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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:18 PM   #3641
cgunna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbbfm View Post
Baltimore as it sits (don't worry about DC) is a 2 sport city...possibly a 3. Except for Minneapolis, Indy is a 2 sport city and the rest are 1 sport cities so thats not a fair comparison. If you look at 3 and 4 sport cities, they tend to be much bigger, or the only large city within a few hundred miles. (Pitt, Minny, Atlanta, Seatle), If we didn't have the O's or Ravens I'd say we would absolutely support an NBA team and we'd be fighting tooth and nail for one. But with those teams already here, the competition would be tough. Would it make it? Poss. Is it worth the risk for the NBA with the Wizard's 40 mins down the road? Nope. While I can't predict 15 or 20 years in the future, I wouldn't say we see a team for the next 10 years.
Thats largely where your argument falls down...As much as some posters dislike it, its pretty much impossible to 'not worry about DC.' As a result, the market here is unique to the others that you mentioned. There is an assload of people in what would be a 40 mile radius of downtown Baltimore where the arena would be located. That and I am not really sure why the Wizards keep getting mentioned. How many folks actually believe that they have a strong fanbase in Baltimore?

Charlotte isn't a one sport city. The Panthers play there. Most of the fanbase is there. If they were going to be attributed to a city, it would be Charlotte. Sort of like the Patriots and Boston.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:30 PM   #3642
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The problem with hockey is that its following is rather narrow. The fans are rabid about the sport in Canada and maybe places like Minnesota. But in the majority of the US it just barely merits "major league" attention. It's more on the order of Arena Football or indoor soccer. There's an old saying: "only hockey fans watch hockey". The US TV ratings for hockey are almost microscopic.

Basketball, on the other hand, would be much more viable. The new arena must be large enough to attract a relocating NBA franchise as well as NCAA events.
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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:39 PM   #3643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rxsoccer View Post
Why does everyone seem to judge our "value" or "worth" as a city by surrogate markers such as having an NBA or NHL team.
Eh. Value, shmalue.

The NBA's a lot of fun, but it would be more fun with a hometown rooting interest and a Calatrava-designed arena (click on 'recent projects' then 'Olympic Sports Complex in Athens') in Harbor West, visible from I-95.

Not asking for much ...
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Old May 15th, 2007, 08:55 PM   #3644
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Looks as though work is about to begin on the Hotel Indigo at Calvert and Redwood Streets (to be constructed inside the Kyser Building). It is scheduled to open during the 1st quarter of 2008.

Also, the Staybridge Hotel in the Jefferson Building will be opening during the 4th quarter of this year.

http://www.marshallhotels.com/properties.htm

Redwood and Calvert Streets will be looking kind of nice once this project is completed. Calvert is getting a streetscape make over and the people staying in the hotel will liven up those new sidewalks!
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:17 PM   #3645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Looks as though work is about to begin on the Hotel Indigo at Calvert and Redwood Streets (to be constructed inside the Kyser Building). It is scheduled to open during the 1st quarter of 2008.
Thats really interesting... that corner of calvert and redwood will then have the Hampton Inn, Springhill Suites by Marriott (active construction right now) and this Hotel Indigo. The fourth corner of that block is the Redwood Trust which is for sale/lease as a new nightclub. Of course, further west on redwood adjacent to the Hampton Inn is the Residence Inn by Marriott with the grand "clark parking lot" across the street and adjacent to the springhill suites. That little stretch of Redwood can add quite a bit of density. Not to mention the next block ends Mechanic site and the redwood condo conversion/addition that I believe was switched to a hotel plan...
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Old May 15th, 2007, 10:25 PM   #3646
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Redwood Street is turning into a very cool,historic "Hotel Row"
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Old May 15th, 2007, 11:54 PM   #3647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgunna View Post
Thats largely where your argument falls down...As much as some posters dislike it, its pretty much impossible to 'not worry about DC.' As a result, the market here is unique to the others that you mentioned. There is an assload of people in what would be a 40 mile radius of downtown Baltimore where the arena would be located. That and I am not really sure why the Wizards keep getting mentioned. How many folks actually believe that they have a strong fanbase in Baltimore?

Charlotte isn't a one sport city. The Panthers play there. Most of the fanbase is there. If they were going to be attributed to a city, it would be Charlotte. Sort of like the Patriots and Boston.
Yes...I realized as soon as I sent it that Charlotte is a two sport city. But its had a tough enough time supporting both sports. The Panthers don't sell out and they lost the hornets.

And yes, there is an assload of people within a 40 mile radius of downtown b'more. But 40 miles includes DC. The NBA as a rule shy's away from forcing its teams to compete against one another. The NBA really thrives in places where its the only game in town. The NBA seems to have a bad habit of getting lost in the mix, and the NBA would be scared of putting one here.
Like I said before, I believe B'more could support an NBA team, I just don't think it will get one anytime soon, nor is it a severe detriment to the city that we don't, or should it have any bearing on why we need a 19K-20K seat arena.

And yes, we do have a unique market, thats why we have 6 major league teams within the market.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 12:21 AM   #3648
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I've never really considered Baltimore to be a soccer town, and I guess no American city really is, save maybe LA, but Baltimore might do well to try to attract an MLS team rather than a NBA or NHL team. Hale might present some opposition to the idea, but a market with a shaky past such as Baltimore's might gain more from investing in a league that is on the up-and-up rather than a league that is stagnant (NBA) or declining (NHL). In the wake of the 2006 World Cup, which to me seemed to draw more attention in the United States than any previous Cup, and the acquisition of soccer's most famous player by LA, the MLS has been seeing skyrocketing attendance.
We already have the facilities, the Blast have proven that there are soccer fans here, and although we're just a stones throw from MLS's most decorated team, a Baltimore franchise might be able to draw fans from as far away as Philadelphia, since they are also without a team.
I still say build a larger arena since it's certainly possible to do and Baltimore shouldn't short-change itself, but as far as sports franchises go, Baltimore might be better off pursuring an MLS squad than an NBA or NHL team at the moment. In reality though, I'll be content with any and all of them
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Old May 16th, 2007, 01:25 AM   #3649
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More from Harbor East/Point

Please see responses below:


From: [mailto:fanofterps
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:46 PM
To: Struever
Subject: Update

Hi,

Always like you updates. I was wondering about the following:


1. When will Arhaus, Landmark, the condo's, and Hilton's open in the Vue. Will we also get a CVS, Urban Chic, and ice cream store,etc? Have there been any new leases signed? Office building just started occupancy this week, all will be complete by early fall this year. Condos start settling in July and should be complete by year end. There is a CVS across from Whole Foods, ice cream next to the theater entrance.

2. When will Harbor Point start? Is the plan still for over 300 apartments/condo's/retail and a office building? Harbor Point will likely start between August and September. Plan is still the same.

3. Do you plan on pursuing a Filene's type store(30,000 sq ft department store) for Harbor East/Point. I wonder if a Saks Basement would work? Seems like Baltimore could still use some more mini specialty/department stores. Do not have firm plan for retail at Harbor Point yet.

4. Will the Rec Pier hotel start this year? Not likely. Probably spring 2008.

5. I assume the first phase of Harbor Point and Legg Mason/Four Seasons project is it for 2007/2008? Delivery of Legg Mason is summer 2009. Four Seasons will open spring 2010. Harbor point will begin occupancy 24 months from construction start.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 02:56 AM   #3650
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Canton tower project nixed
Residents opposed plans to build 240-foot-tall Icon
DORI BERMAN
Daily Record Business Writer
May 15, 2007 5:06 PM
The controversial Icon tower project was quashed Tuesday by a City Council committee, fulfilling the wishes of Canton community activists who had concerns over the project’s size.

Timonium-based developer Cignal Corp. had proposed in 2005 a tower to include residential and retail space and a hotel for a site now occupied by a parking lot in the Lighthouse Point complex on Boston Street. But even after nixing the hotel and introducing a pared-down project in January, the council’s Land Use and Transportation Committee voted unanimously against a height exception and zoning amendment that would have allowed the project to move forward.

“For three years, this is the only project in Southeast Baltimore that we have not been able to work out an agreement on, and that’s because the developer has insisted that the project has to be a certain height,” said Councilman James Kraft, who represents Canton and opposed the project because of community concerns.

Had it gained approval, the tower would have risen to 240 feet on the site of the parking lot, which is connected to a retail center anchored by Blockbuster Video. One of the bills killed would have created an exception to the current zoning ordinance for the area, which restricts new buildings to 72 feet.

Kraft said community residents are open to development on the site, which neighbors the Tindeco Wharf apartment complex.

“We’ve always believed that there would be some development on this site. We just want it developed in partnership,” he said.

Cignal representatives said they would issue a statement later Tuesday but they did not respond to telephone calls or e-mails by press time.

The development plan for Lighthouse Point was originally proposed in the 1980s, and it did not include the Icon tower. The site currently features residential units, office and retail space and a marina. The waterfront development is accessed from Boston Street, which community activists argue is already congested with traffic to and from the popular, posh Canton waterfront area.

In January, Cignal gained Planning Commission approval for the building after modifying the proposal, which had originally included a 150-room hotel and would have risen to 295 feet and 30 stories. After changes to the plan, the 23-story tower would have featured only retail space and condominiums.

Mayor Sheila Dixon and Council President Stephanie Rawlings-Blake opposed the project.

In a news release issued Monday evening, Rawlings-Blake said the process had “been handled poorly from the beginning” and that the vote to kill the project would “wipe the slate clean.”

“Any future project must be developed together with the community, in an open and transparent process,” the statement said.




As a resident of Canton and in spite of my affinity for hi rises I have to say I am glad about this.Simply was way out of scale with that part of Canton.Ed Hale can build as high as he wants on Clinton St but that location is just wrong for a high rise. The Ancorage Tower is bad enough.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:15 PM   #3651
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Very disappointing news about the Icon. This sets a bad precedent where a community can just kill any project because they don't like it.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:51 PM   #3652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeclue View Post
Very disappointing news about the Icon. This sets a bad precedent where a community can just kill any project because they don't like it.
You do understand that thats the American Way? Thats sorta what this whole democracy thing is all about.

Personally, I like the tower. I do not like the tower in that location.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 03:53 PM   #3653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeclue View Post
Very disappointing news about the Icon. This sets a bad precedent where a community can just kill any project because they don't like it.
not at all. what it does is set a precedent saying that a developer can't just come in and change the zoneing rules for a piece of property to suit himself. zoneing is in place for a reason. by the way...why shouldn't the community have an input on what affects them?

see my post a few pages back on this issue...post #3617
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Old May 16th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #3654
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I think I might not have explained myself well enough. It's vital to have community input, but the problem is that this community is set against everything in that location. Nothing would be ok by them. They are halting progress, and this could affect developers in the future and their motivation to do things in Baltimore.

They would rather that just sit there as a parking lot so there are less traffic problems. I'm not advocating creating gridlock, but this is a city. If people have a problem with a little traffic than they can move to Cumberland because they are obviously living in the wrong place.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 05:20 PM   #3655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quabex View Post
not at all. what it does is set a precedent saying that a developer can't just come in and change the zoneing rules for a piece of property to suit himself. zoneing is in place for a reason. by the way...why shouldn't the community have an input on what affects them?

see my post a few pages back on this issue...post #3617
While I like to see development, I agree that when a zoning change is proposed, the community has the right to decide to accept it or not. Zoning is a law and the law governs our activities. So that is why drawn out community approval is a necessary process with regard to democracy. But the good of the many needs to outweigh the good of the few. I am sure the city wanted more tax revenue, but the community won’t see a dime of that revenue. It’s going to go off to be spent in other areas of the city where police, schools etc. need money. To me the city needs to start drawing up tax disctrict lines that funnel a portion of the areas that zoning changes are proposed to make sure that a certain percentage of those dollars are diverted to the neighborhoods who are affected by the change. That will help sell the community on some of these contentious projects if they know they will be getting streetscaping, tree plantings, increased police presence, etc. Its also help with the theme I believe so strongly in which is invest in the areas that are doing well so that private dollars follow these areas and help push out the boundaries of the good parts of the city.

Image in the canton/patterson park area if the icon incrased tax revene resulted in 4 new police offices, foot patrol men dedicated for that area. Safe = more people moving in and staying = improved city bit by bit. The benefits of canton/patterson park will see from those 4 officers will be so much more than if they were put on mcollough street where the ak-47’s just went off. build piece by piece.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #3656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdeclue View Post
I think I might not have explained myself well enough. It's vital to have community input, but the problem is that this community is set against everything in that location. Nothing would be ok by them. They are halting progress, and this could affect developers in the future and their motivation to do things in Baltimore.

They would rather that just sit there as a parking lot so there are less traffic problems. I'm not advocating creating gridlock, but this is a city. If people have a problem with a little traffic than they can move to Cumberland because they are obviously living in the wrong place.
i don't see that as the case. as a canton resident, i've been to the meetings and i've talked to my neighbors about this in depth. its not that we're against any development on the site, we're against THAT PARTICULAR develoment on the site. you didn't hear any outcry against the north shore development or the moorings development or even the conversion of the lighthouse point boat storage into condo's. well...there was a bit of an outcry regarding north shore because they wanted to build too high there also. but cignal and the community worked it out. this time cignal wanted to build out of scale with the surrounding neighborhood and in the process, change it forever. we felt that it would be detrimental to our investment in the neighborhood and so we stood up against it. if you read the posts of those who oppose the tower, you'll find a commonality that although we oppose it, we like the arcitechture of the tower itself. but arcitecture and development are different things, and just because its a good building doesn't mean it should be placed wherever the developer wants it to go. it certainly doesn't mean the developer should be granted changes in law to build it without going through the normal processes of legal change.

as for traffic concearns, they're real concearns. and they have been for a long time. i-95 has 4 exits into that part of the city (eastern ave, odonnel st., boston st., and keith ave.) easterna avenue bottlenecks at greektown and is a slow go at best through highlandtown. o'donnel and keith ave empty onto boston street and the traffic is significant!
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Old May 16th, 2007, 06:19 PM   #3657
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What we had there was a "perfect storm" conducive to anti development. We had an arrogant developer with his hired gun attorneys,lobbyists and Pr firm in tow, a unified opposition and an election coming up. (and a City Council who put themselves between a rock and a hard place)
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Old May 16th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #3658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgunna View Post
You do understand that thats the American Way? Thats sorta what this whole democracy thing is all about.

Personally, I like the tower. I do not like the tower in that location.
now that i think about it, also as a former canton resident, i agree. i'm glad it didn't get built. i don't think that location wouldn't have served the people of canton no justice.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 07:44 PM   #3659
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City sells American Brewery site for $5,000
Local developer acquires property, plans to restore building
By John Fritze
Sun Reporter
Originally published May 16, 2007, 12:26 PM EDT
Baltimore officials sold the American Brewery site in East Baltimore this morning for $5,000 to a group of developers who hope the redevelopment will spark a revival in the neighborhood.

The city's Board of Estimates voted unanimously to sell the two-acre site to a development team that includes prominent local developer Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse to restore the building as the Baltimore headquarters of Humanim, a statewide nonprofit social services agency based in Columbia.

The blocks around the brewery building -- a dominating structure that has been vacant since the early 1970s -- were the subject of a series in The Sun last year that described life in a community that had lost 60 percent of its population and had been largely bypassed in efforts at renewal.

The city has owned the brewery building for 30 years. The project is expected to break ground this summer.

"I think the American Brewery project is a historic opportunity for an infusion of capital in that neighborhood," said the city's housing commissioner, Paul T. Graziano. "There will be a major transformation of that site. It is an indication of commitment to this neighborhood."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...home-headlines
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Old May 16th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #3660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
What we had there was a "perfect storm" conducive to anti development. We had an arrogant developer with his hired gun attorneys,lobbyists and Pr firm in tow, a unified opposition and an election coming up. (and a City Council who put themselves between a rock and a hard place)
Dave, you nailed it.

Anyone care to speculate about what'll happen next?
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