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Old September 8th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #1761
Stravinsky
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Can you point a country in Europe with more KM of metro lines in costruction than Italy? maybe only Spain, maybe.
Yeah, and Italy has been detaining this record for a few decades by now, since construction work is never ending.

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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post

Rail has more or less the market it can capture in Italy, a country which unlike France happens to be long and with plenty of natural barriers. For example in most of the south investing in rail transport is almost useless, due to distances, orography and demography.
Look at countries like Austria or Switzerland. Orography raises the cost of construction, yet they're able to get much more return on their investment, as their modal share is far higher. This is the result of succesful policies to cause a shift in mode.

In Italy there are no such policies.

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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Nevertheles, north Italy actually fares quite well in comparison. Lombardy and Milan have a very extensive network of local, regional and suburban rail. On par with any major metropolis in Europe. On a lesser extent, also Rome, Naples, Turin, Genoa, the Veneto region and Emilia Romagna.

Car ownership in the major italian cities is declining, from admittedly high levels.
Because of the recession and high petrol prices, not because of any advantage in using PT.

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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
The national government has invested in the past 20-30 years heavily in public transport: metros, new hurban rails, trams. Less than it could? maybe. Less than highways? I doubt it. We have opened a few km of highways in the last 20 years, France has opened much, much, much more.
Just in the North. Pretty convenient when you have a terrible divide.

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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
I guess France is stuck in "dolce vita" mentality?
The market has been stagnant for quite some time. Now it's quickly recovering. Light rail systems were inaugurated in 9 cities in the last 4 years.

Within cities, all metro systems in France carry more than 2.1 billion people each year. The same figure is about 800 million in Italy.

The same goes for trams, RERs, and trains.
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Old September 8th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #1762
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Yeah, and Italy has been detaining this record for a few decades by now, since construction work is never ending.
There are always projects coming and going.

Italy built more high-speed tunnels than any other European country last 20 years. Bologna-Firenze is almost entirely a 70km tunnel that gets not much recognition compared to the Gotthard and Lötschberg tunnels, despite being significantly more challenging in geological terms.

There is also the long tunnels between Salerno and Napoli, and other projects going around with city trunk underground lines like in Torino, Bologna and Firenze.


Quote:
Look at countries like Austria or Switzerland. Orography raises the cost of construction, yet they're able to get much more return on their investment, as their modal share is far higher. This is the result of succesful policies to cause a shift in mode.

In Italy there are no such policies.
Fuel in Italy costs more than in those countries, income is lower, insurance costs as least 50% more (and probably 200% more if you live in certain areas) for similar car and driver profile... costs of car motoring are very high in Italy, compared to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, especially if you adjust to wages-after-taxes.

As for orography, it plays a different whole. The Apennines are usually harder to excavate than the Alps. Moreover, Switzerland and Austria have gentle long valleys through which rail lines runs, Italy doens't have that luxury with few exceptions, and outside the Pianura Padana, in particular, it is impossible to build any high-performance rail in the hinterland unless massive tunneling is involved.

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Because of the recession and high petrol prices, not because of any advantage in using PT.
I don't udnerstand your obsession with car ownership. Car ownership is not that relevant, car usage would be a better indicator. People on richer countries might own cars, it is the pattern of use that counts.
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Old September 8th, 2014, 03:45 PM   #1763
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
There are always projects coming and going.

Italy built more high-speed tunnels than any other European country last 20 years. Bologna-Firenze is almost entirely a 70km tunnel that gets not much recognition compared to the Gotthard and Lötschberg tunnels, despite being significantly more challenging in geological terms.

There is also the long tunnels between Salerno and Napoli, and other projects going around with city trunk underground lines like in Torino, Bologna and Firenze.
And, in fact, the TAV network is a good thing indeed.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Fuel in Italy costs more than in those countries, income is lower, insurance costs as least 50% more (and probably 200% more if you live in certain areas) for similar car and driver profile... costs of car motoring are very high in Italy, compared to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, especially if you adjust to wages-after-taxes
Yet it has one of the highest motorization rates in the world. The failure of PT to attract users is, indeed, a failure. Not just a failure of realizing extensive networks, but also of providing a quality soft product, or enacting policies to stimulate it.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
As for orography, it plays a different whole. The Apennines are usually harder to excavate than the Alps. Moreover, Switzerland and Austria have gentle long valleys through which rail lines runs, Italy doens't have that luxury with few exceptions, and outside the Pianura Padana, in particular, it is impossible to build any high-performance rail in the hinterland unless massive tunneling is involved.
With an appropriate budget tunnelling can be done. I was previously criticizig a €10 billion motorway.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't udnerstand your obsession with car ownership. Car ownership is not that relevant, car usage would be a better indicator. People on richer countries might own cars, it is the pattern of use that counts.
Car ownership may lead to car usage, isn't it? However, it's a far easier figure to find.

Last edited by Stravinsky; September 14th, 2014 at 11:15 PM.
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Old September 8th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #1764
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Car ownership may lead to car usage, isnt'it? However, it's a far easier figure to find.
The problem is that you ascribe to extreme views that people shouldn't own cars.

Many people who own cars will also use public transport for trips where it is convenient. Most people are not ideologically against cars, neither are them going to use car for every trip just because they own it.

Example: here in Netherlands, the majority of cyclists above age 21 live in households that own 1 or more cars. That doesn't mean they won't cycle, or that anti-car policies (instead of pro-cycling infrastructure) are the key to promote cycling.

Likewise, it is not "fighting the car" that will increase usage of trains or trams in Italy. Italy has the dreaded and IMO immoral ZTL (zona traffico limitato) on more than 80 cities, restricting access by car to the core central areas, something that no other developed country in Europe has.

Moreover, high-speed rail has the potential to grow the economy increasing mobility between regions, making trips once unfeasible now possible (like commutes between Bologna and Milano, or daily commutes Roma-Napoli). It competes with the high-distnace end of car trips and the low-distance end of flights.

Driving between Milano and Roma takes 6h30 on reasonable speed door-to-door and one intermediate stop for rest. A train takes less than 3h station-from-station, then if you add transportation to/from station on both places it may be a total of 4 hours. You can also fly, taking 45min of airbone time + 90 min of airport processing time = 2h15min, plus time to go to/from airport.
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Old September 8th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #1765
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem is that you ascribe to extreme views that people shouldn't own cars.
No. The point is that if you provide high-quality alternatives to them, people won't need one car per head. The post-AV Rome–Milan route is a nice example.

ZTLs serve another purpose. They manage vehicular demand. Without them, it would be even higher.

Pretty much like congestion charging or those draconian taxes they have in Denmak
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Old September 9th, 2014, 03:34 PM   #1766
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"Fuel in Italy costs more than in those countries, income is lower, insurance costs as least 50% more (and probably 200% more if you live in certain areas) for similar car and driver profile... costs of car motoring are very high in Italy, compared to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands, especially if you adjust to wages-after-taxes."



Guys, in Italy there will be a crisis (equal to France, Spain, and now it 's the turn of Germany) but do not overdo it with the denigration and' pessimism!
Italy and 'the second country after Germany manufacturing and industrial, and' the third largest economy of Europe and the seventh in the world!
Ok there is a crisis, but we are still a country of 60 million people, we're not Finland with 4 cats and an economy as big as my region!
When you talk of Italy seems to speak of Greece as a whole in comparison (with all due respect for Greek friends).

I want to clarify the situation and 'the costs of which you speak are not the same throughout Italy. Did you know that 'divided into two parts, and the south and' one where the crisis and the rates are more 'high!
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Old September 9th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #1767
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Ah?
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Old September 9th, 2014, 04:50 PM   #1768
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What are these mythical Finish cats you speak of?

Seriously though: the point is not the relative size of the Italian industrial sector compared to other EU nations because nobody can really seriously contest that it's one of the largest and most important states in that respect.

The point is rather that it's not going well, overall. Growth figures are low and bureaucracy and bad politics are stifling economic innovation while youth unemployment remains too high.

If Italy is doing well now, consider how ******* great it could be doing with better leadership.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #1769
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Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
What are these mythical Finish cats you speak of?

It's an Italian expression roughly translated into English
"There are 4 cats" = there are only a few people

Quote:
Seriously though: the point is not the relative size of the Italian industrial sector compared to other EU nations because nobody can really seriously contest that it's one of the largest and most important states in that respect.

The point is rather that it's not going well, overall. Growth figures are low and bureaucracy and bad politics are stifling economic innovation while youth unemployment remains too high.

If Italy is doing well now, consider how ******* great it could be doing with better leadership.
Totally agreed.
You can't imagine how bad it felt, to grow up and see your country vote for Berlusconi for 3 times. Every time it happened, you knew that your country was going to have huge damage from it and waste billions of euro.

Luckily he's politically dead, and we've finally began going through the right road now. Hope it's true and not just an illusion. It'll take a while to see the results, though.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #1770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
What are these mythical Finish cats you speak of?

Seriously though: the point is not the relative size of the Italian industrial sector compared to other EU nations because nobody can really seriously contest that it's one of the largest and most important states in that respect.

The point is rather that it's not going well, overall. Growth figures are low and bureaucracy and bad politics are stifling economic innovation while youth unemployment remains too high.

If Italy is doing well now, consider how ******* great it could be doing with better leadership.

You're absolutely right, but we think in this way, if Italy had the same power "financial" in the USA and ell 'England, maintaining the same economic data now, then it would be a superpower!
I remember that Italy and 'for years that has accounts in order and it was' the only country that is 3%, compared to the USA and the UK average of private debt and more government' lowest in the world among the powers economic, Italian citizens are less indebted than in the USA and UK.
The crisis and 'born in financial circles and Americans' English for non-compliance of the rules in 2008, and not' I was born in Italy, in France they do in Spain!
The Americans have every need to make a law to increase the maximum amount of public debt not to go bankrupt !!!!
Germany has a public debt more 'high but compared to other EU countries is not accounted for in debt some items of expenditure to the contrary that accounts for all of Italy, and' this makes it seem's debt germany lowest of what is' really! not to mention their employment and 'manipulated by the Mini job etc. ......:-)
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Old September 9th, 2014, 09:58 PM   #1771
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Within EU and associated countries it's very easy to see where life is currently better and where not. No complicated stats needed all you need to do is look at movement of people, particularly young people. Are there more Germans looking for jobs and opportunity in Italy or vice versa? Right now the answer is quite clear. Who knows in 20 years maybe different…
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Old September 9th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #1772
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Originally Posted by intersezioni View Post
You're absolutely right, but we think in this way, if Italy had the same power "financial" in the USA and ell 'England, maintaining the same economic data now, then it would be a superpower!
I remember that Italy and 'for years that has accounts in order and it was' the only country that is 3%, compared to the USA and the UK average of private debt and more government' lowest in the world among the powers economic, Italian citizens are less indebted than in the USA and UK.
The crisis and 'born in financial circles and Americans' English for non-compliance of the rules in 2008, and not' I was born in Italy, in France they do in Spain!
The Americans have every need to make a law to increase the maximum amount of public debt not to go bankrupt !!!!
Germany has a public debt more 'high but compared to other EU countries is not accounted for in debt some items of expenditure to the contrary that accounts for all of Italy, and' this makes it seem's debt germany lowest of what is' really! not to mention their employment and 'manipulated by the Mini job etc. ......:-)
This is totally Google Translate
You should also check your spelling, when writing in Italian, especially if you want to Google-translate it.

dell'Inghilterra = of England
ell'Inghilterra = ell'England


è = is
e' = and'


So it all becomes impossible to understand
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Old September 9th, 2014, 10:19 PM   #1773
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Totally off-topic, but I hope to live long enough to see machine translating tools so good that I can write in good Italian without actually knowing the language. I think the tools are moving in the right direction already.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 10:33 PM   #1774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intersezioni View Post
You're absolutely right, but we think in this way, if Italy had the same power "financial" in the USA and ell 'England, maintaining the same economic data now, then it would be a superpower!
I remember that Italy and 'for years that has accounts in order and it was' the only country that is 3%, compared to the USA and the UK average of private debt and more government' lowest in the world among the powers economic, Italian citizens are less indebted than in the USA and UK.
The crisis and 'born in financial circles and Americans' English for non-compliance of the rules in 2008, and not' I was born in Italy, in France they do in Spain!
The Americans have every need to make a law to increase the maximum amount of public debt not to go bankrupt !!!!
Germany has a public debt more 'high but compared to other EU countries is not accounted for in debt some items of expenditure to the contrary that accounts for all of Italy, and' this makes it seem's debt germany lowest of what is' really! not to mention their employment and 'manipulated by the Mini job etc. ......:-)
Awesome!
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Old September 10th, 2014, 01:23 AM   #1775
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Berlusconi governments were bad in many senses, but to his credit, he did poured money into infrastructure projects, especially high-speed rail and totally renovated stations for high-speed hubs. Some € 25-30 billion (exact figures are contested depending on how you account for them) were invested on building the major axis (except the Direttissima Roma-Firenze which had been built much earlier), the renovated stations, and modernization of several sectors for higher speeds, between debt accrued by RFI and other state agents, and direct public investment out of general budget - all excluding Trenitalia expenses with rolling stock and operational deficit of course.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 12:16 PM   #1776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper90 View Post
This is totally Google Translate
You should also check your spelling, when writing in Italian, especially if you want to Google-translate it.

dell'Inghilterra = of England
ell'Inghilterra = ell'England


è = is
e' = and'


So it all becomes impossible to understand
I noticed that. I was translating it back into Italian in my head as I was reading it.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 09:24 PM   #1777
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(Last off-topic post: for everyone that understands Italian or wants to Google-translate it: it is an article on a recently completed new motorway, still basically unused after two months from the opening. An interesting reflection on the opportunity of building brand-new toll roads when not needed.)

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/14_s...8c813bce.shtml
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Old September 10th, 2014, 10:58 PM   #1778
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Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
(Last off-topic post: for everyone that understands Italian or wants to Google-translate it: it is an article on a recently completed new motorway, still basically unused after two months from the opening. An interesting reflection on the opportunity of building brand-new toll roads when not needed.)

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/14_s...8c813bce.shtml
This is not a true account of the situation. This new highway (Bre-Me-Mi) will only be fully integrated with the rest of the network when another highway (TEEM) is completed - it is currently u/c. Right now it is an isolated project.

When the first part of the Torino-Milano HSL was opened only until Novara, many deemed it a complete waste of money, since few trains used it and it had costed a lot. The BreMeMi is on a comparable situation. It was barely open some weeks ago as well, you should never judge the success of a major new infrastructure on its first weeks of operation, that is crazy.

Actually, all high-speed rail projects in Italy have also been criticized heavily, especially Milano-Torino and Bologna-Firenze. But they are essential to provide fast transportation between major cities.
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Old September 13th, 2014, 09:01 AM   #1779
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Italy is a free country, people are free to buy cars with money they earn, after taxes.
They should be free to have a possibility to use an alternative mode (PT or bicycle) that is built up according to modern standards as well. Italy defenetely has a good PT in some areas but people get overall better transportation when shifting money from car infrastructure PT especially when we talk about motorways and huge road junctions.

There should be road access to property, I am not against it. But when there are options like building motorway or improving/building railway then it very obvious that railway gives better in return. A simple example, upgrading a road into motorway costs about the same than improving a rail line to 200km/h operation or building a new rail line. When we talk about service level of motorway vs rail then almost everibody would choose a fast train instead of going by car. Motorway takes you to the edge of city after that you must still consider shifting to another mode. The ones who defenetely need to go by car, carrying lot of staff with them, national roads will cover their needs totally.
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Old September 13th, 2014, 09:11 AM   #1780
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
When the first part of the Torino-Milano HSL was opened only until Novara, many deemed it a complete waste of money, since few trains used it and it had costed a lot.
Well, today we know it costed around 8 billion euro (but with the upgrade of nearby A4, I think...), and it is used by just 1 or 2 trains per hour per direction. Basically, it is empty.

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Actually, all high-speed rail projects in Italy have also been criticized heavily, especially Milano-Torino and Bologna-Firenze. But they are essential to provide fast transportation between major cities.
No, they aren't essential (at least the Milan-Turin line), as in many cases tickets are too expensive for Italian citizens, which consequently don't use them.
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