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Old April 19th, 2007, 08:57 PM   #3001
DemolitionDave
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Plus Boston Street is due for some upgrades. Ed Hale is paying to have the underpass removed so the road can be widened and we will no longer have to sit through the thousand car coal train. :rolleyes:


Did you know that Boston St. was originally called Canton Avenue?
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Old April 19th, 2007, 09:26 PM   #3002
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sorry, not trying to be crabby. actually in a good mood today. its just that i know these people are out there in our fair city.

cheers!

Lets put this to rest!

You are right! Maryland is the 3rd richest state in the union on a per capita income basis. They expect it to be number 2 by the next census (it's only $9 behind NJ). Anyone who thinks all the money is just in the DC burbs is misinformed. It is spread around the state quite nicely. You'd be surprised how many wealthy people there are on the Eastern Shore and Western Maryland. The Baltimore area is actually very wealthy. It is just the city that is "poor", but that is changing as we all know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

Baltimore is 21st richest metro area in U.S.
(That is 21st out of all 360+ Metros)
Daily Record, The (Baltimore), Jun 27, 2002 by Todd Karpovich

When people think of Baltimore, they might conjure up images of blue-collar workers and row houses. While Baltimore does have a rich industrial heritage, a concentration of "old money families" makes it one of the wealthiest in the nation, according to a survey by a Chicago-based consulting firm.

Baltimore ranks 21st among the 30 richest metropolitan areas in the United States, and has more than 96,000 residents with a net worth between $1 million and $5 million, according to the Spectrem Group Inc. About 52,000 Baltimore residents have between $1 million and $2 million in investable assets, according to the research. That kind of concentrated wealth also helps explain why several investment firms have opened wealth management offices in the area in recent years.

Charles W. "Pete" Shaefer Jr., a senior vice president at RBC DainRauscher in Baltimore, said much of Baltimore's wealth comes from families that have been involved in the city's banking, brokerage and real estate industries for more than half a century. He said outsiders sometimes overlook the city's wealth because the most affluent residents tend to be conservative and value their privacy. "I think if you went out to the Elkridge Club or the Maryland Club and looked at their membership rosters, you would see a lot of the names that represent old Baltimore wealth," said Shaefer, who advises some of the area's most wealthy individuals.

"When you think of Baltimore, you think of old row houses and marble steps. But there were a lot of major industries that emerged here after World War II, and people made a lot of money." New York is the wealthiest metropolitan area in the nation, followed by Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington and Philadelphia, according to the survey of households with a net worth of at least $500,000. New Jersey is home to four of the rankings' wealthiest areas in Newark, Bergen, Middlesex and parts of the Philadelphia suburbs.

Susan Traver, a managing director of the Washington and Tyson's Corner offices of U.S. Trust Corp., said Baltimore has gotten some runoff of wealthy individuals originally from the Washington metropolitan area, especially in the technology sector. However, she said Baltimore consistently has been able to nurture its own prosperity with old-money families. "Baltimore is an older, more established market," Traver said.

"There is a lot of new money in D.C., but Baltimore has a lot of old money. Many families in Baltimore have been able to keep their wealth from generation to generation." However, another recent survey by U.S. Trust showed affluent individuals in Baltimore and other cities are worried about their future prospects. The impact of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the accounting scandal at Enron Corp. are two of the biggest concerns among affluent Americans, according to the survey. U.S. Trust reported that 85 percent of the nation's richest people have seen their investment portfolios decline since March 2000 -- the height of the bull market. In addition, 73 percent of affluent Americans are worried that the next generation will have a more difficult time financially.

Nevertheless, that uncertainty still has not stopped wealth management firms from tapping into some of Baltimore's richest residents. Wilmington Trust FSB, Maryland, recently opened a wealth management office in downtown Baltimore to capitalize on the number of wealthy residents in the area. Thomas G. B. Finney, vice president and managing director of that firm, said the company does take into consideration rankings released by companies like Spectrem and U.S. Trust, but also does its own market analysis to find vibrant areas for business. "This market has been ripe for many years," Finney said. "There are many wealthy families in this area. We knew for some time that Baltimore was a very viable market."

While Baltimore has been successful in producing some of the nation's wealthiest individuals, Barry Strudwick, president of Strudwick Wealth Strategies, said cutting-edge industries such as biotechnology and telecommunications have yet to have a significant impact. He said most of the wealth in Baltimore comes from the financial services sector, with companies like Legg Mason Inc., T. Rowe Price Associates Inc. and the former Alex. Brown & Sons. "There is certainly a good amount of older wealth in Baltimore," Strudwick said. "The area is perhaps lagging in new wealth in relation to Northern Virginia and Montgomery County, where a lot of people made money in the telecom sector."

Last edited by 30 Floors Up; April 19th, 2007 at 10:17 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 09:45 PM   #3003
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Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
Plus Boston Street is due for some upgrades. Ed Hale is paying to have the underpass removed so the road can be widened and we will no longer have to sit through the thousand car coal train. :rolleyes:


Did you know that Boston St. was originally called Canton Avenue?
?

There is no underpass on Boston for the Railroad tracks. There is an underpass on Eastern and O'Donnel bridges over them, but Boston is at grade.

Boston does need to be grade seperated from the tracks and made at least 4 lanes to the interstate.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:01 PM   #3004
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There IS an unerpass on Boston St. (I live on Boston street). The underpass is about a foot lower than most of the other underpasses so about evry 2 months or so a truck hits it (or gets stuck under it). Next time you go under it take a look at the dents.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:05 PM   #3005
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Good point. While it was another generation altogether, it was still a form of NIMBY-ism that prevented “the highway” from being built through Canton, Fells Point and Federal Hill.

I think just about EVERYONE here would say it was a good thing the highway was never built.

So, in a sense, aren’t we all NIMBY’s?
Hmmm. Probably should distinguish between Not In My Back Yard and Not Through My Living Room, which is where the highway was going to go, and, in the case of some residents of Canton (SE of St. Casimir's, between Boston and O'Donnell), did go.

Homeland, Guilford, and Roland Park also benefited from very restrictive covenants that made certain houses were built and maintained a certain way. In Homeland and Guilford, for example, slate roofs must be replaced with slate. Small details, but they add up.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:23 PM   #3006
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Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Lets put this to rest!

You are right! Maryland is the 3rd richest state in the union on a per capita income basis. They expect it to be number 2 by the next census (it's only $9 behind NJ). Anyone who thinks all the money is just in the DC burbs is misinformed. It is spread around the state quite nicely. You'd be surprised how many wealthy people there are on the Eastern Shore and Western Maryland. The Baltimore area is actually very wealthy. It is just the city that is "poor", but that is changing as we all know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

Baltimore is 21st richest metro area in U.S.
(That is 21st out of all 360+ Metros)
Daily Record, The (Baltimore), Jun 27, 2002 by Todd Karpovich

When people think of Baltimore, they might conjure up images of blue-collar workers and row houses. While Baltimore does have a rich industrial heritage, a concentration of "old money families" makes it one of the wealthiest in the nation, according to a survey by a Chicago-based consulting firm.

Baltimore ranks 21st among the 30 richest metropolitan areas in the United States, and has more than 96,000 residents with a net worth between $1 million and $5 million, according to the Spectrem Group Inc. About 52,000 Baltimore residents have between $1 million and $2 million in investable assets, according to the research. That kind of concentrated wealth also helps explain why several investment firms have opened wealth management offices in the area in recent years.

Charles W. "Pete" Shaefer Jr., a senior vice president at RBC DainRauscher in Baltimore, said much of Baltimore's wealth comes from families that have been involved in the city's banking, brokerage and real estate industries for more than half a century. He said outsiders sometimes overlook the city's wealth because the most affluent residents tend to be conservative and value their privacy. "I think if you went out to the Elkridge Club or the Maryland Club and looked at their membership rosters, you would see a lot of the names that represent old Baltimore wealth," said Shaefer, who advises some of the area's most wealthy individuals.

"When you think of Baltimore, you think of old row houses and marble steps. But there were a lot of major industries that emerged here after World War II, and people made a lot of money." New York is the wealthiest metropolitan area in the nation, followed by Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington and Philadelphia, according to the survey of households with a net worth of at least $500,000. New Jersey is home to four of the rankings' wealthiest areas in Newark, Bergen, Middlesex and parts of the Philadelphia suburbs.

Susan Traver, a managing director of the Washington and Tyson's Corner offices of U.S. Trust Corp., said Baltimore has gotten some runoff of wealthy individuals originally from the Washington metropolitan area, especially in the technology sector. However, she said Baltimore consistently has been able to nurture its own prosperity with old-money families. "Baltimore is an older, more established market," Traver said.

"There is a lot of new money in D.C., but Baltimore has a lot of old money. Many families in Baltimore have been able to keep their wealth from generation to generation." However, another recent survey by U.S. Trust showed affluent individuals in Baltimore and other cities are worried about their future prospects. The impact of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the accounting scandal at Enron Corp. are two of the biggest concerns among affluent Americans, according to the survey. U.S. Trust reported that 85 percent of the nation's richest people have seen their investment portfolios decline since March 2000 -- the height of the bull market. In addition, 73 percent of affluent Americans are worried that the next generation will have a more difficult time financially.

Nevertheless, that uncertainty still has not stopped wealth management firms from tapping into some of Baltimore's richest residents. Wilmington Trust FSB, Maryland, recently opened a wealth management office in downtown Baltimore to capitalize on the number of wealthy residents in the area. Thomas G. B. Finney, vice president and managing director of that firm, said the company does take into consideration rankings released by companies like Spectrem and U.S. Trust, but also does its own market analysis to find vibrant areas for business. "This market has been ripe for many years," Finney said. "There are many wealthy families in this area. We knew for some time that Baltimore was a very viable market."

While Baltimore has been successful in producing some of the nation's wealthiest individuals, Barry Strudwick, president of Strudwick Wealth Strategies, said cutting-edge industries such as biotechnology and telecommunications have yet to have a significant impact. He said most of the wealth in Baltimore comes from the financial services sector, with companies like Legg Mason Inc., T. Rowe Price Associates Inc. and the former Alex. Brown & Sons. "There is certainly a good amount of older wealth in Baltimore," Strudwick said. "The area is perhaps lagging in new wealth in relation to Northern Virginia and Montgomery County, where a lot of people made money in the telecom sector."
is the ranking based on # of wealthy or %age of wealthy residents? It looks like # which considering Bmore ranks around 20 in msa population isn't all that great.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:42 PM   #3007
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Hmmm. Probably should distinguish between Not In My Back Yard and Not Through My Living Room, which is where the highway was going to go, and, in the case of some residents of Canton (SE of St. Casimir's, between Boston and O'Donnell), did go.

Homeland, Guilford, and Roland Park also benefited from very restrictive covenants that made certain houses were built and maintained a certain way. In Homeland and Guilford, for example, slate roofs must be replaced with slate. Small details, but they add up.
Good point. Even though several blocks of housing did get demolished south of O'Donnell Street for the highway, while old stock, it was nothing close in comparison to what would have happened in Federal Hill, or the irreversible damage that would have occurred in Fells Point with the construction of the highway.

And, the demolished housing in Canton was eventually replaced with Canton Square, the senior housing, and the arena, whereas if the highway had been built, today we would probably be faced with the additional obstacle of trying to find funding to dismantle the damn thing -- so be it "back yard" or "living room" -- I'm grateful a bunch of waterfront residents had the guts to stand up and oppose "urban renewal" while much of the city and state mocked them for being against progress.

So while today the mix of people and players are different, I'd be willing to listen to what the neighborhood residents have to say, since they know their neighborhood probably better than anyone else...
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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:43 PM   #3008
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is the ranking based on # of wealthy or %age of wealthy residents? It looks like # which considering Bmore ranks around 20 in msa population isn't all that great.
Does it really matter? The question that started the wealth discussion is: Where are all these people coming from to purchase 250+ over $1,000,000 units at the Ritz and other downtown buildings?

The point is that in 2002 there were more than 96,000 residents with a net worth between $1 million and $5 million, and 52,000 Baltimore area residents had between $1 million and $2 million in investable assets. You don't have to be a genius to see that 250 units at that price point could easily have been sold to locals.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:45 PM   #3009
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Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
There IS an unerpass on Boston St. (I live on Boston street). The underpass is about a foot lower than most of the other underpasses so about evry 2 months or so a truck hits it (or gets stuck under it). Next time you go under it take a look at the dents.
So, which is it? Remove the underpass, or create a new underpass, or both?

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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:53 PM   #3010
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Both, You can't widen Boston Street with the bridge abutments there, so it has to go. They are calling it the Boston Street Viaduct so I would assume it would be similiar to O'Donnel Strret and Boston Street would be raised.


All I know is that there are an awful lot of high end condos that have been sitting on the market for a long long time. Look at the 2 penthouses in the Anchorage that have been on sale for over a year. There is some kind of artificially inflated demand for these Ritz Carlton condos. I didn't realize that people actually take the sales figures from the developer as "gospel"

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Old April 19th, 2007, 10:56 PM   #3011
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Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Does it really matter? The question that started the wealth discussion is: Where are all these people coming from to purchase 250+ over $1,000,000 units at the Ritz and other downtown buildings?

The point is that in 2002 there were more than 96,000 residents with a net worth between $1 million and $5 million, and 52,000 Baltimore area residents had between $1 million and $2 million in investable assets. You don't have to be a genius to see that 250 units at that price point could easily have been sold to locals.
But I think it does matter. Where was all the local wealth through the years? Waterfront and urban condos have had a better success within the last five years than the previous twenty years. It helps to know what the market is...so that it can be developed accordingly.

Perhaps it was a dated explanation, but for a long time we heard Baltimoreans do not like to purchase condos since it goes against their rationale, since Baltimoreans like to purchase their dwelling unit outright. So what has suddenly changed in the local market where within a very short time we're finding local residents suddenly changing their minds?

Granted, the local Generation "X" and "Y" groups along with older Empty-Nesters are feeding this demand, but I firmly believe the new demand is mostly being fed by an influx of new people into the region.

Last edited by Eerik; April 19th, 2007 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Spelling edit...
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Old April 19th, 2007, 11:04 PM   #3012
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But I think it does matter. Where was all the local wealth through the years? Waterfront and urban condos have had a better success within the last five years than the previous twenty years. It helps to know what the market is...so that it can be developed accordingly.

Perhaps it was a dated explanation, but for a long time we heard Baltimoreans do not like to purchase condos since it goes against their rationale, since Baltimoreans like to purchase their dwelling unit outright. So what has suddenly changed in the local market where within a very short time we're finding local residents suddenly changing their minds?

Granted, the local Generation "X" and "Y" groups along with older Empty-Nesters are feeding this demand, but I firmly believe the new demand is mostly being fed by an influx of new people into the region.
We are a conservative people in many respects, and we're always 10 years behind the times. That's why "Big Hair" just went out of style here! LOL

BTW, acording to the developers of the Ritz, about 70% of the sales were to locals.

Ritz-y living in demand
Luxury condos going up at Inner Harbor are pulling in buyers
By Lorraine Mirabella
Sun reporter
Originally published January 17, 2007

Move over, Boardwalk and Park Place.

The swanky Ritz-Carlton condominium project rising at Baltimore's Inner Harbor is pulling in buyers as fast as units are released for sale, and the first two mid-rise buildings are expected to be just about full when they open in the fall.

The developer credits the cachet of the luxury Ritz-Carlton brand and the project's prime waterfront location for the strong demand, even as the housing slump has stalled condo sales in Baltimore and elsewhere.

When the last batch of five were put out for sale in mid-December, including a penthouse with a price tag north of $5 million, all were gone in a day. All three of the $5 million-plus penthouses have been sold.

And despite earlier projections that it would be Washington money moving in, it's mostly Baltimore's well-heeled who are lining up for the $1.5 million-and-up residences.

About 75 percent of the buyers are "notable Baltimoreans," said Jack J. Cayre, a principal with the project's developer, Midtown Equities LLC.

"They want to live near people they're associated with - or would like to be associated with," Cayre said yesterday, as the developer marked the midway point in completing the project, placing the final steel beams on two of the buildings.

"The key that ties everyone together is lifestyle. They're looking for that lifestyle," Cayre said.

Though Cayre won't disclose the number of units sold, the Downtown Partnership of Baltimore estimates that 125 of the 192 units have sold. Cayre said he expects most of the 100 units in the first two buildings to be sold when those buildings are finished later this year.

Buyers have been a mix of local celebrities and county dwellers who want to scale down or have a place for their boats, said Michael Yerman, a broker with Long & Foster Real Estate hired to handle sales for the project.

"The Ritz is like saying Rolls-Royce," Yerman said. "We've had a lot of inquiries from around the country and from the immediate area because it's a Ritz-Carlton."

That name and all it promises meant everything to Ray Ferguson, a retired director of a lab equipment company from Annapolis, and his wife, Jan, a retired owner of an interior plantscape firm. When they didn't find what they were looking for in Annapolis, the Baltimore natives looked at the Ritz, then looked no further. The couple will move into a first-floor, two-bedroom condo at the Ritz with a private lawn.


A lifestyle choice
"From a lifestyle standpoint, I don't think there's anyplace like the Ritz that would offer this kind of lifestyle - pools that I don't have to clean, hot tubs I don't have to clean, a concierge, valet parking, maid service if we need it, restaurants you can get to without getting your umbrella out, parking under our unit and getting into a private elevator," said Ferguson, who will sell a single-family home in Annapolis.

"We travel an awful lot, and when we have to leave our present house, it's a chore and when away, worry about it. This way, it's a lock-and-leave situation," he said.

So far, Midtown Equities' strategy of gauging demand and releasing only a handful of units at a time to a competitive pool of buyers is paying off. None of the released units remain unsold, Cayre said.

Midtown is betting that demand will continue to build to the end, bringing higher prices than if the units were all put up for sale at once, Yerman said

Housing experts credit the fast pace of sales to the relative scarcity of comparable upscale waterfront housing and a small percentage of available condos in an area the size of metro Baltimore.

"If you really look at the numbers, we don't have a big condo market here at all, even with the new projects coming, based on the size of the metro area and the number of new condos," said Robert Aydukovich, vice president of economic development for the Downtown Partnership. "What's available currently is a small percentage in this population."..........

Last edited by 30 Floors Up; April 19th, 2007 at 11:13 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 11:13 PM   #3013
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Like I asked before "Who are these people?"


A unit going for $1.7 million has annual taxes of $17,600. The condo fees are $800 per month. That means that the owner is shelling out $27,200 per year in addition to whatever their monthly mortgage is.

If these are "empty nesters" they sure don't believe in leaving anything to their kids.

Last edited by DemolitionDave; April 19th, 2007 at 11:53 PM.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 12:15 AM   #3014
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If these are "empty nesters" they sure don't believe in leaving anything to their kids.
Real estate's an asset you can pass on to your heirs ... and (bonus!) live in 'til the pine box beckons.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 12:34 AM   #3015
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Where is this building you are refering to to be built?
Im not sure.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 02:33 AM   #3016
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Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
Like I asked before "Who are these people?"


A unit going for $1.7 million has annual taxes of $17,600. The condo fees are $800 per month. That means that the owner is shelling out $27,200 per year in addition to whatever their monthly mortgage is.

If these are "empty nesters" they sure don't believe in leaving anything to their kids.

Dave,

How did you come to $17,600 for the annual tax. Baltimore city taxes at 2.3% of assessed rate. That would put it at $39K!!
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Old April 20th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #3017
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Condo fees aren't really fair to count, because with a house, one's got the hidden costs of maintenance that hits in spurts, comparable to condo fees in the long run, I'd say.

Nate
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Old April 20th, 2007, 03:02 AM   #3018
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I thought the tax rate was 2.54%.


Either way, the number of uber-expensive condos is still rather small, and I don't think 10 IH or 300 E. Pratt will be nearly as expensive and Naing wants to do "affordable" $250K units in his towers. So.....I think we're beating the horse here a little:

There's some significant wealth in Baltimore--enough to fill the condos along with a sufficient number of outsiders from the other East Coast cities who view us as below market rate....Agree?

Nate
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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:02 AM   #3019
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Real estate's an asset you can pass on to your heirs ... and (bonus!) live in 'til the pine box beckons.
absolutely!!
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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:04 AM   #3020
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Like I asked before "Who are these people?"
in a previous post i mentioned the names of some of the people i deal with who could easily afford to buy at the ritz...and pay in cash. i don't know that any of the affore mentioned folks ARE buying there, but the point is...i know they can if they choose to! i do know that a property manager who has his name up on some local health clubs has bought the two end units of one of the harborview piers. hes' knocking through the wall to make one huge place on the end of the pier.

ona slightly more humble note, i didn't realize these people exisited either until i started dealing with them on a daily basis. one guy i know spent over a million dollars on home electronics in his new place. thats the price of a condo spent on home theater stuff!
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