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Old May 15th, 2007, 01:48 PM   #3621
30 Floors Up
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StevenW - quit mourning and start posting! Cheer up - things will get taller. We miss ya buddy.

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Old May 15th, 2007, 02:37 PM   #3622
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Patterson Park sets multiuse project
Area around library to get stores, offices

By Lorraine Mirabella
Sun reporter
Originally published May 15, 2007

The community development group that has renovated nearly 500 homes in Patterson Park over the last decade is embarking on its first mixed-use project, to include offices, shops and housing, in hopes of bringing back an old retail district and increasing the appeal of the Southeast Baltimore neighborhood.

The Patterson Park Community Development Corp. has begun work on the $6.5 million Library Square project, in which the mostly vacant buildings around a four-block triangular area will be transformed by 2009 into 8,000 square feet of shops, 6,000 square feet of offices and up to a dozen market-rate apartments, including four artist residences and studios.

The project will be bordered by Fayette Street, Pulaski Highway, Luzerne Avenue and Curley Street. Library Square will continue to be the home of the neighborhood branch of the Enoch Pratt Free Library. Library Square is the biggest commercial undertaking ever tackled by the Patterson Park development agency, said Ed Rutkowski, executive director. Its past commercial projects have been limited to renovating single buildings that have been leased to businesses.

Rutkowski said that the project was a natural progression of the revival of a neighborhood that had struggled with middle-class flight, crime, drugs and vacant homes. The Patterson Park development agency's success in buying and renovating houses helped to boost home ownership and values, especially as the city's housing market soared in recent years.

"I think that you need a certain level of discretionary income in a neighborhood before commercial can succeed," Rutkowski said. "What we do, it's the same as residential, you want to accelerate it and provide amenities for people moving into the neighborhood and make it more competitive. "

The first of the new businesses, including a barber shop and a laundromat, will open this summer. New office space for the Baltimore Curriculum Project, operator of several charter schools, will be completed by fall.

The Patterson Park group is negotiating with a Mexican restaurant operator and hopes to attract more food establishments, including carry-outs and a bakery, to cater to the urban neighborhood, said Bill Henry, the agency's director of commercial development. Henry said Library Square would include 16 of 27 buildings the agency has acquired. He said the group hopes to make the remaining properties available to private developers to bring in additional businesses.

Plans call for a mix of residential, business and office space. For instance, a row of buildings along Lakewood Avenue would have shops on the first floor, offices on the second and apartments on the third. The group has been able to subsidize some of the cost with $495,000 in federal grants and about $700,000 in state grants.

"Neighborhood revitalization is more than simply restoring rowhouses, and included in that is making sure that services are provided to the community," said Del. Peter A. Hammen, a Baltimore Democrat who is chairman of the development corporation's board. "Commercial revitalization can bring back businesses and services to the area that had left when the community was moving in the wrong direction."
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:39 PM   #3623
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From the water cooler.......

I've yet to hear it first hand and haven't gotten her source but our buiding manager claims that Donald Trump has either purchased or is in the process of acquiring land in port covingtion.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:46 PM   #3624
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today's ruling may be handed down on the ICON, so be on the lookout, everyone!
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Old May 15th, 2007, 03:59 PM   #3625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbalto View Post
From the water cooler.......

I've yet to hear it first hand and haven't gotten her source but our buiding manager claims that Donald Trump has either purchased or is in the process of acquiring land in port covingtion.
"Trump in Baltimore" rumors are hardy perennials, but I'll bite: casino, hotel, and cruise ship terminal on "Harbor West," bay-beeee! He needs something to do now that his show's been (reportedly) cancelled.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:05 PM   #3626
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Originally Posted by jamie_hunt View Post
"Trump in Baltimore" rumors are hardy perennials, but I'll bite: casino, hotel, and cruise ship terminal on "Harbor West," bay-beeee! He needs something to do now that his show's been (reportedly) cancelled.

He's in just about every other top 20 city........maybe our time has come.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:51 PM   #3627
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Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
What I can't understand is this. Baltimore and Washington both have baseball and football teams. Both of those sports require batween 40,000 and 80,000 people to fill the seats to keep the teams competitive. All the franchises in both cities are sucessful with regard to money, if NOT records.

Why do the "Experts" think that if the two cities had Basketball teams, that they couldn't fill ONLY 18,000 seats? It just doesn't make sense to me.

The reason Baltimore is "out of the running" for both basketball and hockey, is because there are no groups with deep pockets persuing a team. I'll say it again, if you buy a team, you can move it. The only thing keeping a team in a city is a lease. Leases have ending dates. What we lack are ownership groups.

Well said.

All those studies that are done are pure bunk IMHO. You cannot tell just from how many people are in a city whether or not they would be able to fill an arena. If it is tennants for the suites, they will come in due time if not immediatly. Besides the people that own all the ravens suites would get thier own as well. Im sure if I tried I could name 20 agencies or people that would be willing to buy a suite for a new arena with an NBA or NHL team. You can pencil in Angelos, Bisciotti, Hale, and the Mayor right now.

The arguement that Baltimore couldnt support a team financially just doesnt make sense to me, this is a basketball town plain and simple. People root for the wizards now and even drive to games from Baltimore despite the fact that the wizards are not going anywhere deep in the playoffs for a while.

Im happy Governor O'Malley atleast thinks we can get a major NBA team in the near future.

Also, think of all the evnts Baltimore has missed out on while not having a sizable arena. Presidential Campaigns and debates, Major Concerts, University of Maryland basketball games(which is significant for the schools local reputation). Highschool Tournaments(we have some of the best high school players in the country in the state of MD, no doubt the arena would fill up for a tournament) World Champion Boxer, Hasim Rahman( we couldve had a hometown heavyweight fight downtown, I dont know when the last time that happened. X games! Im sure I am missing a bunch too, and the powers that be still want to build an undersized arena.

If they stick to this plan, Im not voting for anybody that works with the mayor come next election.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 04:52 PM   #3628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
What I can't understand is this. Baltimore and Washington both have baseball and football teams. Both of those sports require batween 40,000 and 80,000 people to fill the seats to keep the teams competitive. All the franchises in both cities are sucessful with regard to money, if NOT records.

Why do the "Experts" think that if the two cities had Basketball teams, that they couldn't fill ONLY 18,000 seats? It just doesn't make sense to me.

The reason Baltimore is "out of the running" for both basketball and hockey, is because there are no groups with deep pockets persuing a team. I'll say it again, if you buy a team, you can move it. The only thing keeping a team in a city is a lease. Leases have ending dates. What we lack are ownership groups.
I hate to be one of those people that throws out factual statements without evidence, so I will preface this by saying its my impression of the situation. But I do not believe the NBA today is nearly as stable as the NFL. You can argue MLB is not nearly as successful as its been in the past, but the Orioles have a rich history and I don't think many people would consider them a risky investment. The NBA seems like a mess to me today and like someone posted earlier, there is no loyalty except amongst the most stable teams like the Lakers. So talking about the viability of the arena by comparing with MLB and the NBA is not really fair IMO. Although I would love to see a great NBA arena and team in Baltimore, I think we need to appreciate that it is possible that it may not make the most business sense to do so. Also, I would also argue the NHL is on even shakier ground than all of them.
My guess is that Baltimore CAN support an NBA team as well as at least half the cities in the league, but I wonder how financially viable those teams really are? All the movement between cities recently usually indicates financial problems so maybe the city officials just figure that courting an NBA team is a losing proposition and gave up on trying to land a team....
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Old May 15th, 2007, 05:06 PM   #3629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rxsoccer View Post
I hate to be one of those people that throws out factual statements without evidence, so I will preface this by saying its my impression of the situation. But I do not believe the NBA today is nearly as stable as the NFL. You can argue MLB is not nearly as successful as its been in the past, but the Orioles have a rich history and I don't think many people would consider them a risky investment. The NBA seems like a mess to me today and like someone posted earlier, there is no loyalty except amongst the most stable teams like the Lakers. So talking about the viability of the arena by comparing with MLB and the NBA is not really fair IMO. Although I would love to see a great NBA arena and team in Baltimore, I think we need to appreciate that it is possible that it may not make the most business sense to do so. Also, I would also argue the NHL is on even shakier ground than all of them.
My guess is that Baltimore CAN support an NBA team as well as at least half the cities in the league, but I wonder how financially viable those teams really are? All the movement between cities recently usually indicates financial problems so maybe the city officials just figure that courting an NBA team is a losing proposition and gave up on trying to land a team....
i agree. i don't see much of a draw for nba here. we couldn't even support an ABA team when the league was based here! hockey, although having a bit of a history in b-more is lost on the generations that havn't grown up with it. not to mention the nhl is in worse shape than the nba! HOWEVER...i still think its MORE than short sighted to build anything less than a state of the art arena with standard capacities of 18-20k seats.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 05:31 PM   #3630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
What I can't understand is this. Baltimore and Washington both have baseball and football teams. Both of those sports require batween 40,000 and 80,000 people to fill the seats to keep the teams competitive. All the franchises in both cities are sucessful with regard to money, if NOT records.

Why do the "Experts" think that if the two cities had Basketball teams, that they couldn't fill ONLY 18,000 seats? It just doesn't make sense to me.

The reason Baltimore is "out of the running" for both basketball and hockey, is because there are no groups with deep pockets persuing a team. I'll say it again, if you buy a team, you can move it. The only thing keeping a team in a city is a lease. Leases have ending dates. What we lack are ownership groups.
You get it.

First of all, if someone is willing to put a franchise here the short sightedness of an inadequate venue ends that possibility. I don't know how these consultants can state with absolute certainty that the city will never attract a major NBA or NHL franchise. Did they say that when the state was wooing the NFL for a franchise? Did they say that when Washington was vying for another Baseball team in the market? I'd like to know how they made the determination in this matter.

But besides the point, why build an arena that's inadequate the day the politicos show up to turn the first shovel full of dirt? If you are going to build something with 2k less seats than what would be required for a first-rate facility why not go the extra 2k? Irregarless of whether or not Balt gets a major league franchise, wouldn't it still make better sense to at least build a first rate arena? Who knows what the furture will bring? But one thing is for certain if you don't build it right no one will come.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 05:48 PM   #3631
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Quote:
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You get it.


But besides the point, why build an arena that's inadequate the day the politicos show up to turn the first shovel full of dirt? If you are going to build something with 2k less seats than what would be required for a first-rate facility why not go the extra 2k? Irregarless of whether or not Balt gets a major league franchise, wouldn't it still make better sense to at least build a first rate arena? Who knows what the furture will bring? But one thing is for certain if you don't build it right no one will come.
I agree with this 100%. Why not build the extra seats, it can't cost that much more. Does anybody know who we should contact about this. It seems that if they proceed with this "2nd rate arena" it will be a major F-Up.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 05:51 PM   #3632
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First of all, if someone is willing to put a franchise here the short sightedness of an inadequate venue ends that possibility.
Right.

The arena will probably end up being NBA-ready. No sense broadcasting that right now, though, since Baltimore would just end up being a pawn in some restless owner's relocation derby. We had enough of that with the NFL, no?

Anyway (unsubstantiated metaphor alert!): like artists reclaiming a down-at-the-heels neighborhood only to be unable to afford rents when the neighborhood gentrifies, the Verizon Center in DC has spurred a revival that makes the land it sits on too valuable for an arena. Ironic, yes?
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Old May 15th, 2007, 06:09 PM   #3633
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Anybody else find this portion of today's Sun article on the new arena weird?

"Advocates for downtown, including the Downtown Partnership and Westside Renaissance, want the arena to stay downtown. Hale, who is the chairman and chief executive officer of 1st Mariner Bank and bought the arena's naming rights four years ago, has called that idea "laughable."

He also has said that it would be a mistake to replace the arena with another one too small for National Hockey League or National Basketball Association games. Hale did not return phone messages yesterday."


I thought Hale was the one who wanted to build a 12,000-15,000 seat arena which would most definitely NOT hold an NBA or NHL team. So why does this say that he thinks it would be a mistake to build too small for either of these teams?

Misquoted or mixed messages?
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Old May 15th, 2007, 06:12 PM   #3634
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Right.

The arena will probably end up being NBA-ready. No sense broadcasting that right now, though, since Baltimore would just end up being a pawn in some restless owner's relocation derby. We had enough of that with the NFL, no?
I don't understand why Baltimore is always marked as "Second Rate" when it comes to things such as getting a pro Sports franchise. Hello People!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Baltimore is part of the forth biggest media market in the country. I remember in 1995 when we got the Cleveland Browns. The first thing everyone said was that the Balt/DC area coudn't support two NFL teams. The same thing was said when the Montreal Expos moved to Washington, D.C. We deserve a team and an Arena that's up to par with NBA standards. Anything less would be an absolute waste of money.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 06:29 PM   #3635
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Comparing the NfL to the NBA isn't really that good of an idea. Its easier to sell out 8 games to 70k people than it is to sell out 41 games to 19k.

That said, Baltimore can support an NBA team just as much as Charlotte, Minneapolis, Indy, Orlando, Memphis, Portland, San Antonio etc,.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 07:04 PM   #3636
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Quote:
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Comparing the NfL to the NBA isn't really that good of an idea. Its easier to sell out 8 games to 70k people than it is to sell out 41 games to 19k.

That said, Baltimore can support an NBA team just as much as Charlotte, Minneapolis, Indy, Orlando, Memphis, Portland, San Antonio etc,.
....exactly. and we're larger than MOST of these markets.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #3637
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I'd support a Baltimore team. They should definitely have a new arena somewhere near the Harbor, that would be a sick location.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:03 PM   #3638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgunna View Post
Comparing the NfL to the NBA isn't really that good of an idea. Its easier to sell out 8 games to 70k people than it is to sell out 41 games to 19k.

That said, Baltimore can support an NBA team just as much as Charlotte, Minneapolis, Indy, Orlando, Memphis, Portland, San Antonio etc,.
Baltimore as it sits (don't worry about DC) is a 2 sport city...possibly a 3. Except for Minneapolis, Indy is a 2 sport city and the rest are 1 sport cities so thats not a fair comparison. If you look at 3 and 4 sport cities, they tend to be much bigger, or the only large city within a few hundred miles. (Pitt, Minny, Atlanta, Seatle), If we didn't have the O's or Ravens I'd say we would absolutely support an NBA team and we'd be fighting tooth and nail for one. But with those teams already here, the competition would be tough. Would it make it? Poss. Is it worth the risk for the NBA with the Wizard's 40 mins down the road? Nope. While I can't predict 15 or 20 years in the future, I wouldn't say we see a team for the next 10 years.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:04 PM   #3639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore View Post
I don't understand why Baltimore is always marked as "Second Rate" when it comes to things such as getting a pro Sports franchise. Hello People!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Baltimore is part of the forth biggest media market in the country. I remember in 1995 when we got the Cleveland Browns. The first thing everyone said was that the Balt/DC area coudn't support two NFL teams. The same thing was said when the Montreal Expos moved to Washington, D.C. We deserve a team and an Arena that's up to par with NBA standards. Anything less would be an absolute waste of money.
I'm sure I'm alone in this, but I'll say it anyhow... Why does everyone seem to judge our "value" or "worth" as a city by surrogate markers such as having an NBA or NHL team. Memphis is not better than baltimore because it has an NBA team; I don't see the connection at all. Maybe its because I grew up in southern california and saw 2 NFL teams leave us and never heard anybody say this was a reflection on how good/bad LA was. Think about it...Los Angeles for God's sake does not have an NFL team!!!... how is that possible?!?! But you know what, it is possible and it doesn't reflect one bit to the self-worth of the people living there. Why do we speak of inferiority complexes when Baltimore doesn't have an NBA team??? I'm okay with being upset with not building a larger arena...lots of legitimate sounding arguments to add the extra few seats for probably a marginal cost, just don't bother with the whole "we deserve a team" stuff because we are better than city, "x, y, and z". Those cities may all be losing money on the concessions they made to have those franchises for all we know....
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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:13 PM   #3640
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Also...

If you look at it this way,

Balt/Wash is tied for second for the most major professional teams of any population area so we really aren't in the bad of shape...

NY: 9
Balt/Wsh 6
Bay Area 6
LA 6
Chicago 5
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