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Old July 12th, 2010, 03:31 AM   #261
historyworks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
The question was about total Volgograd tram passanger volume (compared with passanger volume of Metrotram) and about tram passanger volume in the other Russian cities. So, I found statistic only at this site (at other sites I found only general statistic for public ground transport):

http://www.mojgorod.ru/stat/city/tab8160007.html
Thank you AlekseyVT, this is very helpful.

I was only questioning Moscow because I have seen wildly different figures for Moscow in the past. But your figure makes more sense because I understand Moscow trams are mainly a suburban system rather than feeding to city centre?

And it looks like St Petersburg is still the biggest system in spite of cutbacks there - but Moscow has more route km. Am I correct?

Edit:
Then on the other hand we have this information from Moscow city:

http://www.mos.ru/wps/portal/!ut/p/c...umentId=102289

Is it possible for patronage to fall so much in two years?
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Last edited by historyworks; July 12th, 2010 at 01:15 PM. Reason: New information
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Old July 12th, 2010, 05:17 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
And it looks like St Petersburg is still the biggest system in spite of cutbacks there - but Moscow has more route km. Am I correct?
Tramlines in St.-Peterburg:
The city of Saint Petersburg, Russia once boasted the largest tramway network in the world, consisting of about 340 kilometres of unduplicated track in the late 1980s. Since 1995, the tramway network has seen a sharp decline in size due to the removal of major portions of track, particularly in the city centre; so Saint Petersburg lost its record to Melbourne, Australia. While it still had 285 km in 2001, the track extent in early 2007 was just over 220 km. The length in the single-way terms (including depot) is 500 km.

Tramlines in Moscow:
In Moscow, length of tram lines (by the axis of streets) is 181.1 km, the length in the single-way terms (including depot) is 415.1 km.

Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
Thank you AlekseyVT, this is very helpful.

I was only questioning Moscow because I have seen wildly different figures for Moscow in the past. But your figure makes more sense because I understand Moscow trams are mainly a suburban system rather than feeding to city centre?

Is it possible for patronage to fall so much in two years?
Tramway is only one kind of public ground transport in Moscow. There are others kinds of public transport like buses, trolleybuses, "marshrutka" (private taxi buses) and somewhere - monorail road. Majority of Muscovites use ground transport only for the trip from Metro station to the home/place of work. If the home/place of work are located near Metro station, they can walk this distance or use bus/trolleybus instead of tram.

In addition, during last two decades, due to building and reconstruction of houses, Moscow goverment closes the tram routes (especially in the Central Administrative District) and dismantle tram lines. Accordingly, the reduction of tram lines leads to a decrease in passengers.

Do you have other questions?
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Old July 12th, 2010, 06:09 PM   #263
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Station "Pushkinskaya" (1956):

"Pushkinskaya" is deep-level tri-vaulted station of pylon type (depth - 57 meters). Station was named for nearby Vitebsk Rail Terminal, which was formerly known as Tsarskoe Selo Rail Terminal. This Rail Terminal connected St.-Peterburg with town Pushkin, which was formerly known as Tsarskoe Selo (Royal Village) during 1710-1918 and Detskoe Selo (Children's Village) during 1918-1937. In 1937 this town was named for Alexander Pushkin (1799-1837), greatest Russian poet, who had studied in the Imperial Lyceum there since 1811 till 1817.

Decoration of station is devoted to Alexander Pushkin, greatest Russian writer in the history of Russian literature, the reformer of Russian language. His contribution in Russian literature can be compared with contribution of Dante Alighieri into Italian literature or William Shakespeare into literature of Britain.

This station become the last work in Metro for the outstanding architect Leonid Polyakov (1906-1965), the architect of the Moscow Metro stations "Kurskaya" (1938), "Teatralnaya" (1938), "Oktyabrskaya" (1950) and "Arbatskaya" (1953). He was also author of Hotel Leningradskaya - one of the Seven Sisters (Stalin skyscrapers) in Moscow. On 4 December 1955, as result of the Nikita Khrushchov's policy of the "struggle against architectural excesses", Polyakov was deprived of the State Prize (which was awarded to him for the Hotel Leningradskaya) and dismissed from his post of the head of the architecture workshop of the Institute "Mosproject" due to "committed excesses, waste of public funds during the design and for the construction and improper management of construction organizations."


Photos taken by Gelio:
http://gelio-nsk.livejournal.com/93245.htm











Monument to Alexander Pushkin near the panel, which depicts Tsarskoe Selo:






Transfer to the station "Zvenigorodskaya" (2008):








Portrait of Alexander Pushkin:






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Old July 12th, 2010, 08:45 PM   #264
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P.S. I forgot to add, that in 2009 due to financial crisis so-called "business activity" of potential passangers in Russia was greatly decreased, and passanger volume of any kind of transport (including Metro) was decreased on few percents.

What about tram, IMHO - it's a dying kind of transport. Let's look at an ordinary situation - as a result of illegal parking the car will disturb the movement of trams. Consequently, until the coming car owner, the tram movement at this line will be paralyzed.

Or let's take more serious situation - road incident at the tram ways. In this case it will be necessary to wait road inspectors, who should made photos of broken cars and to identify the perpetrator of the incident and the amount of the fine. While investigation continues, the broken cars can not be evacuated from the tram line. This mean that passangers of trams must wait few minutes. The buses and trolleybuses able to easily overcome all these obstacles. So, development of the ordinary tram systems have no any sense.

Elementary logic.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 09:25 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Elementary logic.
Pathetic metrophile logic.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 09:28 PM   #266
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Station "Vladimirskaya" (1955):

"Vladimirskaya" is deep-level tri-vaulted station of pylon type (depth - 55 meters). Station was named for nearby Vladimirskaya Square and Vladimirskiy Avenue (square and avenue were named for Vladimirskaya Church, dedicated to Our Lady of Vladimir).

Initially this station was not planned to be at first line, the decision about its construction was taken only in 1951. Therefore its decoration is very laconic.


Photos taken by Gelio:
http://gelio-nsk.livejournal.com/93474.html

The station was built with a short central hall:


























Mosaic picture "Abundance":






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Old July 12th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarine View Post
Pathetic metrophile logic.
As I said before, buses and trolleybuses must replace the tram, not Metro. And please, speak more convincingly.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 11:33 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
As I said before, buses and trolleybuses must replace the tram, not Metro.
Why? Trams have more capacity, and higher speed.

What about road accidents - its problem of car drivers, not trams.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aokromes View Post
On the past Moscow's public transport stats where at http://mos.ru/cgi-bin/pbl_web?vid=2&...ews_unom=42215 but no anymore. (and i don't know Russian)
http://mos.ru/?documentId=131991
229,7 mln pass. in 2009.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:40 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
...Let's look at an ordinary situation - as a result of illegal parking the car will disturb the movement of trams. Consequently, until the coming car owner, the tram movement at this line will be paralyzed.

Or let's take more serious situation - road incident at the tram ways...The buses and trolleybuses able to easily overcome all these obstacles. So, development of the ordinary tram systems have no any sense.

Elementary logic.
Cut the hand because finger is broken. Elementary logic. Very big different between busses and trams is that you always know why there is no trams, when bus with interval 4min you wate 20 min, and then come one crashloaded, and after that 4 late busses half-empty. Car accidents are sometimes, when busses and cars are every day in traffic jam. I remember in Yekaterinburg that in rush hours only trams are faster then walking in lot of streets. By statistics you give us (thanks for lot of pictures and informations), SPB tramway in 2005 have same number of passengers like metro, which mean that this system is (was) very important in this city, which neglected infrastructure cannot destroy, only closing lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarine View Post
Very strange numbers.
71.6 mln in Samara looks like a joke. This city has very good tram system.
I have never been, but I found on internet datas which show that Samara trams are fast and frequent. They are faster then some subways with short stations, like Paris.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:43 AM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarine View Post
Why? Trams have more capacity, and higher speed.
OK, this is technical characteristic of Tatra T3SU trams (common in Russia):
Capacity - 23 seats, 87 standing
Maximal speed - 65 km/h

Disadvantages of the Tatra T3 trams:
- Small sizes of trams, passenger capacity is not higher than in buses.
- Floor in salon is located high.
- There is noisy in salon due to work of motor-generator, which are used to convert 600 V to 24 V for low-voltage circuits.
- Cabine of driver is very close and in the some training carriages (where it lasts for an additional seat for student) it obscures half of the front door.
- Narrow windows. Standing passangers are forced to bend for look out the window.

http://tram.ruz.net/tramcars/t3/
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Татра-Т3

Bus LIAZ-5293
Capacity - 21 seats, 79 standing
Maximal speed - 80 km/h
http://bus.ruz.net/cars/liaz-5293/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramarine View Post
What about road accidents - its problem of car drivers, not trams.
I think if you will seat in such tram during 30 minutes in the hard summer due to road incident, that it will be not only problem of car drivers or trams, but your personal problem. And you must pay one more time when you will change tram on bus.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #272
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The worst thing that can happen with the bus on the route:
- It will be in road traffic and will run with a speed of other cars on the road.

The worst thing that can happen with the tram on the route:
- Full stop of movement, traffic for the all trams at the line.

The best thing that can happen with the bus on the route:
- It will run with maximal speed (80 km/h.)

The best thing that can happen with the tram on the route:
- It will run with maximal speed (65 km/h.)

As mathematicians say, it's always need to take two extremes, and analyze the results for each situations.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:09 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
OK, this is technical characteristic of Tatra T3SU trams (common in Russia):
Capacity - 23 seats, 87 standing
Maximal speed - 65 km/h

Disadvantages of the Tatra T3 trams:
blah-blah-blah

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Bus LIAZ-5293
Capacity - 21 seats, 79 standing
Maximal speed - 80 km/h
lol, you compared 40-years old tram with new bus.

In fact, bus never rides in city with maximal speed.
And many russian cities uses 2-car tram trains.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
I think if you will seat in such tram during 30 minutes in the hard summer due to road incident, that it will be not only problem of car drivers or trams, but your personal problem. And you must pay one more time when you will change tram on bus.
In fact, its not only my problem. (And bus stuck in traffic jam... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
The worst thing that can happen with the tram on the route:
- Full stop of movement, traffic for the all trams at the line.
On separated tram lines, and normal intersection with road traffic that doesn't happen.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:17 PM   #274
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Old July 13th, 2010, 02:10 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Do you have other questions?
Not at present, thank you AlekseyVT for your helpful information - and I am enjoying your fantastic photographic information.

I see you are having a debate of trams vs buses. All I can say is we are having similar discussions in "the west" and trams are winning the argument. It is fundamental that trams have separation from motor traffic so that such incidents do not occur.

My experience of the Prague tram system, for example, is that it is one of the best public transport systems in the world - it is a good one to look at to see how things are done best. (Second highest patronage in world after St Petersburg) Buses could not do this job, they are better as feeders and cross-regional. (At the same time I am not suggesting that a tram system should do the job of a metro, each has its place.)

Enjoy your discussions
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Old July 13th, 2010, 08:24 PM   #276
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Station "Ploshchad Vosstaniya" (1955):

"Ploshchad Vosstaniya" ("Uprising Square") is deep-level tri-vaulted station of pylon type (depth - 58 meters). Station was named for nearby square. Prior to the February Revolution, this square was known as Znamenskaya, after the church of the Sign, which was built there in 1794-1804 to a Neoclassical design by Fyodor Demertsov. In 1917 square was a scene of many revolutionary demonstrations and protests. Next year, after the Bolsheviks seized the city, they had the square renamed into the Uprising Square to commemorate these events. The church of the Sign was torn down in 1940 to make room for the surface vestibule of the "Ploshchad Vosstaniya" metro station.

The decoration of station is devoted to the October Uprising 1917.


Photos taken by Gelio:
http://gelio-nsk.livejournal.com/93781.html













Blank shot from the "Aurora" cruiser (signal to the start of the assault on the Winter Palace):


Lenin's speech in Tauride Palace (there is only one preserved image of Joseph Stalin among all Russian Metro stations):


Vladimir Lenin near the hovel on the bank of Razilv Lake (he hiding here during the prosecution from Provisional Government):




Transfer to the "Mayakovskaya" station (1967):












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Old July 13th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #277
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I posted photos of the eight stations of St.-Petersburg Metro's first line. These 8 stations were designed and opened almost in same period that 12 stations of the famous Moscow Metro Ring Line (1945-1956). Seven of these eight stations are deep-level, but only one shallow station "Avtovo" is consider as most beautiful in the St.-Peterburg Metro system. After the opening of St.-Peterburg Metro in 1955, was started the era of Krushchev's primitivism in the Soviet arcitecture. Therefore, these 8 stations of first stage are consider as most beautiful in the St.-Peterburg Metro system.

THE END.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 05:32 AM   #278
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It's planned to open "Dubravnaya" in 2013, but construction has not begun yet.

Mayor of Kazan visited the metro station "Kozya Sloboda" ("Zarechnaya"):



















5.07.2010, Kazan City Mayor's Website
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Old July 14th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #279
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^progress looks good.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 09:18 PM   #280
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Plans of the Metro opening in other Russian cities:

Part Two - Krasnoyarsk Metro:

Krasnoyarsk is a city and the administrative center of Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia, situated on both sides of the Yenisey River. It is the third largest city in Siberia (after Novosibirsk and Omsk), with population of 948,500. Krasnoyarsk is an important junction of the Trans-Siberian Railway. It was founded in 1628 and is now the industrial and cultural centre of the region. The main industry includes machine construction, chemical industry, shipyards and especially aluminium production. There are 2 universities, 15 colleges for higher education, 5 theatres, 4 concert halls and 6 museums.

The idea of the Metro construction in Krasnoyarsk was appeared in 1960s. In 1970s Metro lines were included in the scheme of the perspective development of the city. In 1983 Politbureau of the Central Comittee of Communist Party of Soviet Union took an unprecedented decision to build a metro in the two Soviet cities whose population does not exceed 1 million people - Krasnoyarsk and Riga. According to unconfirmed version, this decision was took due to patronage of Konstantin Chernenko (1911-1985), who was sixth General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union during 1984-1985 (he was born in Krasnoyarsk Krai). In 1984 begun projecting of Metro lines in Krasnoyarsk, but in 1989 all these works were terminated (like projecting works for other Soviet cities, where Metro was planned, but not built).

The projecting works were resumed in 1993. In 1994 project of first stage passed the state examination and been approved for execution. Construction of system began on October 17, 1995. However, after three years of work and 500 meters of tunneling, a lack of funds slowed construction considerably. By 2004, new tunneling equipment had been purchased, but another funding cut stopped progress again.

By 2005, the Federal Government stepped in to help the project along. 144 million Roubles were allocated by Moscow which would help advance the tunnels another 250 meters. 2006 brought another 230 million Roubles to finish the remaining 400 meters between the first two stations and start 100 meters towards the third station. In 2007 were allocated 630 million Roubles, in 2008 - 801 million.

The first section from "Vokzalnaya" to "Vysotnaya", once scheduled to open in 2002 (5 km, 3 stations) may be ready in 2012 (or later), the two central stations with one transfer station to a future north-south line will open next. A further 8 stations are planned for an northeastern extension (to Korkino settlement) and one more station to the northwest, "Bugach".

Plans of the construction of Krasnoyarsk Metro for near future:


The second line is supposed to connect the city centre with residential areas on the south side of the river. To the north it is planned to split into two branch, the right one going into the historic centre and the left one north to Solontsy settlement.

The third line won't cross the other two lines in the city centre, but the first line at "Oktyabrskaya" and the second line in the southeast on the southern shore.
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