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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #3601
southbalto
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That area is really coming together.

http://www.twelve09living.com/
www.stationnorthtownhomes.com
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:13 PM   #3602
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Somone needs to take on the Copycat building soon......Huge potential.
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #3603
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Originally Posted by slake707 View Post
I can guarentee an Arena Team, because Baltimore already has one. The Baltimore Blackbirds, they are members of the American Indoor Football Association. There first season is the year, and they are 1 and 9. The home games are played at First Mariner

eesh the american indoor football association? I was kinda thinking the AFL where the games are shown on NBC and you play teams from NY, Atlanta, Phoenix, and other big leage cities. Not Reading and Montgomery, AL.... I'm not poo-pooing the players or league or ownership, but saddly it looks like this league is about on par with 1st mariner arena.
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:29 PM   #3604
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Originally Posted by cgunna View Post
WTF do they mean Baltimore is no longer in the running for an NBA/NHL team?

Who the hell is/was qualified to make such a stupid statement?
The actual statement was that Baltimore is no longer vying for a NBA/NHL team. That suggests that city officials aren't actively pursuing a professional franchise. It's not like the statement was subjective. Apparently, as a matter of fact, the city just isn't trying.

The thing that isn't adding up to me is that they want to spend between $120 and $160 million on constructing a new arena. Assuming that does not include the cost of demolition, the cost of purchasing land, etc., the city be getting a lot more bang for its buck than 15K seats.

Maryland built Comcast Center, one of the largest facilities in all of college basketball, for $125 million. That building seats 18K people. I know construction costs are higher now than they were in 2000-2002, but only 15K seats for $160 million? What gives?
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:32 PM   #3605
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Somone needs to take on the Copycat building soon......Huge potential.
I couldnt agree more. Honestly, I think Station North will go the way of SoHo in Manhattan (not exactly, but its the best comparison I could think of on the fly). Initially, it'll be all about the artists, then when the area becomes habitable, the yuppies and other affluent demographics will pounce, raise rents and property values and oust most of the people who got the area going in the first place.
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:34 PM   #3606
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Originally Posted by scottbbfm View Post
eesh the american indoor football association? I was kinda thinking the AFL where the games are shown on NBC and you play teams from NY, Atlanta, Phoenix, and other big leage cities. Not Reading and Montgomery, AL.... I'm not poo-pooing the players or league or ownership, but saddly it looks like this league is about on par with 1st mariner arena.
That franchise isn't going to make it. Either the league will fold or the franchise will. I honestly don't expect the Blackbirds to be around for long.
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:39 PM   #3607
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Originally Posted by waj0527 View Post
The actual statement was that Baltimore is no longer vying for a NBA/NHL team. That suggests that city officials aren't actively pursuing a professional franchise. It's not like the statement was subjective. Apparently, as a matter of fact, the city just isn't trying.

The thing that isn't adding up to me is that they want to spend between $120 and $160 million on constructing a new arena. Assuming that does not include the cost of demolition, the cost of purchasing land, etc., the city be getting a lot more bang for its buck than 15K seats.

Maryland built Comcast Center, one of the largest facilities in all of college basketball, for $125 million. That building seats 18K people. I know construction costs are higher now than they were in 2000-2002, but only 15K seats for $160 million? What gives?
I am incensed about this. This is the most assinine idea by city leaders who pride themselves on thinking "big league". They talk about Baltimore becoming a Worl Class city. How do they reconcile this plan to build a second rate facility. THIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY. Either do it right or keep the existing peace of junk. How can you ask the taxpayers to foot the bill for this?

No one knows for sure what the future holds for getting and/or NBA or NHL franchise. These teams are constantly shifting. Cities much smaller than Baltimore have landed them. Surely if you build an inadequate facility you are stuck forever. Even without a major franchise you cannot attract major events like the NCAA or a political convention, for example without a sufficent venue. For 2 - 3 thousand more seats, why not do it right? How much more could it cost? This proposed recommendation gives the city nothing on the taxpayer's dime. I hope the powers that be wake up quickly.
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:54 PM   #3608
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Maybe I'm giving the city too much credit by assuming that if they do build a 15K seat arena that it will have the capacity to expand to 19-20K in the future based on demand. Its really a simple thing to do. Just build a large enough building, but dont add all the seats.

Although, I'm not sure why they wouldn't add all the seats at once. Its not like it saves that much money. I actually negotiated the seating contract for Phase 3 construction of Cal Sr.'s Yard, the Ripken Foundation's replica of Camden Yards in Aberdeen. We paid $73.11 per seat. Those are mostly metal. I couldnt imagine seats for an arena costing more than that. Not adding an addition 3K-4K seats only saves ~$300K. Add the damn extra chairs and pay off the damn loans more quickly having the extra seats to put more butts in.

Building a 15K seats arena is nothing short of an idiotic move.
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Old May 14th, 2007, 11:55 PM   #3609
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I am going to be in the minority, but I think a 15k arena is fine. It is unquestionably better than what we have now. I can't think that in 10 years we will land a team, and by that point a new team will want an even newer arena anyway. So a slightly smaller arena works for me.

Saying that, I like the idea of 2 arenas, a smaller 8-10k , that hale can use and whomever, tear down the current arena for a big arena, I'm just not sure we could fill it,.

I had no idea the arena employeed 710.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 12:01 AM   #3610
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I am thoroughly dissapointed as well. as Waj said, Comcast holds near 20,000 and was $125 million. Though, as a collegiate arena the atmosphere is less about the amenities and more about the experience. In the pro leagues they generally are more interested about amenities than atmosphere, though both are important. So it may be a stretch to get a 19k seat arena with top notch amenities at 125 million. But at 160 million one should expect atleast a full 20k arena with a fair amount of goodies. I hope everybody protests this plan if they try to use taxpayers dollars.

I must sya the idea of having two arenas is appealing, a 15,000 seat arena for indoor soccer and other sports, and then 20,000 arena for political conventions, boxing matches, local highschool tournaments, major concerts, ect.

And the last I will say is, atleast they are attemtping to keep the arena downtown. Keeping the arena walking distance from most of the harbor is key.

Also, O'Malley believe sBaltimore can have an NBA team within 10 years. This is second hand information, but very reliable. So getting a 15k arena is a waste.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 12:17 AM   #3611
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Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
Baltimore had a NHL and a NBA team and the populace didn't support them. Nothing has changed demographically to suggest the same outcome wouldn't occur. Heck, we barely support a baseball team. If the Ravens have a couple losing seasons the fans will turn their backs on them too.

There was nothing better than a Polack Johnny's hot dog with "the woiks" at 3AM in the morning. 3 of those and I never had to worry about a hangover.
With you on the second paragraph. On the first, well ... Balto never had an NHL team (Clippers were AHL). Pollin taking the Bullets to Landover in 1973 was first and foremost about Real Estate: he controlled that suburban property, built an arena w/ 18K seats (against 11K at the Civic Center) and got all the revenue from non-Bullets events plus all parking fees plus he effectively froze the Washington and Baltimore markets in the process. He was (and still is) counting on Baltimore area fans to make his nut. Could the region handle another pro team? Dunno, but could be DC that loses a franchise, which is fine w/ me.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:11 AM   #3612
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Comcast cheaper with more seats?

It makes sense because that is a basketball only facility. While there are a decent amount of skyboxes, its obvious its nothing like the Verizon Center or Wachovia center. Those are true multi-purpose facilities with upper levels, a much bigger floor area that can be converted to ice, basketball, arena football, to a convention over a 4 days span. All that stuff costs money which is why a true arena would costs much more than a bball only facility.

Now I am in the camp that we need a 19-20K seat arena, but the increased cost would go well over the cost of the seats @ $73 a pop. You need more concrete, a wider and higher arena. Not to mention more bathrooms, more concessions, lighting, maybe another AC unit as the volume is now much bigger. Easily a $20 mil increase in cost. Worth it though if it means the difference between a NCAA Mens regional game versus a women's 1st and second round site. (no offense to the women, but its economics!)
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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:11 AM   #3613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeclue View Post
Very upsetting about the arena news. My guess is that they feel like the NBA and NHL have no inclination to expand anytime soon, and there is some truth to that. The NHL def is not expanding and will most likely contract at some point. I think we could definitely get ourselves an NBA team from another city like Seattle or Memphis. Those two cities immediately come to mind.
Being from Memphis originally, I think if that city lost the Grizzlies it would be really sad. They JUST built a brand new arena (FedEX Forum) specifically for the NBA just to get the team...even though they had a perfectly good arena that is actually alot more attractive that was built ten years prior (The Pyramid)

See this is why no city really should aspire to lure a professional team. They have no loyalty what-so-ever.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 02:23 AM   #3614
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Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
I don't think that most of the city is segregated these days. For that matter, neither are the burbs. I ride the Marc trains to and from work, and the riders who get on and off at ALL the stops are quite a mixed bag. I think people will be surprised when the next census figures are published in 2012 or so.

The difference between a good neighborhood and a bad one is the amount of involvement the residents have in making the neighborhood good. High drug dealing neighborhoods are that way because most (but not all) of the people who live in them are willing to tolerate the dealing. If they didn't tollerate it, and called the police EVERY TIME they see it happening, the dealers would move some place else.

I assure you that when AK47's are involved, it is drug related. All we can do is collectively work together to make things better. In short, it's all a matter of shared values.
The Citys not segregated?? What city are you referring to dude. This city was BUILT on segregation.. Block busting??? I agree with the one person.. and I said it before.. the core of the city is being built up but besides the areas we always mention, canton, federal hill, mt vernon, ih, ihe, cbd... most of the city is trash. No disrespect wada but this isnt the Baltimore thats in your pictures on your website anymore. And from Mt vernon to federal hill is NOT the majority of the city. And there is no way on earth this city can be called anything more than 50% integrated when the entire westside is black.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:39 AM   #3615
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Originally Posted by House3780 View Post
The Citys not segregated?? What city are you referring to dude. This city was BUILT on segregation.. Block busting??? I agree with the one person.. and I said it before.. the core of the city is being built up but besides the areas we always mention, canton, federal hill, mt vernon, ih, ihe, cbd... most of the city is trash. No disrespect wada but this isnt the Baltimore thats in your pictures on your website anymore. And from Mt vernon to federal hill is NOT the majority of the city. And there is no way on earth this city can be called anything more than 50% integrated when the entire westside is black.
Most of the city trash....hmm..what about Mt Washington,Dickeyville,Chas Village,Roland Park,Homeland ,Wyman Park, Tuscany-Canterbury,Guilford, Ashburton,Upper Park Heights, The HAR-BEL corridor,etc..
Baltimore has more than its share of post industrial dying neighborhoods but it also has many livable areas beyond downtown and the waterfront.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:58 AM   #3616
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Only in Baltimore will the state university have a bigger arena than the state's largest city. Amazing stuff. The inferiority complex and provincialism is hard at work again. If the local leaders don't feel and portray confidence and a little swagger, than why should out of town developers and investors or even the NBA! This is why the Legg tower is still the tallest in the city.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:40 AM   #3617
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This is getting to be annoying. Just build the Tower. Someone made a great point earlier in saying how can you justify building an Arena but it's a problem with the Tower?
just build the tower? are you serious???? this is NOT a question of architecture or traffic. its a question of good, responsible urban design. the WORST thing you can do to an established and succesful neighborhood is seperate it from its defining elements; in this case the waterfront and the existing scale. if you insist on 'just building the tower', go ahead and run a highway through the neighborhood and put the tower in patterson park!

for the record, the placement of an arena in canton would have much better highway access. it would have access served from 3 exits from 95 (keith ave, o'donnell st, and boston street) whereas the icon site would have all traffic funeled onto boston st. alone. THATS the traffic difference between a residential tower and a small/mid sized arena.




i'm constantly amazed at the views put forth by the members of this bbs. here we are... a group of people dedicated to urban development in a prgressive and responsible way. yet when other citizens organize and speak out about a development, their views aren't given the credibility that we give ourselves. isn't it 'ok' that people in canton don't want this development in their neighborhood? don't they get any say in this process as citizens of baltimore? why should the opinions of thousands of people who LIVE in canton be passed over for the desires of developers who don't even live in the city? (marco lives in baltimore county, armando cignareli owns a house in the moorings, but has not moved into it after 2 years; and i believe he's building a house in the county now.) i think its time to look at the big picture.... even if you don't see this as bad overall design, you should at least give the people involved and their opinions the respect you afford yourselves and you own opinions.

a pre-emtive "thanks" for respecting mine!


cheers!!
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:58 AM   #3618
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The Citys not segregated?? What city are you referring to dude. This city was BUILT on segregation.. Block busting??? I agree with the one person.. and I said it before.. the core of the city is being built up but besides the areas we always mention, canton, federal hill, mt vernon, ih, ihe, cbd... most of the city is trash. No disrespect wada but this isnt the Baltimore thats in your pictures on your website anymore. And from Mt vernon to federal hill is NOT the majority of the city. And there is no way on earth this city can be called anything more than 50% integrated when the entire westside is black.
I take much offense to your comment. Why is most of the city (outside of the areas you listed) trash? Granted, there are areas in the city that leave much to the imagination, but there a lot of clean, well-kept, respectable areas in the city that is home to hard working families. The mayor herself lives in the Westside, the Ten Hills area off of Edmondson Avenue (whenever you drive down or up Edmonson Avenue you can see the police car in front of her house), and that neighborhood is beautiful.

I’m from the Westside of the city - raised in the Rognel Heights/ Edmondson Ave / Ten Hills area, and it is not all black. I always see Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, and even some Middle Easterners in the neighborhood. Always. Everyday at around 3:00 you can see black and white kids walking home from St. William of York School, the Catholic school on the corner of Cooks Lane and Edmondson Ave or Thomas Jefferson Elementary School.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:00 AM   #3619
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Baltimore had a NHL and a NBA team and the populace didn't support them. Nothing has changed demographically to suggest the same outcome wouldn't occur. Heck, we barely support a baseball team. If the Ravens have a couple losing seasons the fans will turn their backs on them too.

There was nothing better than a Polack Johnny's hot dog with "the woiks" at 3AM in the morning. 3 of those and I never had to worry about a hangover.
As a previous poster stated, Baltimore never had an NHL team. We did have a WHA (World Hockey Association) team for half a season in the mid-70's. This league eventually merged with the NHL, and had Baltimore had a better arena, might possibly be in the NHL today.

Back in the '60's, the NHL was only 6 teams and Baltimore's Clippers were in the AHL, then the hockey equivalent of triple A baseball. It was a very fine brand of hockey indeed and was fairly well supported. The inadequacies of the Arena were borne out when Baltimore was passed over in the 1st NHL expansion in the late '60's. The hockey press at the time had Baltimore as one of the front-runners for a franchise, and the city actually drew up plans to rip out the stage-end of the arena to replace it with seating, raising the hockey capacity to somewhere around 14,000. That would have been adequate at the time had not about a third of those seats would have been crappy due to the rectangular shape of the place. Pittsburg, also in the AHL, got one of the expansion teams, and that arena, while built at about the same time as the Civic Center, was in the modern oval design and was expanded to accommodate the NHL. It's original capacity was less than the Civic Center's..around 10,500 or so, and is the very arena they are getting ready to replace.

It would be a huge mistake to build a minor arena, as someone put it. We want to be able to attract an NBA, or less likely, an NHL team, if one happens to be floating around. But we need the larger place to attract things like the NCAA regionals, women's finals, and political conventions and big-time concerts. Baltimore is not a "minor league" city.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:47 PM   #3620
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What I can't understand is this. Baltimore and Washington both have baseball and football teams. Both of those sports require batween 40,000 and 80,000 people to fill the seats to keep the teams competitive. All the franchises in both cities are sucessful with regard to money, if NOT records.

Why do the "Experts" think that if the two cities had Basketball teams, that they couldn't fill ONLY 18,000 seats? It just doesn't make sense to me.

The reason Baltimore is "out of the running" for both basketball and hockey, is because there are no groups with deep pockets persuing a team. I'll say it again, if you buy a team, you can move it. The only thing keeping a team in a city is a lease. Leases have ending dates. What we lack are ownership groups.
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