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Old August 6th, 2014, 02:43 PM   #1461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Just some comments about my trip through Bosnia recently :


- Trebinje to Herceg Novi is very odd. The Bosnian section is excellent, but what the hell am I paying 3 Euro for on the Montenegrin side?
the road was build as a private-public-partnership project and is under concession... political games in Montenegro...

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At least one part of Bosnia, Federation is changing the numbers, Republika Srpska not.
Do you have any source or further information on this?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 03:19 PM   #1462
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Yes, here
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Old August 6th, 2014, 07:11 PM   #1463
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The road numbers will be changed on November 15th, 2014.

Changes can be found here.

It's a pity that RS and FBiH don't work together because after the change of numbers, some road numbers will exist in both RS and FBiH, but can be in an other part of te country.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #1464
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More to the point, why are they all Mxxx rather than Mx upwards?

There's a complete lack of logic in those numbers - wouldn't it make much more sense (for example) for current M-2 at Neum to become M-8 to provide continuity with the Croatian side?

Even if Republika Srpska doesn't want to agree, surely the Federation should be implementing a numbering system on an all-Bosnia basis (like Ireland and Germany did) rather than some regionalised nonsense?
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:05 PM   #1465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
More to the point, why are they all Mxxx rather than Mx upwards?

There's a complete lack of logic in those numbers - wouldn't it make much more sense (for example) for current M-2 at Neum to become M-8 to provide continuity with the Croatian side?

Even if Republika Srpska doesn't want to agree, surely the Federation should be implementing a numbering system on an all-Bosnia basis (like Ireland and Germany did) rather than some regionalised nonsense?
this is nonsense what you write. Repoublika Srpska is neither East Germany nor Northern Ireland. Second why would BiH "provide" continuity with Croatian īnumbering system, Croats introduced their new system according to logic they find fitting and which make sense only if the whole country is observed as such. On the other hand BiH system shouldn't be based on "filling Croatia gaps", but system that will make logic for BiH. I also find it pitiful because FBiH and RS didn't sit and introduce system that will make logic for entire BiH.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:10 PM   #1466
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Originally Posted by Palance View Post
The road numbers will be changed on November 15th, 2014.

Changes can be found here.

It's a pity that RS and FBiH don't work together because after the change of numbers, some road numbers will exist in both RS and FBiH, but can be in an other part of te country.
I think they have introduced 3 digit system for highways (magiustrala) in Federation BiH to avoid overlapping with current numbers in RS.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:22 PM   #1467
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this is nonsense what you write. Repoublika Srpska is neither East Germany nor Northern Ireland.
But if you consider that the majority within the Federation wish for a unitary state centred on Sarajevo, it would make perfect sense to create numbers that can be extended to RS as and when RS might agree. A well designed system might well be adopted by a future Republika Srpska government that wants to work with the Federation.

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quSecond why would BiH "provide" continuity with Croatian numbering system, Croats introduced their new system according to logic they find fitting and which make sense only if the whole country is observed as such.
In the case like this, it makes perfect sense to have some sort of logical system so the number stays the same. From there, encouraging Montenegro to also adopt M8 for their current M2 means tourists can follow the same number south.

Road numbers are there to make navigation easier - I see no harm in Bosnia using M-8 through Neum.

Quote:
On the other hand BiH system shouldn't be based on "filling Croatia gaps", but system that will make logic for BiH. I also find it pitiful because FBiH and RS didn't sit and introduce system that will make logic for entire BiH.
Of course, but numbers should also be logically arranged - confusing people with Mxxx when either side of Neum has D8 is just silly.

As for why FBiH and RS didn't agree on a system - well, just shows how weak the central government is really.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 08:42 PM   #1468
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
But if you consider that the majority within the Federation wish for a unitary state centred on Sarajevo, it would make perfect sense to create numbers that can be extended to RS as and when RS might agree. A well designed system might well be adopted by a future Republika Srpska government that wants to work with the Federation..
Bosnia doesnt equal part of Federation or Sarajevo and you don't understand the country and its political system, so please don't play smart and stick to the roads,
Quote:
In the case like this, it makes perfect sense to have some sort of logical system so the number stays the same. From there, encouraging Montenegro to also adopt M8 for their current M2 means tourists can follow the same number south.

Road numbers are there to make navigation easier - I see no harm in Bosnia using M-8 through Neum.
Or make Croatia to change/return their number to 2.
You still don't understand the logic?
Quote:
Of course, but numbers should also be logically arranged - confusing people with Mxxx when either side of Neum has D8 is just silly.
It is just silly to expect the same numbering in different countries, and if people are so silly not to get it that they have entered new country too bad for them.
Quote:
As for why FBiH and RS didn't agree on a system - well, just shows how weak the central government is really.
Again your ignorance, "central government" consist of political representatives from RS and FBiH and it doesn't have jurisdiction over this matter.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #1469
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Or make Croatia to change/return their number to 2.
There are still mile markers on the Croatian D8 bearing the (old) road number 2, so changing back to D2 would be more logical
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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:44 PM   #1470
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Bosnia doesnt equal part of Federation or Sarajevo and you don't understand the country and its political system, so please don't play smart and stick to the roads,
I think I understand the political system just fine. It's pretty illogical (even by Balkan standards) for the majority-Bosniak Federation to introduce road numbers catering only for the Federation when in many other areas, they do things on an all-Bosnia basis. The Federation promotes tourism on an All-Bosnia basis, so why not roads?

Unless you're telling me that the Bosniaks suddenly have embraced the entity concept, which would be strange.

Quote:
Or make Croatia to change/return their number to 2.
You still don't understand the logic?
There's no logic to not taking the chance to introduce numbers that work for everyone. The M-2 being changed to M-8 makes perfect sense, changing it to Mxxx makes no sense for anyone.

Quote:
It is just silly to expect the same numbering in different countries, and if people are so silly not to get it that they have entered new country too bad for them.
But what harm is there in providing consistent numbering when it makes perfect sense for everyone? Having said that, the M-2 is signed as "Magistrala" in Neum.

Quote:
Again your ignorance, "central government" consist of political representatives from RS and FBiH and it doesn't have jurisdiction over this matter.
What ignorance?

It's merely an observation that it's an absurdity for the entities to have control over road numbering, which really should be decided by the central government rather than the entities.

Does this absurdity mean that Brcko can also renumber as they see fit?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #1471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I think I understand the political system just fine. It's pretty illogical (even by Balkan standards) for the majority-Bosniak Federation to introduce road numbers catering only for the Federation when in many other areas, they do things on an all-Bosnia basis. The Federation promotes tourism on an All-Bosnia basis, so why not roads?
jurisdiction, laws, regulation, have you ever heard of it? Switzerland can make road numbers for Sweden, but it will have no influence on Swedish numbering, neither it will get implemented.
Quote:
It's merely an observation that it's an absurdity for the entities to have control over road numbering, which really should be decided by the central government rather than the entities.

Does this absurdity mean that Brcko can also renumber as they see fit?
Wishes are one thing and reality is another, jurisdiction over roads lies at entity not state, the fact, if you have problem with that throw a penny in the wishing well btw Brcko has its numbering system for local roads L-BDX.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #1472
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this is getting interesting, who for Godīs sake has jurisdiction on "Magistrala" roads in the Brčko district? Since it is de iure a condominium of RS and FBiH i donīt get a clue... is there a district road authority which covers more than the local roads? Who maintains "Magistrala" roads within the districts territory?

Another thing, are there any plans for a new road numbering in the Republic of Srpska?
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Old August 7th, 2014, 11:59 PM   #1473
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jurisdiction, laws, regulation, have you ever heard of it? Switzerland can make road numbers for Sweden, but it will have no influence on Swedish numbering, neither it will get implemented.
Of course, but like I said - the Federation is majority-Bosniak and thus it's very odd that they're implementing a road system based on FBiH needs rather than on an all-Bosnia basis. Ireland and West Germany both numbered based on their wishes for a reunified country - so why hasn't the Federation?

Numbering only for the FBiH rather suggests that they've came to accept the entity system, which would be an interesting change.

Quote:
Wishes are one thing and reality is another, jurisdiction over roads lies at entity not state, the fact, if you have problem with that throw a penny in the wishing well
It is what it is, that's all. But wouldn't it be easier in the future if the RS decided to go along with an all-Bosnia numbering system?

I'm simply confused why the FBiH would implement something like this unilaterally, as well as being confused as to why road numbering is decided at entity level rather than an all-Bosnia level.

Quote:
btw Brcko has its numbering system for local roads L-BDX.
Any more information? And what will happen once the Federation renumbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christophorus
this is getting interesting, who for Godīs sake has jurisdiction on "Magistrala" roads in the Brčko district? Since it is de iure a condominium of RS and FBiH i donīt get a clue... is there a district road authority which covers more than the local roads? Who maintains "Magistrala" roads within the districts territory?
I assume Brcko has responsibility for their own roads. As I recall, Brcko is de jure counted as both FBiH and RS territory (so the RS can reach the 49% stipulated in Dayton), but is de facto operated as a third entity in most aspects. I think one of the few exceptions is that citizens of Brcko for voting purposes in entity/national elections are counted as either being in the FBiH or RS.

I know that both FBiH and RS were warned not to attempt to control Brcko in any way, and that the only law valid in Brcko is either law passed by the local government or by the BiH state-level institutions - so - if roads are an entity matter, then Brcko has control over roads.

Another question - if roads are regulated at the entity level, does that mean that motorways might also end up with different numbers?
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Old August 8th, 2014, 12:20 AM   #1474
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
More to the point, why are they all Mxxx rather than Mx upwards?

There's a complete lack of logic in those numbers - wouldn't it make much more sense (for example) for current M-2 at Neum to become M-8 to provide continuity with the Croatian side?

Even if Republika Srpska doesn't want to agree, surely the Federation should be implementing a numbering system on an all-Bosnia basis (like Ireland and Germany did) rather than some regionalised nonsense?
There is no common road-numbering system used in both Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland uses the same system as in Britain: M - Motorway, A - A class road, B - B class road.

The rest of Ireland (Republic of Ireland) uses its own system: M - Motorway, N - National road, R - Regional road, L - Local road.

Numbers are not co-ordinated. The M2 in Northern Ireland is not connected to the M2 in the Republic of Ireland.

Route numbers change when the border is crossed. The main route between Dublin and Derry (in Northern Ireland) is the M2/N2 in the Republic of Ireland, which becomes the A5 in Northern Ireland.

Even the destinations are marked differently. Destinations in the Republic of Ireland are shown using the English-language and Irish-language version of the name: e.g. DERRY/Doire. Destinations in Northern Ireland are only shown in the English language (e.g. Londonderry). Londonderry and Derry is the same place!

Neither are warning or regulatory signs co-ordinated. The Republic of Ireland uses yellow diamonds for warning signs (uniquely in Europe) whereas Northern Ireland uses red-bordered white triangles.

Speed limits in the Republic of Ireland are in km/h. In Northern Ireland they are in mph.

You couldn't have picked a better example of lack of co-ordination between two neighbouring jurisdictions.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 12:48 AM   #1475
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There is no common road-numbering system used in both Ireland and Northern Ireland.

You couldn't have picked a better example of lack of co-ordination between two neighbouring jurisdictions.
Ask yourself why the N3 is divided into two parts and you have your answer

Ireland very much has an all-Ireland numbering system, except it's not implemented in Northern Ireland. Exactly the same as West Germany did - the Federal Republic considered themselves to be the only lawful representative of the German state (hence why there was only a 'Permanent Representation' in East Berlin and not an embassy) - which is why after reunification, no renumbering was needed in the West. Ireland did exactly the same with the previous T/L numbering and the current N/M numbering.

What I'm saying is that it's truly odd that the FBiH hasn't followed a similar path here. However, the Mxxx numbers suggest that it's temporary in nature.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 09:20 AM   #1476
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Of course, but like I said - the Federation is majority-Bosniak and thus it's very odd that they're implementing a road system based on FBiH needs rather than on an all-Bosnia basis. Ireland and West Germany both numbered based on their wishes for a reunified country - so why hasn't the Federation?
To Repeat it to you, because you obviously don't understand Federation is neither Ireland nor West Germany. It is one part of state called BiH and in that part of BiH there are two sides deciding. BiH does not need reunifying, because state is unified, it is highly decentralized, but still unified.
Quote:
Numbering only for the FBiH rather suggests that they've came to accept the entity system, which would be an interesting change.

It is again not about wishes, but rules, laws an jurisdictions.
Quote:
It is what it is, that's all. But wouldn't it be easier in the future if the RS decided to go along with an all-Bosnia numbering system?
"All-Bosnia" numbering system exists now, Federation is making new system for it.
Quote:
I'm simply confused why the FBiH would implement something like this unilaterally.
rules, laws, jurisdiction.
Quote:
being confused as to why road numbering is decided at entity level rather than an all-Bosnia level.
constitution
Quote:
And what will happen once the Federation renumbers?
Brcko will proclaim independence
Quote:
if roads are regulated at the entity level, does that mean that motorways might also end up with different numbers?
You are really confused guy. It is not if the roads, but the roads are regulated on entity level. Motorways already have different numbers, with Republika Srpska motorway taking only European E number.
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Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
What I'm saying is that it's truly odd that the FBiH hasn't followed a similar path here.
Maybe they are not as confused as you are and realize that BiH is not Ireland or Germany.

BTW Brcko has jurisdiction over its network, link p. 6
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Old August 8th, 2014, 09:21 AM   #1477
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However, the Mxxx numbers suggest that it's temporary in nature.
how come? how this conclusion?
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Old August 8th, 2014, 11:40 AM   #1478
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To Repeat it to you, because you obviously don't understand Federation is neither Ireland nor West Germany. It is one part of state called BiH and in that part of BiH there are two sides deciding. BiH does not need reunifying, because state is unified, it is highly decentralized, but still unified.
And yet the majority within the Federation wish for it to become a unitary state and to abolish the entity system. That's why the FBiH tourist board promotes all of Bosnia, whereas the RS ignores FBiH.

There is a will on the part of the Bosniak plurality to abolish the entity system and to create a strong centralised state. So - just like Ireland and West Germany did, it doesn't make any sense to create a road numbering system for FBiH only from a purely political point of view. Even if their decision to number on an all-Bosnia basis would be ignored in RS, it would still make sense to have the same number (for instance) for both parts of the Sarajevo-Tuzla road.

As for talking about Bosnia being "unified" - I mean it in the sense of the entities and cantonal system being abolished and replaced with a strong central government, in accordance with the wishes of the largest group of voters. I can't see it happening, but it's strange that the representatives of the largest group of voters would deliberately move away from something that shows a unified Bosnia.

With the road numbers - I know it's the Balkans and therefore nonsense is endemic, but giving Mxxx numbers doesn't sound like something permanent at all. It seems rather like something you have on a temporary basis until a numbering plan can be agreed.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 03:22 AM   #1479
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Ask yourself why the N3 is divided into two parts and you have your answer

Ireland very much has an all-Ireland numbering system, except it's not implemented in Northern Ireland. Exactly the same as West Germany did - the Federal Republic considered themselves to be the only lawful representative of the German state (hence why there was only a 'Permanent Representation' in East Berlin and not an embassy) - which is why after reunification, no renumbering was needed in the West. Ireland did exactly the same with the previous T/L numbering and the current N/M numbering.

What I'm saying is that it's truly odd that the FBiH hasn't followed a similar path here. However, the Mxxx numbers suggest that it's temporary in nature.
The N3 route number was not allocated to the road between Ballyshannon in Co. Donegal and the border with Northern Ireland at Beleek in Co. Fermanagh until about 10 years ago.

Up to about 10 years ago it was a regional road, with an R2xx number.

The Republic of Ireland gave up its legal claim to Northern Ireland in 1998 when the Irish constitution was changed as part of the British-Irish Agreement (aka Good Friday Agreement).

There is no concept in the Republic of Ireland at government level that it is the 'only lawful representative' of the entire island of Ireland.

Look at the numbering of regional roads in the Republic of Ireland.

Regional route numbers are always in the format Rxxx and run from R100 to R999.

No numbers have remained unallocated in such a way as to permit existing road numbers in Northern Ireland to be incorporated into the system if there ever is reunification.

National roads aren't numbered in a way that suggests renumbering of existing roads in Northern Ireland could be incorporated into the system if there ever is reunification.

National Primary/Motorway road numbers begin with 1 and increase in an anti-clockwise fashion from Dublin until they reach N25 (because originally there were only 25 national primary routes). They begin again in an anti-clockwise fashion from Cork until they reach N33 in Co. Louth and then skip to N40 (Cork South Ring Road), then skip again until M50 (Dublin bypass motorway).

If presently unallocated N/M3x or N/M4x route numbers were used for existing roads in Northern Ireland, the pattern of the system, which follows an anti-clockwise pattern, would be completely disrupted.

This is also true for National Secondary routes (numbered from N51 to N87 at present, N88 - N99 are unallocated at present) and Local road numbers.

Basing your argument on one route number out of almost 10,000 individual route numbers is ridiculous, especially when you fail to realise that the route number was only changed years after the territorial claim was removed from the Irish constitution.

Last edited by marmurr1916; August 9th, 2014 at 03:29 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 09:20 AM   #1480
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let this guy he lives in some imaginary world, he is not worth commenting. I just fail to realise why is he let to write these fascistic propaganda here.
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