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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:20 AM   #1961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
I'm not talking about building new lines.

Frecciabianca services run between Rome and Genova about every 120 minutes, and most of them take 4 hours 46 minutes between Genova Brignole and Roma Termini. These services run on the coastal line between Rome and Pisa via Grosseto and Livorno.

There is one service though between Roma Termini and Genova Brignole that makes the trip in 4 hours 8 minutes, and only 4 hours on the way back. That service runs on the high speed line from Rome to Florence, then on the conventional line from Florence to Genova via Empoli - Pisa - La Spezia.

So I am surprised that there aren't more of those "fast" services which reduce the journey time by about 45 minutes.
Roma - Firenze DD line is packed with trains in the Roma - Orte and Valdarno - Firenze stretches. It's really expensive to add more HS trains there.

Moreover, those DD services to Genova were usually empty, in fact Trenitalia removed them from schedule with the Winter timetable, but then reinstated them with part of the cost payed by Regione Liguria.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:37 AM   #1962
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Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
Moreover, those DD services to Genova were usually empty, in fact Trenitalia removed them from schedule with the Winter timetable, but then reinstated them with part of the cost payed by Regione Liguria.
Are you saying the train was empty between Florence and Genoa? Because the first stretch is just a regular Rome-Florence train and surely not empty. Actually is there a regular Florence-Genoa train not originating in Rome?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 09:01 AM   #1963
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When the new HS line Milano-Genova is completed it will be faster to travel all the way through Bologna and Milano than via the coastal route. Especially if they put through services not calling at Milano Centrale and reversing there
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:47 AM   #1964
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No, it won't. Going throuh Florence - Pisa will still be faster and way cheaper than going through HSL via Milano or Piacenza.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:49 AM   #1965
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Are you saying the train was empty between Florence and Genoa? Because the first stretch is just a regular Rome-Florence train and surely not empty. Actually is there a regular Florence-Genoa train not originating in Rome?
No Florence - Genova HST, no. Only regional or InterCity I guess. Not sure.

Those two trains per day are very ealry in the morning and late at night, so very few actually used them for the whole journey (Roma - Genova). They are more used for the two legs Roma - Firenze and Firenze - Genova rather than the whole trip.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 01:23 PM   #1966
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According to the Spanish specialized magazine VÝa Libre, the changes in Italy are:

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A new FrecciaRossa Milan-Roma-Taranto is created with the most modern material of Trenitalia, ETR 1000
A new FrecciaRossa (also with ETR 1000) is added Brescia-Milan-Rome; A second FrecciaArgento Roma-Bergamo and two new FrecciaRossa Rome-Milan were created, bringing the number of Trenitalia services in ordinary days between the two cities to 94.
With the opening of the Milan-Brescia high-speed section, ten minutes are earned on the Milan-Venice route, allowing the introduction of new FrecciaRossa services (now majority) in the Turin-Milan-Venice corridor.
Finally, it introduces 1 FrecciaArgento instead of an IC between Rome and Reggio di Calabria, avoiding the entrance in Naples Centrale and reducing in twenty-five minutes the route.
At the international level, one of the services EC Verona-Munich is permanently extended to Bologna, rather than only in season.
Private operator NTV increases its Italo outbound services between Rome and Naples from thirty to 34.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #1967
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Hi,

What is the current speed limit of the railways Torino-Genova and Genova-Milano? They are planned to be upgraded up to 300km/h, aren't they?

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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:42 PM   #1968
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Hi,

What is the current speed limit of the railways Torino-Genova and Genova-Milano? They are planned to be upgraded up to 300km/h, aren't they?
No. No 300 km/h at all.

Milano - Genova is split basically in two stretches, first one having 180/200 km/h limit and second one topping at way less.

But they're building the "Terzo Valico" which will increase speed to 230/250 km/h all the way from Genova to Tortona.

From Torino, nothing will change. But trains from there to Genova will reach Novi Ligure on the old line and then they'll go via the new Terzo Valico.

Torino - Alessandria line speed varies, but mostly is 150-160-180 km/h (maximum permitted with 4-code BACC system).
Alessandria - Novi - Arquata Scrivia line speed varies more, from 80km/h to 180km/h.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:47 PM   #1969
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Italian railway old alignments are not necessarily bad, but from a historical perspective the SCMT (sistema controllo marcia treno) held speeds and operational efficiency back.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:51 PM   #1970
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And still is way more efficient and safe compared to some very old systems, like AWS in UK.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:17 AM   #1971
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And still is way more efficient and safe compared to some very old systems, like AWS in UK.
Sure.

The major limitation of SCMT is that is doesn't have double feedback to confirm input into train safety system.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 02:22 AM   #1972
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Well that surprises me that demand for Rome - Genova trains is that low! But it makes sense knowing that the line between Rome and Florence is pretty full.

What is the minimum time between trains on that line? 5 minutes?
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Old January 6th, 2017, 02:31 AM   #1973
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Well that surprises me that demand for Rome - Genova trains is that low! But it makes sense knowing that the line between Rome and Florence is pretty full.

What is the minimum time between trains on that line? 5 minutes?
No way, it's more.

10,8km minimum distance, but at least 5x5400m (red-yellow-green-medium green-super green) to have full speed allowance.

I'd say that is at least 10 minutes theoretically.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 01:16 PM   #1974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
No. No 300 km/h at all.

Milano - Genova is split basically in two stretches, first one having 180/200 km/h limit and second one topping at way less.

But they're building the "Terzo Valico" which will increase speed to 230/250 km/h all the way from Genova to Tortona.

From Torino, nothing will change. But trains from there to Genova will reach Novi Ligure on the old line and then they'll go via the new Terzo Valico.

Torino - Alessandria line speed varies, but mostly is 150-160-180 km/h (maximum permitted with 4-code BACC system).
Alessandria - Novi - Arquata Scrivia line speed varies more, from 80km/h to 180km/h.
OK thanks. I thought these lines would become tails of the so called main NS high-speed backbone Milano-Salerno. Genova is an important freight destination and an upgrade to 230-250km/h from Milano/Zurich will also do. Torino on the other hand is not so far away from the joint at Novi Ligure.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:16 AM   #1975
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The major limitation of SCMT is that is doesn't have double feedback to confirm input into train safety system.
It was also implemented without discarding nor updating old rules that slow down operations. As an example: if a train enters a station with the green light, but the following signal to exit the station is red, the train has to proceed at 30 km/h until it stops for service. It is forbidden to enter the station at, say, 60 km/h, and then brake only when close to the stopping point. Therefore, if the entering signal is placed quite far from the platform, the train can run for a couple of minutes at 30 km/h or even less, because the driver doesn't want to risk a full stop commanded by SCMT.
And if you multiply these 2 extra minutes for each stop along a line...
And if you consider that some station/line managers couldn't care less about preparing the second signal to green to avoid this, even when they could...
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Old January 7th, 2017, 12:35 AM   #1976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narkelion View Post
No. No 300 km/h at all.

Milano - Genova is split basically in two stretches, first one having 180/200 km/h limit and second one topping at way less.

But they're building the "Terzo Valico" which will increase speed to 230/250 km/h all the way from Genova to Tortona.

From Torino, nothing will change. But trains from there to Genova will reach Novi Ligure on the old line and then they'll go via the new Terzo Valico.

Torino - Alessandria line speed varies, but mostly is 150-160-180 km/h (maximum permitted with 4-code BACC system).
Alessandria - Novi - Arquata Scrivia line speed varies more, from 80km/h to 180km/h.
I was impressed with the speed between Torino and Genova, faster than any regular IC in Holland (until the mountains slow you down).
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Old January 7th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #1977
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A good map of "Terzo Valico" can be found here.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 06:22 PM   #1978
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Quote:
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It was also implemented without discarding nor updating old rules that slow down operations. As an example: if a train enters a station with the green light, but the following signal to exit the station is red, the train has to proceed at 30 km/h until it stops for service. It is forbidden to enter the station at, say, 60 km/h, and then brake only when close to the stopping point. Therefore, if the entering signal is placed quite far from the platform, the train can run for a couple of minutes at 30 km/h or even less, because the driver doesn't want to risk a full stop commanded by SCMT.
And if you multiply these 2 extra minutes for each stop along a line...
And if you consider that some station/line managers couldn't care less about preparing the second signal to green to avoid this, even when they could...
You are describing the unavoidable behaviour any older ATC system without full curve monitoring will have (and I mean a system that like ETCS calculates where you have to start braking to stop in time and allow track speed up to that point). You could ease that by using shorter blocks or moving the distant signal closer to the stopping point.
Now eventually this will be solved when ERTMS is introduced. But that will probably be a while.
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Old January 8th, 2017, 11:20 PM   #1979
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is there a map of Freccia services to see where operates Frecciabianca, where Frecciargento, and where Frecciarossa?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 04:42 PM   #1980
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