daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 6th, 2014, 12:44 PM   #1741
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I was in the area as well a year ago. What I remember is that the railways still lack a lot in integration. In Vilagarcia de Arouse I couldn't buy a ticket for Barcelona for example, because there was no direct train...

The infrastructure that is being built there is amazing, but it is not really utilised well.
I took a train from Santiago to Pontevedra (see my report in the Spain railway thread). Even the old route is quite nice albeit infrequently used. The new line to be opened next year (Santiago-Vigo) will be a great improvement, but I agree that very efficient utilisation is still not there.

Vilagarcia de Arousa to Barcelona is a very long distance, I don't think you can cover that in one day... I'm going to Barcelona and Zaragoza in few weeks and among other things it will be an opportunity to observe how well a public transport works there and in the immediate area as currently we are not planning to rent a car.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 6th, 2014, 12:47 PM   #1742
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Vilagarcia de Arousa to Barcelona is a very long distance, I don't think you can cover that in one day... I
I actually did Vilagarcia de Arouse - Bern in about 30 hours. But this did indeed involve the night train from A Coruna to Barcelona.
These night trains are amongst the nicest trains in Europe, and they would get a lot more customers if they were advertised as a means to get to anywhere, not just the places they happen to stop at...

But we're getting of topic. Again. Maybe I should talk about how we got from Palermo to Bern in exactly 24 hours, with every train leaving and arriving on time, except for the Swiss one :-)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #1743
VITORIA MAN
on skycrapercity
 
VITORIA MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: vitoria
Posts: 8,397
Likes (Received): 14404

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I took a train from Santiago to Pontevedra (see my report in the Spain railway thread). Even the old route is quite nice albeit infrequently used. The new line to be opened next year (Santiago-Vigo) will be a great improvement, but I agree that very efficient utilisation is still not there.

Vilagarcia de Arousa to Barcelona is a very long distance, I don't think you can cover that in one day... I'm going to Barcelona and Zaragoza in few weeks and among other things it will be an opportunity to observe how well a public transport works there and in the immediate area as currently we are not planning to rent a car.
in which page is your report ?
VITORIA MAN no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 01:16 PM   #1744
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by VITORIA MAN View Post
in which page is your report ?
131 & 132
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 01:23 PM   #1745
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Most of the cost will be paid by project financing.

Most of the cost of BRE-BE-MI
You're probably aware of the failure of it to attract drivers, so far.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 01:23 PM   #1746
VITORIA MAN
on skycrapercity
 
VITORIA MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: vitoria
Posts: 8,397
Likes (Received): 14404

danke sunfuns
VITORIA MAN no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 01:30 PM   #1747
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Italy is a free country, people are free to buy cars with money they earn, after taxes.
Yes, they are. But the role of the country in this respect is to provide alternatives to them.

We're in 2014, we have a century of experience in transport planning with cars. Projects should fit within a clear objective. That's the purpose of plans.

The Orte–Mestre motorway would supposedly pass through a few sparsely populated areas of Italy. I also think it's pretty much representative of the whole situation when you Google it and get only complaints about it.

The comparison with France is flawed. Italy is less than half in size. We can use the UK as a more fitting comparison.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 03:16 PM   #1748
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That is not what's being claimed.

What is being claimed is that spending money on PT would benefit more people than spending money on roads.

Resources are limited. When the government spends the peoples' money it should do so in a way that maximises the benefit to the people.
But you can't only analyze immediate number of people benefited.

If you go down that route, the only things that would get investment are local transportation. No country will ever have more passenger counts, on a daily basis, using long-distance transportation (road, rail, air, doesn't matter) than commuters going from home to work. The number of commuters will always dwarf long-distance travelers on any day.

This doesn't mean each city or metro area should become and island, and doesn't mean fast links not meant for regular traditional commute are useless because far fewer people use them. We don't live in fiefdom times any longer. Only some odd radical anarco-communists think itt would be a good thing not to have fast links because it would force people to live, work, eat and form ties only on a local basis if you can't easily travel elsewhere...

All investments on high-speed rail in Italy have been criticized by people wanting the money to be "better spent on local mobility". I've even found references to that in the 1970s when the new Roma-Firenze railway was being built. And I've personally follow the diatribes about the "uselessness and waste of money" of bringing very high speed lines to Napoli (arguing there were already two rail lines leading there) or the high-speed link Bologna-Firenze with its massive 78km of tunnels. The excuse is usually that they should have used the money to expand commuter systems around major cities or spend on subways.

And now, post-2008 crisis, there is this populist line of high-speed rail being "something for the rich", which is absolutely false and high-speed travel in Italy is the cheapest in Europe, discounted fares are abundant and easily available up to 3-4 days before travel, often up to the day before, and even the regular full prices are cheaper on a km-basis than comparable city pairs in Germany or France.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; September 6th, 2014 at 03:22 PM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 03:42 PM   #1749
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
You're probably aware of the failure of it to attract drivers, so far.
Wait to early to say. But it matters not, as it was built largely with private funds
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #1750
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Yes, they are. But the role of the country in this respect is to provide alternatives to them. We're in 2014, we have a century of experience in transport planning with cars. Projects should fit within a clear objective. That's the purpose of plans. The Orte–Mestre motorway would supposedly pass through a few sparsely populated areas of Italy. I also think it's pretty much representative of the whole situation when you Google it and get only complaints about it. The comparison with France is flawed. Italy is less than half in size. We can use the UK as a more fitting comparison.
Orte-Mestre goes through 3 regions with 9 million people.

It connects Italy's capital with the third metropolitan area of the country, and with north and East Europe.

Nimbys are always there for any project, no doubt.

Anyway as I said the 10 billion are largely PF. I fail to see the problem.
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 03:52 PM   #1751
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

High speed lines are are relatively new thing. There are a few of them under construction and some in planning process.

Autostrade, on the other hand, have been built since the 1920s. Besides maintenance and routine upgrades and renovations (Variante di Valico, A3, some bypasses and new lanes), building new motorways from scratch has few opportunities since all of the densely populated areas are currently served.

I said public transport could have been a better investment. All the same for trains, as the system is quite in need of upgrades.

Italy has the highest level of car ownership in Europe. If we want to reduce that number, we have to invest in public transport and high-speed rail.

The state of urban public transport systems is generally abysmal. While inter-city high-speed lines need to be funded if we want to avoid the construction of new motorways.

Last edited by Stravinsky; September 6th, 2014 at 04:05 PM.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #1752
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Wait to early to say. But it matters not, as it was built largely with private funds
I don't recall needed transport links that went unused when opened. I remember many useless ones, though.

Land value matters. If a road is not used, it's a waste of space.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 04:05 PM   #1753
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
I don't recall needed transport links that went unused when opened. I remember many useless ones, though. Land value matters. If a road is not used, it's a waste of space.
It was opened in August, connection on both ends are still u-c and the main advantages still not wxploited.

Let's talk in 2 years.
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 04:09 PM   #1754
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
High speed lines are are relatively new thing. There are a few of them under construction and some in planning process. Autostrade, on the other hand, have been built since the 1920s. Besides maintenance and routine upgrades and renovations (Variante di Valico, A3, some bypasses and new lanes), building new motorways from scratch has few opportunities since all of the densely populated areas are currently served. I said public transport could have been a better investment. All the same for trains, as the system is quite in need of upgrades. Italy has the highest level of car ownership in Europe. If we want to reduce that number, we have to invest in public transport and high-speed rail. The state of urban public transport systems is generally abysmal. While inter-city high-speed lines need to be funded if we want to avoid the construction of new motorways.
The country has invested in creating a 1000 km long high speed line and many upgrades on other lines and is currently involved in excavating 3 of the world longest railway tunnels plus a short stretch of av line from Milan to Brescia.

In the renzi plan there are plenty of railways.

I disagree about railways in Italy being such a laggard. They are on many fronts an excellent service, especially in the center-north of the country were distances and geography permit.

What should Italy do more than build 2 alpine tunnels, terzo valico and put in plan Milan-Venezia, Rome-Bari and the Sicilian railways?
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 04:19 PM   #1755
Stravinsky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,188
Likes (Received): 1147

Invest in the South? Invest in regional, local, and suburban rail services? Heavily invest in urban mass transit systems? Most of those who own a car live in cities, and those who own a car are much more prone to travel by car, than those without one.

This is where we stand now. This is why our roads are congested. The modal share of rail in Italy is significantly lower than in France, for example. And our country is much smaller. We're almost at the same level of (or below) the UK, and they have a 30% smaller network.

I guess dated long-term plannign has something to do with it. Italy is stuck in its 1960s dolce vita mentality, ffs.

Last edited by Stravinsky; September 6th, 2014 at 04:28 PM.
Stravinsky no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #1756
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Improving urban and suburban rail based transport would be a good idea. Metro of Rome is way too small for the size of the city. Extra money to quickly finish Naples metro (the whole circle) would be well spent. Suburban trains in Naples area are also in bad condition. I'm sure there is more stuff like that elsewhere.

I'm not against HS rail or new roads, but the are other useful infrastructure projects which also deserve consideration.
__________________

Dooie_Amsterdammert liked this post
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2014, 11:09 PM   #1757
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Invest in the South?
The combined rail-road Strait Messina Bridge should have been part of the plan indeed!!!
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2014, 03:50 AM   #1758
franciscoc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 660
Likes (Received): 1496

there is any possibility of tunneling in the Strait of messina?
I know it's an earthquake zone but have made Istanbul Bosporus tunnel
franciscoc está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2014, 05:36 AM   #1759
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21247

Quote:
Originally Posted by franciscoc View Post
there is any possibility of tunneling in the Strait of messina?
I know it's an earthquake zone but have made Istanbul Bosporus tunnel
Difficult, because the strait has a depth of up to 250m over just 4km width and has an extremely difficult geology. A bridge is cheaper and safer.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2014, 01:12 AM   #1760
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,150
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Invest in the South? Invest in regional, local, and suburban rail services? Heavily invest in urban mass transit systems? Most of those who own a car live in cities, and those who own a car are much more prone to travel by car, than those without one.

This is where we stand now. This is why our roads are congested. The modal share of rail in Italy is significantly lower than in France, for example. And our country is much smaller. We're almost at the same level of (or below) the UK, and they have a 30% smaller network.

I guess dated long-term plannign has something to do with it. Italy is stuck in its 1960s dolce vita mentality, ffs.
Can you point a country in Europe with more KM of metro lines in costruction than Italy? maybe only Spain, maybe.

Rail has more or less the market it can capture in Italy, a country which unlike France happens to be long and with plenty of natural barriers. For example in most of the south investing in rail transport is almost useless, due to distances, orography and demography.

Nevertheles, north Italy actually fares quite well in comparison. Lombardy and Milan have a very extensive network of local, regional and suburban rail. On par with any major metropolis in Europe. On a lesser extent, also Rome, Naples, Turin, Genoa, the Veneto region and Emilia Romagna.

Car ownership in the major italian cities is declining, from admittedly high levels.

The national government has invested in the past 20-30 years heavily in public transport: metros, new hurban rails, trams. Less than it could? maybe. Less than highways? I doubt it. We have opened a few km of highways in the last 20 years, France has opened much, much, much more.

I guess France is stuck in "dolce vita" mentality?
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocitā

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium