Toronto Chinatown - Not so Chinatown?

[zachus22]

Hey guys

I was just in Chinatown today for the first time since about the summer, and just looking for something to eat before the Raptor game, I couldn't help but to notice the high concentration of Vietnamese shops and restaurants.

Is this a new trend, or was I just naive the last time I went?

By the way, I went to a Pho Shop, and I can't say enough about that stuff.

[Epi]

Downtown Chinatown hasn't really been a happening place since the early 90s... Chinatown North, with the middle marked by Market Village/Pacific Mall is where it's at. Or at least that's where all the Chinese people who have money to spend are.

[phunky]

i hate pho so much. yuck!
i think it tastes like dish water!

[Metroland]

Although many of the shops have become Vietnamese stores, most of the owners of the stores are run by people of mixed Chinese/Vietnamese background, who are fluent in both languages.

[zachus22]

Originally Posted by Metroland

Although many of the shops have become Vietnamese stores, most of the owners of the stores are run by people of mixed Chinese/Vietnamese background, who are fluent in both languages.

Yeah definitely...The Hoa is what they've been dubbed as...My friend is actually the son of two Hoa parents and he speaks English, Vietnamese, and Mandarin to a T.

The Chinatown at Pacific Mall is fantastic...Doesn't get much more asian than that

[Jaye101]

Meh, I still think nothing will compare to Downtown Chinatown. Although they may live in Scarborough and Markham, they still venture down--I think?

[rt_0891]

Originally Posted by Jaye101

Meh, I still think nothing will compare to Downtown Chinatown. Although they may live in Scarborough and Markham, they still venture down--I think?

Except for the odd UT student, Chinatown is a no-go zone for those who live in the hinterlands of Asiancourt, Markham and Richmond Hill.

Nowadays, dt's Chinatown is really not much more than a tourist attraction for foreigners. It's no longer a full-service neighbourhood for the local diaspora.

[Skybean]

One of the reasons, I'm sure, is due to the lack of car parking and the cost associated with parking a vehicle. With public transit, the commute from the suburbs is a lengthy and time consuming process.

Today, the HWY 7 stretch (Richmond Hill) is much closer and has a much wider selection of new restaurants.

[salvius]

The relationship between DT Chinatown and Pacific Mall is really no different from any other urban/suburban relationship--of course suburbanites don't go to Chinatown, it's too far for them. It's the same reason that suburbanites don't go to Kensigton or another similar nabe, but do all their shopping at a faceless big box grocery store.

Pacific is a mall--an Asian mall, but a mall nevertheless. It may be more 'full-service' but DT Chinatown will always win out for me simply because it's downtown and is therefore completely integrated into the urban fabric of Toronto, whereas Pacific Mall may as well be on the moon.

As for the original question--yes, Chinatown has been moving towards a pan-Asian town for a while now; it's not a new phenomenon.

Pho, for the record, is gross.

[KGB]

Pho, for the record, is gross.

Yea...I don't see why it's so popular. I used to work with a guy who loved it, and went to the place across the street for it at luch all the time. I always teased him that he was going for those "weeds and hot water"...cause that's what I thought it tasted like (and I think that's what it actually is). Or maybe I just haven't tasted a good version of it?


At any rate...yes, downtown chinatown is pan-asian....has been for a while. Like any immigrant-driven neighbourhood in the downtown area, these places change and evolve over the decades. Look at Little Italy...aren't many Italians there any more, but they are still very vibrant neighbourhoods, and that's the important part.





KGB

[Roch5220]

I like Pho. Good for a cold rainy day. Though, overall, vietnamese food to me is like British food, nothing fancy or gourmet, just staple food. Have you ever noticed in London that the best upscale restaurants (other than maybe high tea at the Ritz) is French Food, or something none british. Samething goes for me for Viet food.

[Epi]

Originally Posted by Jaye101

Meh, I still think nothing will compare to Downtown Chinatown. Although they may live in Scarborough and Markham, they still venture down--I think?

Suburban or any other Chinese don't really go to Chinatown much. The only Chinese people who really use it on a regular basis are the odd UofT student, people who work in the immediate area, and the few people that live there.

The fact is the food and grocery shopping in old Chinatown simply do not compare to the food and shopping elsewhere. A quick look at the old and dank stores with not much to sell will tell you that much. Old Chinatown is also quite old and dirty, and any visit of Asia will tell you that Chinese, and especially Hong Kongers and Taiwanese like new places.

Downtown Chinatown was also originally created decades ago by immigrants who really have little connection to the ones that came here from the 1980s onward. Those immigrants were generally a lot poorer and less educated. The large surge of immigrants who come from Hong Kong and Taiwan are generally highly educated and solidly middle class. Therefore there is little reason for those people to actually visit Chinatown because culturally it doesn't even compare with the more up to date areas in Markham/Richmond Hill.

[KGB]

A quick look at the old and dank stores with not much to sell will tell you that much. Old Chinatown is also quite old and dirty

Well, that's a very "suburban" way of looking at it. It's that "old fashioned" chinatown feel that people like. I'd also say, despite any back-and-forth arguements about "old and dirty" vs "suburban sterility", there's one thing that is undisputable....old chinatown gives much better public realm....why do you the place is PACKED all the time if it is as horrible as you seem to imagine...somebody must like it.

It's the same old arguement...urban vs suburban...it can be "chinatowns" or anything else...same arguement.

Truth is, there is a market for both.





KGB

[Epi]

Originally Posted by KGB

Well, that's a very "suburban" way of looking at it. It's that "old fashioned" chinatown feel that people like. I'd also say, despite any back-and-forth arguements about "old and dirty" vs "suburban sterility", there's one thing that is undisputable....old chinatown gives much better public realm....why do you the place is PACKED all the time if it is as horrible as you seem to imagine...somebody must like it.

It's the same old arguement...urban vs suburban...it can be "chinatowns" or anything else...same arguement.

Truth is, there is a market for both.





KGB

You're misrepresenting my post. I said it's old and dirty, that's why Chinese people don't want to go there. Chinese people, especially those from HK or Taiwan like new and clean. The idea that produce is strewn across the street, with huge garbage piles and so on may be what the North American conception of 'what Chinese people like to live in' is, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything like that in Hong Kong (where 1/2 of all Toronto Chinese come from).

The thread is about whether Chinatown has become really a non-Chinese shell of itself. It absolutely does not matter if non-Chinese like yourself like it or not, because the more non-Chinese in Chinatown and the less actual Chinese in Chinatown, the less it actually becomes Chinatown and the more it becomes something else altogether.

[babel]

My neighbourhood is Chinatown East ( Broadview and Gerrard ), which is also evolving, with Vietnamese restaurants, a French bistro and a Spring Rolls all opening in the past few years. Business there has been declining, for the traditional Chinese shoppers, for some time though. Also, the residential part of Gerrard just east of Broadview ( especially on the north side ) has become very run down over the past ten years and I think this must be some sort of a deliberate strategy by landlords who want to develop there eventually. But Chinatown East still has good fruit and vegetable markets, Chinese grocery stores ... and Bill's Lobster for wet fish!

[lopt]

I used to live in Downtown Toronto right next to Chinatown from 1990-1997. I am proud to be in one of the Chinese families to be financially able to leave that place. Pacific mall is much better than the trash at Chinatown anyways.

[KGB]

You're misrepresenting my post. I said it's old and dirty, that's why Chinese people don't want to go there. Chinese people, especially those from HK or Taiwan like new and clean.

Yea...but there's nothing particularilly "chinese" about that idea...that's how many people think regardless of background...remember, suburban Toronto was not invented by the chinese, but people of every background.

The thread is about whether Chinatown has become really a non-Chinese shell of itself.

I think that is a bit premature....however the place has evolved over the years, it is still unmistakingly "Chinatown". 75 years ago, the area was unmistakingly jewish...75 years from now, who knows what it will be. I don't really care, as long as it remains a vibrant, interesting people place.





KGB

[babel]

When my "in-laws" visited from Hong Kong a few years ago they found Chinatown East to be charming - it reminded them of what HK was like years ago.

[KGB]

I think people take too much of a conservative view on all this "grubby" stuff. But there's obviously something a lot more complex about it.

A good example is next door Kensington...on paper, the place is run-down, dilapitaded, messy, smelly, grungy...whatever. Yet it still manages to argueably be the coolest nabe on the continent. Is this in spite of it's grungy appearance...or is it a key ingredient? It's definetely the latter.

So there's obviously something about the equasion that the suburbanite minded people are just not getting.

I love chinatown for the very reason it is what it is....and dislike suburban versions for the same reason.

I also love the non-Spadina/Dundas parts of Chinatown too....it's a fairly big place, with very interesting and equally tacky/grungy side streets. Perhaps I will dig out some pics I took and post them?





KGB

[rt_0891]

Originally Posted by Epi

You're misrepresenting my post. I said it's old and dirty, that's why Chinese people don't want to go there. Chinese people, especially those from HK or Taiwan like new and clean. The idea that produce is strewn across the street, with huge garbage piles and so on may be what the North American conception of 'what Chinese people like to live in' is, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything like that in Hong Kong (where 1/2 of all Toronto Chinese come from).

The thread is about whether Chinatown has become really a non-Chinese shell of itself. It absolutely does not matter if non-Chinese like yourself like it or not, because the more non-Chinese in Chinatown and the less actual Chinese in Chinatown, the less it actually becomes Chinatown and the more it becomes something else altogether.

Agreed. The Spadina/Dundas area now literally has a museum quality to it. IMO, there's no point keeping the Chinatown label if it does not serve the Chinese community at large.