High Speed Freight

Riise · January 5th, 2007, 02:17 AM

High Speed Rail (HSR) is an option that is being looked at by many regional planning boards across the world. With the majority of North American cities having a low population density and being located at great distances from each other the lack of potential patronage decreases the feasibility of many North American HSR projects. For projects that are very close to being feasible and even for those that already are could High Speed Freight be a possible solution to increase a project’s feasibility?

A major problem that I see is the difference in weight/tonnage. According to the American Bureau of Transportation Statistics the average weight of a freight train in 2005 was 2903 tonnes while a Eurostar Capital Train weighs in at a mere 800 tonnes. Could this problem be solved by simply adding more locomotives? Since a Eurostar train requires an electrical power output of 12,240 kW a high speed freight train would need 47,251 kW. Another problem I can see is the length of freight trains but this would be solved if the HSR lines were completely segregated, as the passenger trains could run during the day while freight would be moved by night.

What do you guys think, is High Speed Freight a possibility?

***invincible*** · January 5th, 2007, 04:52 AM

I'm not that sure, but the problem with running freight at high speeds is axle load (the weight of each pair of wheels) and would put a lot more stress on the rails, requiring higher quality track and costlier maintenance.

Jean Luc · January 5th, 2007, 12:03 PM

AFAIK the first stage of the U.K.'s Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL1) from the Channel Tunnel to the outskirts of London was intended for use by freight trains, however I don't know if that's actually eventuated. Maybe the grades are too steep.

The French postal service (La Poste) uses a small fleet of yellow-coloured dedicated TGV trains to deliver mail to various parts of France.

eomer · January 5th, 2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean Luc

The French postal service (La Poste) uses a small fleet of yellow-coloured dedicated TGV trains to deliver mail to various parts of France.

Jean Luc · January 6th, 2007, 11:40 AM

Merci!

elfabyanos · January 13th, 2007, 03:21 PM

It's not just a problem of wear on the rails - the axles would be put under too much stress too. Passanger trains are able to keep weight down because the mjority of wha is needed is space for people to sit - space doesn't weigh anything. To make a freight train profitable a lot of weight is piled on a the wagons. Freight train wagons can be three times as heavy as a passenger car - but even normal train's cars are too heavy for hsr, and they only weigh a small percentage more. Remember the forces that the metals are put under increase at the square of the weight and a square of the speed. with conventional rail hs freight would be unlikely - however all stress problems are overcome with maglev so maybe high spdd freight maglev?

***Momo1435*** · January 13th, 2007, 03:33 PM

High speed freight won't be used for bulk goods, it will be used for lighter goods with a high value. The prices will be high, but the speed will compensate that because the products are earlier on their destination. The weight of the trains won't be the biggest problem, maintanence of the tracks is a bigger problem. It's best to do that at night in order not to disrupt the passenger services (Exept in France, but they are crazy), freight services often run at night, so there won't be any time left to check and repair the tracks in order to prevent disasters.

elfabyanos · January 13th, 2007, 06:35 PM

But the mojority of high-value low weight goods are shipped from overseas and their entire journey will be days - saving a few hours on arrival won't make any logistical difference to the shipping companies - and besides, if you filled up a normal train car with boxes of tv's it would still be at least ten tonnes more than having people in it.

***Momo1435*** · January 13th, 2007, 07:01 PM

High Speed Rail Cargo will serve major air cargo hubs with the rest of the hinterland. Speed is everything nowadays in cargo, the same goes for low costs. On the one hand you have the big mega containerships that are slow but have low prices. In order to compete with the low prices you have to go fast, air cargo is expensive so you have to compensate with speed. The difference in speed between High Speed Rail and a truck could be a deciding factor in chosing for air cargo instead of going for the sea.

Having said that, I must note that High Speed Rail Cargo can only be feasible if enough customers want to pay.

***invincible*** · January 14th, 2007, 11:37 AM

However, it's worth mentioning that running freight at normal speeds over rail is usually the most economical method anyway, and apart from loading a cargo ship, no other method can carry as much freight.

The plan in Australia is now to make sure the interstate rail network can support double-stacked container wagons.

Yardmaster · January 30th, 2007, 09:17 AM

Heavy trains running at high speeds can get into trouble if they need to stop in a hurry ...

this one hit a truck at a level-crossing.

elfabyanos · January 30th, 2007, 11:07 AM

Bloody Hell!!!

I'm assuming the freight train came out of nowhere....

Yardmaster · January 30th, 2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

Bloody Hell!!!

I'm assuming the freight train came out of nowhere....

No, the truck came out of no-where ... but I shouldn't speak ill of the dead.

elfabyanos · January 30th, 2007, 02:21 PM

You can see where the truck hit the back of the loco, or if it didn't it must have been the first trailer. There's got to be a kilotonne of wreckage there. It's a savage reminder of why road should not argue with rail.

Yardmaster · January 30th, 2007, 02:33 PM

The train had right-of-way.

Jean Luc · January 31st, 2007, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yardmaster

Heavy trains running at high speeds can get into trouble if they need to stop in a hurry ...

this one hit a truck at a level-crossing.

I don't know the details of this accident but it could have been avoided if the truck driver had stopped before the level crossing, looked and listened for trains in both directions. If he had done this he would have seen and heard the train. The track is straight and looks to be flat for some distance on both sides of the level crossing so seeing the train shouldn't have been difficult.

I don't understand the problem some drivers seem to have at railway crossings. Trains are heavy and take a long time to stop, so they have right of way, not motor vehicles on the road.

elfabyanos · January 31st, 2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yardmaster

The train had right-of-way.

Name a level crossing where the train DOESNT have right if way.

UD2 · January 31st, 2007, 04:49 PM

it's usually hard to not see trains... they're big...

Yardmaster · February 1st, 2007, 07:13 PM

I was just trying to pint out that running thousands of tons of freight atr very high speeds can have catastrophic consequences if something goes wrong.

I'm not excusing this accident in any way ... the truck driver should have seen the train and given way to it, the crossing should have been clearly sign-posted, etc. ... but this accident happened last year, and while it was notable, it certainly wasn't the only one. As I recall only the truck-driver was killed, but this was the main east-west freight line across southern Australia. an economic catastrophe.

Personally, I crossed railway lines without boom-gates at least six times in the last couple of days ... it makes me nervous.

rheintram · March 16th, 2008, 10:13 PM

In most countries in central Europe trains are only allowed to have a maximum length of 700m including locomotives. Denmark is an exception where trains can be 800m long. Additionally in Europe most major railways are electrified. This means trains can only have a certain height. In America most freight railways use Diesel engines and they are built for bigger heights. Hence there are many waggons that carry two containers above each other. Plus trains can be way longer: over a kilometer and longer. Hence the tonnage in America and Europe cannot be compared.

Trains like the TGV postal are really interesting, however they only work with a certain type of goods and cannot carry containers.

But there is an alternative: Conventional push-pull trains with highspeed locomotives, such as TAURUS 1216/ES U64 U4 (357km/h max speed) which works in four different electric systems. Double traction with this type of locomotive and freight cars which are enabled for speeds of 200 km/h and more would be an interesting addition to the high speed freight market.

January 5th, 2007, 02:17 AM	#1
Riise Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sprawlgary Posts: 77	High Speed Freight High Speed Rail (HSR) is an option that is being looked at by many regional planning boards across the world. With the majority of North American cities having a low population density and being located at great distances from each other the lack of potential patronage decreases the feasibility of many North American HSR projects. For projects that are very close to being feasible and even for those that already are could High Speed Freight be a possible solution to increase a project’s feasibility? A major problem that I see is the difference in weight/tonnage. According to the American Bureau of Transportation Statistics the average weight of a freight train in 2005 was 2903 tonnes while a Eurostar Capital Train weighs in at a mere 800 tonnes. Could this problem be solved by simply adding more locomotives? Since a Eurostar train requires an electrical power output of 12,240 kW a high speed freight train would need 47,251 kW. Another problem I can see is the length of freight trains but this would be solved if the HSR lines were completely segregated, as the passenger trains could run during the day while freight would be moved by night. What do you guys think, is High Speed Freight a possibility? __________________ "A city can be friendly to people or it can be friendly to cars, but it cannot be both" \| Enrique Penalosa

January 5th, 2007, 04:52 AM	#2
*invincible* Lurker Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,731	I'm not that sure, but the problem with running freight at high speeds is axle load (the weight of each pair of wheels) and would put a lot more stress on the rails, requiring higher quality track and costlier maintenance. __________________ Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks that theirs is the only one that doesn't stink. My Melbourne Photos My photos at Panoramio

January 13th, 2007, 03:33 PM	#7
*Momo1435* S/mileage Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Not in Tokyo Posts: 5,878	High speed freight won't be used for bulk goods, it will be used for lighter goods with a high value. The prices will be high, but the speed will compensate that because the products are earlier on their destination. The weight of the trains won't be the biggest problem, maintanence of the tracks is a bigger problem. It's best to do that at night in order not to disrupt the passenger services (Exept in France, but they are crazy), freight services often run at night, so there won't be any time left to check and repair the tracks in order to prevent disasters. __________________ ｷﾀ━━━━━━━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ)━━━━━━━━━!!! !! Japanese Schoolgirls !!

January 13th, 2007, 07:01 PM	#9
*Momo1435* S/mileage Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Not in Tokyo Posts: 5,878	High Speed Rail Cargo will serve major air cargo hubs with the rest of the hinterland. Speed is everything nowadays in cargo, the same goes for low costs. On the one hand you have the big mega containerships that are slow but have low prices. In order to compete with the low prices you have to go fast, air cargo is expensive so you have to compensate with speed. The difference in speed between High Speed Rail and a truck could be a deciding factor in chosing for air cargo instead of going for the sea. Having said that, I must note that High Speed Rail Cargo can only be feasible if enough customers want to pay. __________________ ｷﾀ━━━━━━━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ)━━━━━━━━━!!! !! Japanese Schoolgirls !!

January 14th, 2007, 11:37 AM	#10
*invincible* Lurker Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,731	However, it's worth mentioning that running freight at normal speeds over rail is usually the most economical method anyway, and apart from loading a cargo ship, no other method can carry as much freight. The plan in Australia is now to make sure the interstate rail network can support double-stacked container wagons. __________________ Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and everyone thinks that theirs is the only one that doesn't stink. My Melbourne Photos My photos at Panoramio

January 5th, 2007, 12:03 PM	#3
Jean Luc BANNED Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 492	AFAIK the first stage of the U.K.'s Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL1) from the Channel Tunnel to the outskirts of London was intended for use by freight trains, however I don't know if that's actually eventuated. Maybe the grades are too steep. The French postal service (La Poste) uses a small fleet of yellow-coloured dedicated TGV trains to deliver mail to various parts of France.

January 6th, 2007, 11:40 AM	#5
Jean Luc BANNED Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 492	Merci!

January 13th, 2007, 03:21 PM	#6
elfabyanos Dracuna Macoides Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brighton Posts: 1,857	It's not just a problem of wear on the rails - the axles would be put under too much stress too. Passanger trains are able to keep weight down because the mjority of wha is needed is space for people to sit - space doesn't weigh anything. To make a freight train profitable a lot of weight is piled on a the wagons. Freight train wagons can be three times as heavy as a passenger car - but even normal train's cars are too heavy for hsr, and they only weigh a small percentage more. Remember the forces that the metals are put under increase at the square of the weight and a square of the speed. with conventional rail hs freight would be unlikely - however all stress problems are overcome with maglev so maybe high spdd freight maglev?

January 13th, 2007, 06:35 PM	#8
elfabyanos Dracuna Macoides Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brighton Posts: 1,857	But the mojority of high-value low weight goods are shipped from overseas and their entire journey will be days - saving a few hours on arrival won't make any logistical difference to the shipping companies - and besides, if you filled up a normal train car with boxes of tv's it would still be at least ten tonnes more than having people in it.

January 30th, 2007, 09:17 AM	#11
Yardmaster Ballarat Born. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,750	Heavy trains running at high speeds can get into trouble if they need to stop in a hurry ... this one hit a truck at a level-crossing. __________________ *"The government's job is not to lay rails, shift earth and pour concrete." - Tony Abbott, maiden speech*

January 30th, 2007, 11:07 AM	#12
elfabyanos Dracuna Macoides Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brighton Posts: 1,857	Bloody Hell!!! I'm assuming the freight train came out of nowhere....

January 30th, 2007, 02:21 PM	#14
elfabyanos Dracuna Macoides Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Brighton Posts: 1,857	You can see where the truck hit the back of the loco, or if it didn't it must have been the first trailer. There's got to be a kilotonne of wreckage there. It's a savage reminder of why road should not argue with rail.

January 30th, 2007, 02:33 PM	#15
Yardmaster Ballarat Born. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,750	The train had right-of-way. __________________ *"The government's job is not to lay rails, shift earth and pour concrete." - Tony Abbott, maiden speech*

January 31st, 2007, 04:49 PM	#18
UD2 A very cool person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,166	it's usually hard to not see trains... they're big... __________________ "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower

February 1st, 2007, 07:13 PM	#19
Yardmaster Ballarat Born. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,750	I was just trying to pint out that running thousands of tons of freight atr very high speeds can have catastrophic consequences if something goes wrong. I'm not excusing this accident in any way ... the truck driver should have seen the train and given way to it, the crossing should have been clearly sign-posted, etc. ... but this accident happened last year, and while it was notable, it certainly wasn't the only one. As I recall only the truck-driver was killed, but this was the main east-west freight line across southern Australia. an economic catastrophe. Personally, I crossed railway lines without boom-gates at least six times in the last couple of days ... it makes me nervous. __________________ *"The government's job is not to lay rails, shift earth and pour concrete." - Tony Abbott, maiden speech* Last edited by Yardmaster; March 24th, 2008 at 07:04 PM.

March 16th, 2008, 10:13 PM	#20
rheintram ✡ Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,173	In most countries in central Europe trains are only allowed to have a maximum length of 700m including locomotives. Denmark is an exception where trains can be 800m long. Additionally in Europe most major railways are electrified. This means trains can only have a certain height. In America most freight railways use Diesel engines and they are built for bigger heights. Hence there are many waggons that carry two containers above each other. Plus trains can be way longer: over a kilometer and longer. Hence the tonnage in America and Europe cannot be compared. Trains like the TGV postal are really interesting, however they only work with a certain type of goods and cannot carry containers. But there is an alternative: Conventional push-pull trains with highspeed locomotives, such as TAURUS 1216/ES U64 U4 (357km/h max speed) which works in four different electric systems. Double traction with this type of locomotive and freight cars which are enabled for speeds of 200 km/h and more would be an interesting addition to the high speed freight market.

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