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Old March 17th, 2016, 03:00 AM   #1881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Is this the reason why the travel time between Milan and Rome is to be cut by 40 minutes?

What are the before and after travel times between Milan and Naples?
Not only. Florence HS underpass is U/C and will help a lot in decreasing travel times.

I seriously doubt though that 40 minutes will be cut: it would mean an average speed of 245km/h, too high IMHO.
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Old March 17th, 2016, 09:45 PM   #1882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
Not only. Florence HS underpass is U/C and will help a lot in decreasing travel times.

I seriously doubt though that 40 minutes will be cut: it would mean an average speed of 245km/h, too high IMHO.
A couple of posts above yours Eddard Stark said the trip was going to be 2 hours 20 minutes.

The press seems to confirm this...
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Old March 18th, 2016, 12:46 AM   #1883
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Very unlikely to happen anytime soon.

I guess we'll have to wait at least 3-5 years more.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 01:41 AM   #1884
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Maybe considering the stations of Milan Rogoredo and Rome Tiburtina, located quite in the outskirts of these cities and near the ends of the HSL.

From these stations to the central ones around 10-15 minutes must be added on each side.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 01:51 AM   #1885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Maybe considering the stations of Milan Rogoredo and Rome Tiburtina, located quite in the outskirts of these cities and near the ends of the HSL. From these stations to the central ones around 10-15 minutes must be added on each side.
Tiburtina is not in the outskirts. Anyway I agree, 2:40 seems more realistic but I had people saying 3h was impossible...
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Old March 20th, 2016, 06:15 AM   #1886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No, AFAIK there aren't slab track sections in Italy, except some tunnels (like the two longest between Bolzano/Bozen and the Brenner Pass, on the Pondebbana railway and maybe in the Bologna city tunnel) and a test section between Rome and Florence (HSL).

And certainly there are no slab tracks on HSLs, excepts on the two sections cited above.
And how are the trains suposed to run at 350 Km/H?
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Old March 21st, 2016, 12:41 AM   #1887
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...with rails posed on traditional ballast. They already reached 385,5 km/h running on ballast.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 01:30 AM   #1888
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I understand now, they are making big announcements....we will see what the reality actually bring us. The only commercial services at 350 Km/H where performed and then retrieved by the chinese.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 03:14 AM   #1889
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Last year I asked in the Spain HSR forum:

Quote:
Hi!

I have a question that I can't find on the web (maybe I didn't search for it properly). There are lots of 350km/h tracks in Spain but one is still 310km/h: the Madrid Barcelona High Speed Line.
Why it is still so "slow" (even raised once from 300 km/h)? I read that it had planned for 350km/h too and also the Siemens trainsets are capable of this speed. The line is probably one of the most important in the country and connects the 2 major cities...
Thanks in advance!
and here is the answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

There is a technical issue in running trains at speeds over 320 km/h.
Electric consumption goes skyrocketing over those speeds, and ballast may fly out of the trackbed.
On the other hand, 300/320 km/h is a reasonably high speed, isn't it?
Is that ballast fly-out depends on train types or not? If not, I don't know how they will solve this problem. However the electric consumption is not a problem of new Frecciarossa 1000s and .NTV Italo AGV trainsets I guess.
(As I know the ETCS will be upgraded so the line will capable of this speed, the alignment of the line is already capable at these places, problems may occur only because the ballasted track)
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Old March 21st, 2016, 12:37 PM   #1890
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Yes there is a difference between trains, the Velaro and ICE 3M had more problems than TGV on the LGV Est to 320 km/h, the Talgo S-102 have more problems than Velaro S-103 in Spain at 310 km/h, ICE 1 and 2 are slowed on ballast in Germany. Part of the Tohoku Shinkansen traveling at 320 km/h on slab track. China was circulated to 350 km/h (now 309) on slab track.

I understand that going to circulate to 350 km/h will be on slab track, not on ballast.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 01:22 PM   #1891
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Used the frecciarossa last week between Milan and Bologna and return, both times it stopped in the middle of nowhere accumulating around 20 minutes delays, maybe I was just unlucky but I am puzzled at talks of increasing the speed when it would be nice to see it functioning properly at the current speed
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:39 AM   #1892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
I understand that going to circulate to 350 km/h will be on slab track, not on ballast.
Trenitalia has been running tests at speeds > 350 km/h since months on a line with ballast. There are no reports of ETR.400 trainsets damaged by flying stones

I think that the problem is solvable and they solved it.
Anyway, there is no chanche that RFI will ever replace 1000 km of ballast with slab tracks...

Regarding the actual use of 360 km/h in commercial service, many think that is a matter of opportunity. It is expensive, indeed: power consumption, additional maintenance to trainsets, additional maintenance on tracks, complicates the construction of the timetable... they may use it only for trains Milano-Roma with no intermediate calls, or just for a couple of years to get marketing advantage over the competitor NTV...

As far as I remember, the Chinese reduced the maximum speed of their trains after this crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision and the following criticism on HS operations. I hope that will not be the case in Italy
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:58 AM   #1893
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Speed reduction in China was earlier, although everyone thinks otherwise. And it was for economic reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
From Wikipedia (in spanish, sorry, but sources are in english):
“In April 2011, the new Minister of Railways Sheng Guangzu said that due to corruption, safety may have been compromised on some construction projects and completion dates may have to be pushed back.[44] Sheng announced that all trains in the high speed rail network would operate at a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph) beginning on July 1, 2011
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4cd5723e-6685-11e0-ac4d-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1Jn3JecpQ
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9MJ64RO0.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/7351162.html
This was in response to concerns over safety, low ridership due to high ticket prices,
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-high-speed-rail-dilemma-2011-1
and high energy usage.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703983104576262330447308782.html[/URL]
On June 13, 2011, the MOR clarified in a press conference that the speed reduction was not due to safety concerns but to offer more affordable tickets for trains at 250 km/h (155 mph) and increase ridership. Higher speed train travel uses greater energy and imposes more wear on expensive machinery. Railway officials lowered the top speed of trains on most lines that were running at 350 km/h (217 mph) to 300 km/h (186 mph)”.
..........
The Wenzhou train collision was July 23, 2011 on a reduced to 200 km/h line.
..........
In China it is commercially circulated to 350 km/h between 01/08/2008 (Beijing-Tianjin) and at least 28/08/2011 (Wuhan-Guangzhou), to my knowledge. From 01/07/2011 was reduced line-to-line speed. CRH2C-2, CRH3C and CRH380A circulated at that speed were.
Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Since it seems that no one answered, I will with my bad English. Sorry

The current maximum speed is 309 km/h, and was never circulated to 380 in commercial service.

Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways announced in April his successor a change in policy on HS: the speed of the HSR will be reduced from 350 to 300 km/h in July, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.

Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and new trains CRH380A.
July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.
In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line and 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.
After the accident nor the maximum speed of 350 km/h was reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were 380A factory to make changes, since continued to fail.
Obviously replacing ballast for slab tracks is not an option.

In Spain, a Velaro circulated to 403 km/h in tests.


The Spanish section to 310 km/h requires a special maintenance and the ballast is located a few centimeters below the sleepers.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 09:29 PM   #1894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
]
The Spanish section to 310 km/h requires a special maintenance and the ballast is located a few centimeters below the sleepers.
Just 10 km/h extra makes so much difference?
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 01:38 PM   #1895
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Yes, they have lowered 4 cm ballast to increase 10 km/h, although you can say that it is a test, not something useful: are only allowed 310 km/h for a few trains and are all Velaro.

Another attempted solution has been the Aerotraviesa (Aero-sleeper), which prevents stones from getting above the sleeper after the passage of a train.

A video from ADIF with stones flying.

Last edited by Gusiluz; March 23rd, 2016 at 01:44 PM.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 03:52 PM   #1896
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Very nice video. What I see is not flying stones; they show moving test cubes, and they move only because they were manually placed on top the sleepers, in the middle of the air turbulence. They didn't fly, they fell in the space between the sleepers.

Anyway, it clearly demonstrates that there is come interaction between air flow and stones, and it should be studied before increasing speed (as ADIF is doing).
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 04:06 PM   #1897
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I'm a bif fan of ballastless tracks, and I wish Italy had used more of it when building the high speed lines (a moot point by now, I concede).

They are much smoother and require far less maintenance.
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Old March 23rd, 2016, 10:49 PM   #1898
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Isn't there also a stretch in France (Mulhouse-Dijon line) where speeds up to 320 km/h are allowed in commercial traffic? I don't think there is a ballastless track there either.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 01:01 AM   #1899
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Quote:
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They are much smoother and require far less maintenance.
FS/RFI experimented ballastless track on the northern stretch of the new "Pontebbana" line from Udine to Tarvisio/Austria, opened in 2000; since then, at least part of it has been reconverted to ballast configuration. Apparently, slab tracks have other problems, at least that type of.

I haven't much more details, I can report this:
Quote:
questo nuovo sistema (a suo tempo presentato con lo slogan "quasi come volare") ha mostrato sempre pi¨ incrinature e segni di cedimento,e, come Ŕ stato ricordato,sul binario dispari la velocitÓ Ŕ stata ridotta,rallentamento in orario,da 180 a 80
this new system (at the time presented as "just like flying) showed increasing cracks and signs of fatigue, and, as remembered by others, on one of the two tracks the speed was reduced from 180 to 80 km/h
http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtop...739371#p739371
the guy writing this is an author of books and articles on the railways of the area.
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Old March 24th, 2016, 04:15 PM   #1900
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Are there any plans to have a high speed line between Genova and Firenze? Perhaps going along the coast via La Spezia to Pisa and then Firenze?

It would connect middle/southern Italy to western Europe.
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