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Old September 4th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #1721
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You can't compare both projects and assume they substitute one another because of their alignment. The network demands are different, and your affirmation that "new highways generate only more traffic jam" is unwarranted.
There is always a possibility to give an alternative instead of making car problems bigger, espacially where the motorway is considered. World practice has shown that motorways generate more traffic jams. It is also obvious, motorways go from city to city but in such a city there is no enough space for cars. Of course it is possible to turn a city into a big road and tarmac field but then it becomes a place noone want's to live and also it is very uneffective to use cars for moving people on routes where is high or medicore demand.

I am not familiar with through traffic problems in Genova but there was not a problem when it was a part of road without the city around it. It means that if you remove the traffic related to Genova the problem fade's away. Maybe giving a park and ride facilities near Genova bypass road make the overall situation better or some new suburban rail line. If you add more lanes to Genova bypass road noone will say that the jam will move from Genova to next urban area for example Voltri. Or there still will be jams due to shadow demand.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #1722
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Seeing the plan make me wonder about those highway projects. In my opinion the new highways generate only more traffic jam and give rather poor service level. A 200km/h railway insted would do the same but faster and in more effective way.

Is it just car lobby or something more?
That's what I thought too. Maintenance, upgrading, and expansion is a thing. Building new motorways is just madness.

Italy has the highest vehicle number per 100 people (around 65) of all Europe, sadly enough.

And those €10 billion for a completely useless motorway could be used to fund public transport in A LOT of cities.

Last edited by Stravinsky; September 5th, 2014 at 01:33 PM.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 02:51 PM   #1723
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it would be OT but just to be more precise!
many of those motorways in that plan are only upgrading of existing roads...some other are new but only the completation of existing infrastructures ...works in stand-by from several years that now would be completed
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Old September 5th, 2014, 03:07 PM   #1724
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Italy has the highest vehicle number per 100 people (around 65) of all Europe, sadly enough.
And this while the prices for train travel in Italy are said to be the lowest of
western Europe... Definitely proves that price is not the only driving factor,
far from that.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 06:24 PM   #1725
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Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
That's what I thought too. Maintenance, upgrading, and expansion is a thing. Building new motorways is just madness.

Italy has the highest vehicle number per 100 people (around 65) of all Europe, sadly enough.

And those €10 billion for a completely useless motorway could be used to fund public transport in A LOT of cities.
Spending 10 billions on trams all over Italy will do NOTHING, absolutely nothing, to address the need for a new link between Lazio and Emilia Romagna.

Neither will spending 10 billion Euro on trams all over Italy would do anything to speed up connections between Bari and Napoli, for that matter.

This discussion if a completely false equivalency: just because they are planning to spend x Euro on program y, doesn't follow that x Euro are also avialable for programs w, v and z.
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Old September 5th, 2014, 08:27 PM   #1726
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how are you going to pay all these proyects ??
the italian debt is already very hight
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Old September 6th, 2014, 01:59 AM   #1727
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So they'd better save those funds, or allocate them to some pressing needs. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of them. On the other hand a quick Google search shows the huge support for this €10 billion new motorway.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 02:03 AM   #1728
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"new highways generate only more traffic jam" is unwarranted.
No, but an increase in supply could very likely result in an demand increase. Especially in a country with few or no limits to car proliferation.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 02:09 AM   #1729
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Italy is a free country, people are free to buy cars with money they earn, after taxes.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 02:11 AM   #1730
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Italy is a free country, people are free to buy cars with money they earn, after taxes.
They don't though. They buy cars with money they haven't got.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 02:27 AM   #1731
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Explain your claim? bc last time I looked Italy was one of the country that buys things using less credit

Northern europeans buy stuff with money they don't have, italians buy cars with the money they have.

Which today is less, that is way they sell less cars

Italians always lived and will always live within their means: we are a people of savers, investors. That is why even after all the orrors we tend to have big patrimonies on our shoulders
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Old September 6th, 2014, 02:31 AM   #1732
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Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
That's what I thought too. Maintenance, upgrading, and expansion is a thing. Building new motorways is just madness.

Italy has the highest vehicle number per 100 people (around 65) of all Europe, sadly enough.

And those €10 billion for a completely useless motorway could be used to fund public transport in A LOT of cities.
France has today a pretty extensive system of highways and motorways (did not use to be so 30 years ago)

Italy still has some important holes here and there: the lack of motorways for the Genoa-Rome and Rome-Venice connections is pretty stricking. Most cities rely on a small ring or half-ring, while Paris (to say one city) has something like 3 rings.

And no, Paris is not so much bigger than Milan - for example. Milan has 7 million people living in the AM, Paris 12

Some of the links under study are motorways that would have been built for sure, if we did not stop building them in the 70'

That does not mean that we should not invest in public transportation in cities. But I would question which country has invested more in - say metros - than Italy in the past 10-15 years other than Spain.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 02:34 AM   #1733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VITORIA MAN View Post
how are you going to pay all these proyects ??
the italian debt is already very hight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
So they'd better save those funds, or allocate them to some pressing needs. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of them. On the other hand a quick Google search shows the huge support for this €10 billion new motorway.
Most of the cost will be paid by project financing.

Most of the cost of BRE-BE-MI and PEDEMONTANA, the largest recent motorway projects in Italy - are in PF. So is pedemontana veneta and the Asti-Cuneo.

Motorways in the north almost pay themselves. There is no need to invest large public funds, excepts in forms of tax breaks (taxes that the government would not get anyway, if the motorway was not built)
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Old September 6th, 2014, 03:08 AM   #1734
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Italy is a free country, people are free to buy cars with money they earn, after taxes.
And nature is free to revenge.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 10:35 AM   #1735
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Spending 10 billions on trams all over Italy will do NOTHING, absolutely nothing, to address the need for a new link between Lazio and Emilia Romagna.
That is not what's being claimed.

What is being claimed is that spending money on PT would benefit more people than spending money on roads.

Resources are limited. When the government spends the peoples' money it should do so in a way that maximises the benefit to the people.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 11:05 AM   #1736
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how are you going to pay all these proyects ??
the italian debt is already very hight
Spain is the country in Europe with more kilometers of high-speed construction. Some are projects of doubtful profitability seeing the cost involved and the country is experiencing a very difficult crisis. In the opinion of many experts are wrong policy decisions
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Old September 6th, 2014, 11:11 AM   #1737
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Spain is the country in Europe with more kilometers of high-speed construction. Some are projects of doubtful profitability seeing the cost involved and the country is experiencing a very difficult crisis. In the opinion of many experts are wrong policy decisions
Those project were started in a much more optimistic times… In any case the infrastructure built will last for a very long time. Those who are babies now will take for granted that of course you can get from Madrid to Santiago in 3 hours. Was it ever different? Kind of like teenagers now not fully understanding how it was before everyone had a phone on them at all times.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 11:22 AM   #1738
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Those project were started in a much more optimistic times… In any case the infrastructure built will last for a very long time. Those who are babies now will take for granted that of course you can get from Madrid to Santiago in 3 hours. Was it ever different? Kind of like teenagers now not fully understanding how it was before everyone had a phone on them at all times.
I think you do not know the reality of my country, countries such as France or Japan do not pose build high-speed lines with so little foresight passengers. Santiago has 95,000 inhabitants and is a line with a high cost, with many tunnels and viaducts.
the country is suffering severe cuts in health and education and many talented young people are emigrating abroad
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Old September 6th, 2014, 11:55 AM   #1739
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I think you do not know the reality of my country, countries such as France or Japan do not pose build high-speed lines with so little foresight passengers. Santiago has 95,000 inhabitants and is a line with a high cost, with many tunnels and viaducts.
the country is suffering severe cuts in health and education and many talented young people are emigrating abroad
You assume incorrectly. I'm quite well informed about what is going on around Europe. Have some Spanish co-workers as well. Lots of recently arrived Italians in my city as well. Movement of people (particularly young and ambitious) from poorer places to richer ones is inevitable. I'm sure your country will recover from the current crisis and then there will be less emigrants.

I was in Santiago few months ago, a very nice town and from outside doesn't look to be particularly poor either. Was a multibillion euro new line to Galicia a financial mistake? Probably, but it will still be useful when finally finished. The point I was trying to make is that the line will last much longer than the memory of current economical crisis.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 12:28 PM   #1740
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I was in Santiago few months ago, a very nice town and from outside doesn't look to be particularly poor either. Was a multibillion euro new line to Galicia a financial mistake? Probably, but it will still be useful when finally finished. The point I was trying to make is that the line will last much longer than the memory of current economical crisis.
I was in the area as well a year ago. What I remember is that the railways still lack a lot in integration. In Vilagarcia de Arouse I couldn't buy a ticket for Barcelona for example, because there was no direct train...

The infrastructure that is being built there is amazing, but it is not really utilised well.
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