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Old April 4th, 2007, 12:44 AM   #2581
scottbbfm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jaramillo View Post
Harbor Place

I too have noticed how HP is changing from the way it was when the Rouse Company still managed it. It seems as though the idea now with General Growth is to make it more like a small mall with anchor tenants and with shops that you can find in just about in an upscale suburban mall. Whereas before it was more like a unique "festive marketplace" like it's cousins in Boston and New York with a lot of small locally owned one of a kind shops. Is the new Urban Outfitters going to be going into both levels of that side of the Light Street pavilion? Whatever happened to the Discovery store that used to be on the ground floor level? Is it relocating to another section of the pavilion or is it gone altogether? I agree with the poster that said that while it is nice to be getting more retail downtown, what's the point if the selection is losuy and you still need to end up going to the suburbs for the things that you need.
I assume you are speaking of the Fanueil hall in Boston and South Street Seaport in NY, as the festive marketplace cousins of HP. Not to be rude, but what small locally owned one of a kind shops are you talking about? Is it the Ann Taylor, Coach, Yankee Candle, or Urban Outfitters that over-run Fanueil Hall? There are some local pushcart/kiosks, but that is about it. I agree Quincy Market which is right next door has some local food stops, but that more closely resembles a dressed up Lexington Market. Let's face it, as much as we don't like it, the small local shops can't afford $40-50 a sq market rents that downtown commands

To respond to your coment about poor selection, Urban Outfitters is the only UO in Baltimore. H.E. will soon be getting a place that you can buy "the things you need". You may also buy many of the things you need at the Superfresh which is a great addition to the downtown area. The retail is getting much better here. You should come down and visit sometime soon, checkout the location of the Discovery Channel Store. I live and work downtown and have driven my car twice in the last month and a half....once to the airport and once to the port covington Wal-Mart.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 03:55 AM   #2582
Hugh Jaramillo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbbfm View Post
I assume you are speaking of the Fanueil hall in Boston and South Street Seaport in NY, as the festive marketplace cousins of HP. Not to be rude, but what small locally owned one of a kind shops are you talking about? Is it the Ann Taylor, Coach, Yankee Candle, or Urban Outfitters that over-run Fanueil Hall? There are some local pushcart/kiosks, but that is about it. I agree Quincy Market which is right next door has some local food stops, but that more closely resembles a dressed up Lexington Market. Let's face it, as much as we don't like it, the small local shops can't afford $40-50 a sq market rents that downtown commands

To respond to your coment about poor selection, Urban Outfitters is the only UO in Baltimore. H.E. will soon be getting a place that you can buy "the things you need". You may also buy many of the things you need at the Superfresh which is a great addition to the downtown area. The retail is getting much better here. You should come down and visit sometime soon, checkout the location of the Discovery Channel Store. I live and work downtown and have driven my car twice in the last month and a half....once to the airport and once to the port covington Wal-Mart.
You'er either too young to remember or fairly new to Baltimore, but the small locally owned shops that I was referring to are the ones that where there when HP opened in the early 80's like The Books for Cooks, the Butterfly Store, The Soup Kitchen, the Kite Loft, that sort of thing. I don't think any of the stores or restaurants that are there now are locally owned at all. Now it's completely corporate. And I don't mean to be rude but no self respecting Baltimorian would be caught dead shopping at Horrible Place as my brother still refers to it.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:10 AM   #2583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jaramillo View Post
You'er either too young to remember or fairly new to Baltimore, but the small locally owned shops that I was referring to are the ones that where there when HP opened in the early 80's like The Books for Cooks, the Butterfly Store, The Soup Kitchen, the Kite Loft, that sort of thing. I don't think any of the stores or restaurants that are there now are locally owned at all. Now it's completely corporate. And I don't mean to be rude but no self respecting Baltimorian would be caught dead shopping at Horrible Place as my brother still refers to it.
I think that was the point he was trying to make.. no one would shop there because the majority of the shops were geared towards tourists. I say it all the time, how many stores do you need selling an Orioles tshirt. I think since tourist type memorabilia were the focus of the pavillions, the few normal everyday stores got lost in all that and now the tables are turning which I think will give them a more balanced feel. They were all geared towards tourists and now its changing over towards downtown living. I think knit-picking over individual stores is not looking at the big picture. Discussion should be less centered on specific stores and whether you like them or not because thats individual preference. BIG PICTURE: downtown is shifting towards urban living and away from just a cheesey downtown tourist destination. Or at the very least, something in the middle.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:25 AM   #2584
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BTW... I am SO PISSED about this!

Quote:
Developer says public cash not enough to alter plans
Baltimore Business Journal - March 30, 2007by Daniel J. SernovitzStaff


Developer Dave Holmes said he does not believe the promise of financial assistance from the city will be enough for him to reduce the height of a 95-foot-high parking garage he is planning to build in Fells Point.

Holmes declined to say how much he would need to make the structure smaller, but he said he is willing to work with officials from the Baltimore Development Corp. and is open to any suggestions the BDC has about the project.
Quote:
Developers Dave Holmes and Daniel Winner, of South Broadway Properties LLC, are planning to renovate and redevelop several properties along the 600 block of Broadway, including the north and south sheds of the Broadway Market. In addition, the developers want to demolish several properties in the area of the 1600 block of Fleet Street in order to build a 242-space parking garage and to demolish additional properties off Register Street for a 20-space surface parking lot.
How could this possibly be approved??? A 95 foot high garage in FELLS POINT?!! How high do the land values have to go to warrant an underground garage, or at least some respect for the surrounding historic properties! Even though it is tied to a renovation of the pavilions on Broadway, this is outrageous! Why don't we start demolishing Federal Hill for surface lots!!!

I can't believe the city planning commission voted UNANIMOUSLY for this proposal!!!

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...tml?from_rss=1
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Old April 4th, 2007, 05:31 AM   #2585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Jaramillo View Post
.....The Soup Kitchen, the Kite Loft, that sort of thing. I don't think any of the stores or restaurants that are there now are locally owned at all. Now it's completely corporate. And I don't mean to be rude but no self respecting Baltimorian would be caught dead shopping at Horrible Place as my brother still refers to it.
This is true of retail all over. There has been a progressive loss of local retail over the past couple decades. High rents in places like Harborplace seem to abet the process. It doesn't seem likely that the entire place will go over to chain retailers. The owners just finished spending a lot of money refurbishing the food area on the second floor and so far has mostly (Subway excepted) avoided going to chain food. It appears that the primary change in Light St has been that the City Lights space went over to Urban Outfitters. When Harborplace was built, restaurants downtown were not as numerous as now so having a restaurant there was quite a novelty that it is not now. Phillips doesn't seem to do the business it once did either; they closed their buffet for a couple months this winter.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 05:32 AM   #2586
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Originally Posted by B'moreOrioles View Post
So, i'm wondering could this mean that the Olmstead could possibly become taller. Is this possible?
Or maybe they are scared about the residential market and are hoping to find another use for the site?
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Old April 4th, 2007, 06:16 AM   #2587
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Official seeks ordinance amendment for Inner Harbor developers

BALTIMORE (Map, News) - Baltimore City housing commissioner Paul Graziano is seeking an amendment to the Key Highway Urban Renewal Ordinance, which would enable HarborView to build two 26-story buildings in addition to its plans for a 17-story high-rise known as The Pinnacle.


The move has left a sour taste in the mouths of local residents angered that additional building at the Inner Harbor will further comprise their view.

“The city needs to slow down the building here,” said Paul Robinson, spokesman for the Friends of Federal Hill Park. “All these skyscrapers are resulting in a line of demarcation that creates a disconnect between the surrounding neighborhoods and communities and limits our views of the harbor,” he said.

According to Robinson, the current city ordnance has provisions in it to protect view corridors of the harbor from the west to the east. “[HarborView’s] creative lawyers are interpreting the language to move their plans forward,” Robinson said.

However Frank Wise, vice president of HarborView Properties Development Company, says it is Baltimore City, not his firm, that is seeking the amendment.

“This is something that the Department of Planning wants, the current ordnance allows the housing commissioner to make changes to the master plan as time evolves as part of his interpretive powers,” Wise said.

Wise says his company is already approved to build The Pinnacle and, in their interpretation of the law, the two additional 26-story buildings nearby.

“The reality is that we are building far fewer units than the ordnance allows, and in response to community concerns we altered our plans. This is really about the community’s displeasure with the commissioner’s ‘interpretive powers,’ ” he added.

At present, the amendment is before the City Council’s Urban Affairs and Aging committee, chaired by City Councilwoman Agnes Welch.

“The amendment just came to us and we haven’t even looked at it or scheduled public hearings, but due process will occur,” she said.

Paul Graziano was not available for comment.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 07:06 AM   #2588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House3780 View Post
I think that was the point he was trying to make.. no one would shop there because the majority of the shops were geared towards tourists. I say it all the time, how many stores do you need selling an Orioles tshirt. I think since tourist type memorabilia were the focus of the pavillions, the few normal everyday stores got lost in all that and now the tables are turning which I think will give them a more balanced feel. They were all geared towards tourists and now its changing over towards downtown living. I think knit-picking over individual stores is not looking at the big picture. Discussion should be less centered on specific stores and whether you like them or not because thats individual preference. BIG PICTURE: downtown is shifting towards urban living and away from just a cheesey downtown tourist destination. Or at the very least, something in the middle.
Exactly House...

Hugh, you stated that no self-respecting Baltimorian would shop there and your brother still calls it horrible place, which I assume alludes to the early days of the kite store etc, and pure tourist stops, and is why no one wants to shop down there. (If these stores were geared at everyday living by all means correct me.) Because of that, I'm not really sure what side of the arguement you sit on. Do you want the locally owned tourist traps, or corporate owned stores geared to everyday living? ie, Urban Outfitters, Best Buy, Filene's etc. The third option, which I think the pavillions were for most of the 90's and early part of this decade, is corporate tourist traps. That is something I know none of us want! Unfortunately there is no fourth option of locally owned stores geared toward's every-day living. That's barely an option anywhere these days! So my question for you Hugh is what do you want your Harbor to look like, what would make it appealing for locals to come down and shop?

When I moved downtown 3 years ago, I too wouldn't of been caught dead shopping in the pavillion. The Gallery isn't/wasn't so bad, it has J.Crew, Brooks Brothers, Banana, etc. And, if I may, let me echo Hugh's comments, the shopping in the entire downtown area has begun shifting towards more of a balance between tourism and downtown living, and is a place that just makes sense for me to shop. I'd like to challenge those who haven't lately to give the IH another chance, even if you still call it horrible place, as the entire area now extends well beyond the galleries.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 07:54 AM   #2589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CU_rak View Post
How could this possibly be approved??? A 95 foot high garage in FELLS POINT?!! How high do the land values have to go to warrant an underground garage, or at least some respect for the surrounding historic properties! Even though it is tied to a renovation of the pavilions on Broadway, this is outrageous! Why don't we start demolishing Federal Hill for surface lots!!!

I can't believe the city planning commission voted UNANIMOUSLY for this proposal!!!

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...tml?from_rss=1
The garage is concealed on an alley street with residential above, I believe. It would be too many floors to bury anyway.

The garage IS NOT 95 ft. The entire structure itself is 95 feet high. The garage is about 70 ft, IIRC.

Nate
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Old April 4th, 2007, 08:07 AM   #2590
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When Harborplace first opened, I think it had a thoughtful balance of cheesy-touristy stuff, as well as goods such a clothes, art and home goods, geared for the local resident. To top it all off, you had the foodstuff: be it a sit down restaurant, or quick bite to eat from Pete’s Pizza. People could actually purchase produce where the Discovery Store was (granted that wasn’t cheap). For those lucky enough to work in downtown and live in Federal Hill, on the first floor of the Light Street pavilion, on the way home you could purchase fresh fish, poultry, or other items to cook for dinner. Needed kitchen utensils? You went to China Closet in the Pratt Street Pavilion. That was part of the draw; it was what it was designed to be: a replica of the typical city market, but with the twist of a mall, on the waterfront. For tourists, it was a window onto Baltimore, and people loved it…

Harborplace was so distinctive and new, yet somehow so familiar. The ascent up the escalator in the Pratt Street pavilion: what a joy! The vibrant colors of kites at The Kite Loft strung throughout the space. The play of smells and colors, people and sounds; Baltimoreans, tourists, elitists, and plenty of “puffed” Hons, we all played together at Harborplace.

By the late 80s, early 90s, that’s when stalls started to close, and were being replaced by more of what House3780 refers to as the t-shirt and magnet joints. While I don’t know how many kites The Kite Loft sold, but for years, Harborplace commanded the highest gross receipts per square foot of any of the other “festival marketplaces.”

Rouse was a little like Walt Disney: he brought a lot of joy and happiness into our lives. But like Disney, he was a total control freak. Tenant scrutiny was infamous, and several cases ended up being challenged in the Baltimore court system. It wasn’t easy having Rouse as a landlord, and when the lease expired, many tenants, even if they were extremely profitable, ended up getting pushed out just because they didn’t fit the Rouse demographic.

But with Harborplace, we can’t forget the opposition that started in 1978 against its development, and how it ultimately became a ballot proposition. And of course, how Little Italy restaurauntuers fought it tooth and nail, every single step of the way, since they interpreted it as direct competition…

Harborplace is what it is: you either love it or hate it. But without doubt, no other building in Baltimore has defined us as well as it…
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Old April 4th, 2007, 10:23 AM   #2591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scando View Post
This is true of retail all over. There has been a progressive loss of local retail over the past couple decades. High rents in places like Harborplace seem to abet the process. It doesn't seem likely that the entire place will go over to chain retailers. The owners just finished spending a lot of money refurbishing the food area on the second floor and so far has mostly (Subway excepted) avoided going to chain food. It appears that the primary change in Light St has been that the City Lights space went over to Urban Outfitters. When Harborplace was built, restaurants downtown were not as numerous as now so having a restaurant there was quite a novelty that it is not now. Phillips doesn't seem to do the business it once did either; they closed their buffet for a couple months this winter.
People would be shocked to find out what the rents are in a typical upscale mall. Rules prohibit me revealing what the rent is for the store I help manage in Annapolis Mall, but let me put it this way...it would buy a nice midsize car..every month!! And people wonder why prices are so high. Wanna rent one of those kiosks in the common area of one of those malls? You'd better not be adverse to risk...they run from 2k to 9k, depending on the season.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 01:59 PM   #2592
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Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
The garage is concealed on an alley street with residential above, I believe. It would be too many floors to bury anyway.

The garage IS NOT 95 ft. The entire structure itself is 95 feet high. The garage is about 70 ft, IIRC.

Nate
You are correct, sir.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:02 PM   #2593
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Originally Posted by CU_rak View Post
How could this possibly be approved??? A 95 foot high garage in FELLS POINT?!! How high do the land values have to go to warrant an underground garage, or at least some respect for the surrounding historic properties! Even though it is tied to a renovation of the pavilions on Broadway, this is outrageous! Why don't we start demolishing Federal Hill for surface lots!!!

I can't believe the city planning commission voted UNANIMOUSLY for this proposal!!!

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore...tml?from_rss=1
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. I don't live in Fells but I spend a good deal of time there visiting friends. I've looked at the drawings and I like what is proposed. And above all, it adds more density to Fells to get more people on the streets.

Their plan takes all of Broadway from Fleet Street to the water into consideration. Streetscape improvements, broadway market improvements, new mixed use development, as well as sufficient parking. Sounds good to me, I don't think the 95 foot structure will be that detrimental to the Fells point character. I've even read a few articles which quote a preservation group in favor of the project so I assume they can't be demolishing anything significant.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:11 PM   #2594
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Yeah, but why the surface parking lot? Does the addition of 20 extra spaces really warrant the demolition of several properties?

Also, is Hats in the Belfry still in Harbor Place? That place has to be locally-owned.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:30 PM   #2595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpreston02 View Post
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. I don't live in Fells but I spend a good deal of time there visiting friends. I've looked at the drawings and I like what is proposed. And above all, it adds more density to Fells to get more people on the streets.

Their plan takes all of Broadway from Fleet Street to the water into consideration. Streetscape improvements, broadway market improvements, new mixed use development, as well as sufficient parking. Sounds good to me, I don't think the 95 foot structure will be that detrimental to the Fells point character. I've even read a few articles which quote a preservation group in favor of the project so I assume they can't be demolishing anything significant.
I think it looks pretty good, the top of the building is 4 floors above an average existing building and its on an alley, so not to overpowering. Good chance you will not be able to see it from Broadway. That section of broadway needs some new development and life and this will provid it.

I don't understand the need for the sevice lot either. Maybe for some quick in and out parking for retail?
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:31 PM   #2596
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I heard that JHU has broken ground on the second building in there massive east side project. Anyone got pics?
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Old April 4th, 2007, 04:48 PM   #2597
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I was down at Mercy again yesterday (you guessed it.....) The "new" Davis St garage is almost half done. It is either 10 or 11 stories, perhaps slightly taller than the Calvert St garage. This garage replaces the old 4 or 5 story structure that "improved" the property previously.

It is about .389256 as ugly as the Calvert St garage.

That is all.

Nate
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Old April 4th, 2007, 08:06 PM   #2598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpreston02 View Post
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. I don't live in Fells but I spend a good deal of time there visiting friends. I've looked at the drawings and I like what is proposed. And above all, it adds more density to Fells to get more people on the streets.

Their plan takes all of Broadway from Fleet Street to the water into consideration. Streetscape improvements, broadway market improvements, new mixed use development, as well as sufficient parking. Sounds good to me, I don't think the 95 foot structure will be that detrimental to the Fells point character. I've even read a few articles which quote a preservation group in favor of the project so I assume they can't be demolishing anything significant.
i'm also going to have to disadree with CU_rak as well. this plan seems to be very pedestrian friendly. i would say proceed with the development.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 08:28 PM   #2599
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Originally Posted by jpreston02 View Post
[The Marketplace at Fells Point] plan takes all of Broadway from Fleet Street to the water into consideration. Streetscape improvements, broadway market improvements, new mixed use development, as well as sufficient parking.
Yes, but whoever drew that illustration of Broadway Square should reconsider ... grass on half the space and a fountain (i.e. wintertime trash receptacle) in place of the pink granite restaurant booth? Yeesh.

Still, a good project, even if it does block the view down Broadway from a friend's house.
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Old April 4th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #2600
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Park Side Restaurant

Heard/Saw some bad news yesterday...

The Park Side Restaurant along the eastern edge of Patterson Park along Baltimore St closed a month or so ago. Although I never went, I heard it got good reviews and was nice inside. Supposedly they were not able to draw anyone from outside the neighborhood due to the stigma that the corner is still bad news. Additionally the neighborhood was just not dense enough to support such a place.

I think B'more density is a very difficult and unique situation. It has a relatively low population density when compared to the density of land used for housing. Baltimore clearly doesn't like height. I'm not talking 20 or 30 stories, I'm talking 8-13stories, low rise stuff (95 ft lets say). Because of that, the neighborhoods don't have the population to support many restaurants and other small shops that should garner most of their business from customers living in walking distance. This cuts down on walking traffic, making the streets just a little more desserted and thus dangerous.

On the other-hand nearly all the land is occupied by row houses, parking is tough to come by or expensive so it is nearly impossible to attract sufficient business from people having to drive to your location outside of the set retail districts.

Its a paradox! Anyone have any good ways to fix this??
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