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Old March 29th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #2441
Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eerik View Post
Perhaps a new arena could be located at the same site, but buried deep into the ground, so that the roof would be at street level. Build on top, or create a park with new structures ringing the site.
I really don't think people understand how much of a negative impact it would be if Baltimore went two years without an arena. First of all, building on the same sight is not possible. It's too small. Personally, I think they should put a new arena in the Middle Branch area. It only makes sense. That area is a hot commodity right now. You have the Waterview Overlook project going on and then you have the Patrick Turner development going on.

Either Middle Branch or Canton would be suitable. Having it in Canton would compliment the Canton Crossing and Brewer's Hill developments a great deal.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #2442
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Canton would be nice and Middle Branch would be nice, but why not Harbor Point? Harbor Point has yet to even begin really, and there is an abundance of open space there as well. Some space could be sacrfice by the park for a state of the art arena. Its also within walking distance to Harbor East(which would be huge) as well as the rest of the harbor. Canton is a bit far away from most of the downtown attractions.

if it were up to me, I would move the Columbus Center to harbor Point and do something else with the pier V hotel and build an arena on the water. Maybe im just crazy though
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Old March 29th, 2007, 08:10 PM   #2443
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Originally Posted by Baltimoreborn1 View Post
Canton would be nice and Middle Branch would be nice, but why not Harbor Point? Harbor Point has yet to even begin really, and there is an abundance of open space there as well. Some space could be sacrfice by the park for a state of the art arena. Its also within walking distance to Harbor East(which would be huge) as well as the rest of the harbor. Canton is a bit far away from most of the downtown attractions.

if it were up to me, I would move the Columbus Center to harbor Point and do something else with the pier V hotel and build an arena on the water. Maybe im just crazy though
having the new arena in the CBD would be amazing. Wouldn't it have been cool if they knocked down 400 east pratt street and combined it with the development site for 300 east pratt street? you would close commerce street and would have a new arena right on pratt street and at the inner harbor. a new tower could still "grow" from the arena.

you might have to shift lombard to the north to gain enough depth, but that could work with a BCC redevelopment?

too bad that's probably crazy!
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Old March 29th, 2007, 08:40 PM   #2444
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Canton would be nice and Middle Branch would be nice, but why not Harbor Point? Harbor Point has yet to even begin really, and there is an abundance of open space there as well. Some space could be sacrfice by the park for a state of the art arena. Its also within walking distance to Harbor East(which would be huge) as well as the rest of the harbor. Canton is a bit far away from most of the downtown attractions.

if it were up to me, I would move the Columbus Center to harbor Point and do something else with the pier V hotel and build an arena on the water. Maybe im just crazy though
The Harbor Point spot sounds nice, but it sounds like they're trying to build as less as possible there because of the chemical reasons. The Canton spot would actually be perfect, but if I things my way, I would definitely choose the CDB over them all. But the reality is where would you put it? There's no space anywhere.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 08:47 PM   #2445
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Originally Posted by Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore View Post
The Harbor Point spot sounds nice, but it sounds like they're trying to build as less as possible there because of the chemical reasons. The Canton spot would actually be perfect, but if I things my way, I would definitely choose the CDB over them all. But the reality is where would you put it? There's no space anywhere.
The Middle Branch will happen before Canton because of transportation related concerns. There will come a time when the Middle Branch, Carroll Camden, Harbor East, and Harbor Point will be considered a part of the CBD so technically, it would remain in the CBD. For example, Legg Mason will force people to consider Harbor East a part of the CBD ("eastern edge") and prominent development along the Middle Branch (Gateway South and not just Westport) will do the same. IMO
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:26 PM   #2446
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Arena Needs to go Downtown

I am not sure if you have ever been to an area in the middle of nowhere, a la the Wachovia Center in Philly, Brendan Byrne arena at the meadowlands in Jersey or Nassau coliseum on Long Island, but those venues are just horrible except inside the actual areana. Switch gears now to MSG in Manhattan. MCI in DC. The Fleet Center in Boston. You just can’t compare the two with the entire experience of going to an event. I think the arena needs to go downtown in the CBD. And we do have enough land to put the arena there now that the superblock has been handed off from Weinberg to BDC. Next step is to quell the business owners and get them moved over and then get the developer to do a mixed use development a la NJ Nets moving to Brooklyn.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:35 PM   #2447
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I am not sure if you have ever been to an area in the middle of nowhere, a la the Wachovia Center in Philly, Brendan Byrne arena at the meadowlands in Jersey or Nassau coliseum on Long Island, but those venues are just horrible except inside the actual areana. Switch gears now to MSG in Manhattan. MCI in DC. The Fleet Center in Boston. You just can’t compare the two with the entire experience of going to an event. I think the arena needs to go downtown in the CBD. And we do have enough land to put the arena there now that the superblock has been handed off from Weinberg to BDC. Next step is to quell the business owners and get them moved over and then get the developer to do a mixed use development a la NJ Nets moving to Brooklyn.
As much as that may make sense, don't count on that happening. It will move from its current location if for no other reason, the powers-that-be do not want to see arena events shut down for two or three years.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:42 PM   #2448
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Originally Posted by Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore View Post
I really don't think people understand how much of a negative impact it would be if Baltimore went two years without an arena. First of all, building on the same site is not possible. It's too small. ... Either Middle Branch or Canton would be suitable. Having it in Canton would compliment the Canton Crossing and Brewer's Hill developments a great deal.
When you have a minute, write more about the negative impact of Baltimore not having an arena for three years. Not seeing it, other than that it would be tough on the Blast. Closest venue that could accommodate them is Comcast Arena at UM. Playing there in the interim, though, could help them build their DC audience. Would we really miss not having Blue Man Group or Christina Aguilera or Disney on Ice or the circus in town for a while?

Here's an excerpt from a longer article that helps make the argument for keeping the arena at Baltimore and Howard Streets

[snip]
Steve Weathers, president and CEO of the Regional Growth Partnership in Toledo, Ohio, says that successful downtown arenas all share certain traits. Most tend to be near bus and subway stations, which reduces the hassle of stadium parking. It's also ideal if a critical mass of residents and office workers live and work within walking distance. Many will spend money along the way, he says. Another ingredient is keeping the facility active with concerts and other events when the team's away. “You need to draw people to the arena all year round,” he says.
[snip]

Current site would probably be large enough if the arena was built out to the sidewalks of Baltimore, Howard, Hopkins Place and Lombard Streets. The current garage and surface parking eat up a lot of valuable space. Roads in and out of Canton don't seem adequate to the traffic demand. If folks are complaining about the traffic the Icon project would allegedly draw, they'd be apoplectic about an arena. Harbor Point's moving forward with offices and housing. Middle Branch would be cool, but Ray Lewis's development team got the part with the best access and the chance to share parking with Oriole Park and M&T Bank Stadium.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:44 PM   #2449
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Oh and by the way, there is NO WAY the arena goes in the superblock. The entire political landscape would IMPLODE.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #2450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_hunt View Post
When you have a minute, write more about the negative impact of Baltimore not having an arena for three years. Not seeing it, other than that it would be tough on the Blast. Closest venue that could accommodate them is Comcast Arena at UM. Playing there in the interim, though, could help them build their DC audience. Would we really miss not having Blue Man Group or Christina Aguilera or Disney on Ice or the circus in town for a while?

Here's an excerpt from a longer article that helps make the argument for keeping the arena at Baltimore and Howard Streets

[snip]
Steve Weathers, president and CEO of the Regional Growth Partnership in Toledo, Ohio, says that successful downtown arenas all share certain traits. Most tend to be near bus and subway stations, which reduces the hassle of stadium parking. It's also ideal if a critical mass of residents and office workers live and work within walking distance. Many will spend money along the way, he says. Another ingredient is keeping the facility active with concerts and other events when the team's away. “You need to draw people to the arena all year round,” he says.
[snip]

Current site would probably be large enough if the arena was built out to the sidewalks of Baltimore, Howard, Hopkins Place and Lombard Streets. The current garage and surface parking eat up a lot of valuable space. Roads in and out of Canton don't seem adequate to the traffic demand. If folks are complaining about the traffic the Icon project would allegedly draw, they'd be apoplectic about an arena. Harbor Point's moving forward with offices and housing. Middle Branch would be cool, but Ray Lewis's development team got the part with the best access and the chance to share parking with Oriole Park and M&T Bank Stadium.
The arena is one of the top "entertainment" venues on the east coast--in terms of bookings. Political figures would not want to take away that level of "family entertainment" from a city that offers a modest level of entertainment as it is (compared to other east coast cities). Tell me which politician in city government wants to closure of a "family venue" during their watch? It makes sense to keep it where it is. Politics will force it somewhere else. The stadium area makes the most sense. Middle Branch or Carroll Camden.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:54 PM   #2451
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Originally Posted by jeffbaltimore View Post
And we do have enough land to put the arena there now that the superblock has been handed off from Weinberg to BDC.
Former head of city planning Charles Graves was thinking along those lines, too. FWIW, here are a few of the obstacles: 1) what InterestedReader just said; 2) closing Park Ave; 3) triangle bounded by Park, Marion, and Liberty isn't part of the Soooo-per Block and is owned by Health Care for the Homeless; 4) what InterestReader just said, doubled. Took a lot to get the agreement signed yesterday.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 09:59 PM   #2452
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ths site the arena sits on would work. I mean bury baltimore street for two blocks. build all the way to the edge of baltimore and Possibly bury Hopkins Pl.

So it costs a couple bucks more. Whats really the difference beetween 300 and 400 million??
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Old March 29th, 2007, 10:08 PM   #2453
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Tell me which politician in city government wants to closure of a "family venue" during their watch?
Kurt Schmoke, a thoroughly decent man, allowed the City Life Museums and Columbus Center to close permanently during his watch. Those were family venues whose price of admission was far lower than a typical arena event. As for current politicians, probably all of them could "sell" Baltimoreans on a three-year hiatus if city residents were guaranteed a certain level of participation in the demolition and reconstruction and current Arena employees were offered temporary jobs elsewhere.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 10:09 PM   #2454
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ths site the arena sits on would work. I mean bury baltimore street for two blocks. build all the way to the edge of baltimore and Possibly bury Hopkins Pl.

So it costs a couple bucks more. Whats really the difference beetween 300 and 400 million??
Your tax dollars at work funding the "extra" $100M in bonds.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #2455
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Originally Posted by jamie_hunt View Post
Kurt Schmoke, a thoroughly decent man, allowed the City Life Museums and Columbus Center to close permanently during his watch. Those were family venues whose price of admission was far lower than a typical arena event. As for current politicians, probably all of them could "sell" Baltimoreans on a three-year hiatus if city residents were guaranteed a certain level of participation in the demolition and reconstruction and current Arena employees were offered temporary jobs elsewhere.
I hear you but City Life and Columbus Center never delivered ice shows, Ringling Bros, and the Stones. City residents could care less about participation levels when their kids are screaming for the Naruto on Ice.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 10:50 PM   #2456
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City residents could care less about participation levels when their kids are screaming for the Naruto on Ice.
True, but you asked about what politicians would do, and politics has a lot to do with who's cut into the deal, and who's cut out. Naruto on Ice is nice, but it won't put any dough into your campaign coffers. Plus, if there's no arena (for a while), NOI's not advertised. If it's not advertised, kid's don't know about it. Unless they're psychic. I know mine aren't.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 11:05 PM   #2457
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BD,
I heard a rumour that Obrecht bought the old Tulkoff plant. I own almost 3 acres nearby there. It was all part of the Westside redevelopment plan in the '80's. In order to get businesses to relocate from the Westside the city swapped us (and Tulkoff too) property in Canton. Funny thing is though that the westside properties are still pretty much empty lots.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #2458
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True, but you asked about what politicians would do, and politics has a lot to do with who's cut into the deal, and who's cut out. Naruto on Ice is nice, but it won't put any dough into your campaign coffers. Plus, if there's no arena (for a while), NOI's not advertised. If it's not advertised, kid's don't know about it. Unless they're psychic. I know mine aren't.
I understand. Here's my point. Politicians aren't going to support something that will be unpopular to the citizens. They are not going to support shutting down a "family venue", ask the taxpayer to foot the bill for another bond issue, and wait two or three years for the realization of a new arena.

What they will do is keep the old travesty up and running, stress to the citizens the need for a new arena because NOI doesn't want to come back (I told you so approach), use this approach as part of the justification for paying the bond issue for the new facility, and stress the arena in area X (whatever that is) spurs new economic development that supports the payments for the bonds, creates jobs, attracts tourists, etc, etc, etc. This is approach gets them votes more than the former.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 11:42 PM   #2459
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What's so Super about the so called "Super Block"?

It's not even 1 block, it's 3! There is no waterfront there, the buildings are dull, the surrounding area is scary and it's pretty grimey too. Super is not an adjective that I would ever use to describe that area. So what is the genesis of that term to describe the old shopping district of downtown Baltimore?
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Old March 29th, 2007, 11:58 PM   #2460
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What's so Super about the so called "Super Block"?

It's not even 1 block, it's 3! There is no waterfront there, the buildings are dull, the surrounding area is scary and it's pretty grimey too. Super is not an adjective that I would ever use to describe that area. So what is the genesis of that term to describe the old shopping district of downtown Baltimore?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superblock

Main Entry: su·per·block
Pronunciation: -"bläk
Function: noun
: a very large commercial or residential block barred to through traffic, crossed by pedestrian walks and sometimes access roads, and often spotted with grassed malls
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