26 AM   #1718
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Matteo Renzi launch new government website about reforms passodopopasso.italia.it
Here the map of current projects "Unblock Italy".

Seeing the plan make me wonder about those highway projects. In my opinion the new highways generate only more traffic jam and give rather poor service level. A 200km/h railway insted would do the same but faster and in more effective way.

Is it just car lobby or something more?
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Old September 4th, 2014, 07:31 AM   #1719
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Seeing the plan make me wonder about those highway projects. In my opinion the new highways generate only more traffic jam and give rather poor service level. A 200km/h railway insted would do the same but faster and in more effective way.

Is it just car lobby or something more?
You can't compare both projects and assume they substitute one another because of their alignment. The network demands are different, and your affirmation that "new highways generate only more traffic jam" is unwarranted.

Building a 40km railway around Genova wouldn't do anything to alleviate the through traffic problems on the highway over there. Likewise, twinning the Frejus road tunnel wouldn't provide a very high speed link between Lyon and Torino...
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Old September 4th, 2014, 08:42 PM   #1720
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It's not just twinning it's also upgrading track and catenaries so that more trains can travel at higher speeds so the OVERALL capacity is Improved like the Brenner and Gotthard routes and their respective tunnels.
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