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Old May 20th, 2007, 04:52 AM   #3721
fanofterps
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I would like to see more cops on the street

Reducing crime in Balto City, specifically murders maybe the key in getting Westport, Greektown and all the 50-60 towers built.

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Originally Posted by southbalto View Post
Didn't MOM now Gov OM talk up having state police deployed here in the city? what ever came of that?
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Old May 20th, 2007, 07:39 AM   #3722
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GSOL,
"there is no justification for pulling a gun on anyone"
"I think this would cause the predator to think twice before using a gun"

What!!! So pulling out my 9mm after someone breaks into my house and comes after me isn't justified!!!!?

I think predators would think twice if the common folks were allowed to be armed. That's not the case in NY and MD. 2 states with high crime.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 07:52 AM   #3723
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Ok so lets just have a shoot-em up at ok corrall. Just pull out your guns and fire. I say that sarcastically. This is not an acceptable way for civilized people to live. We need to do better than that.

Last edited by Gsol; May 20th, 2007 at 08:00 AM.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 02:57 PM   #3724
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Reasonable people - the law abiders, don't have "shoot-em ups". They use their guns for protection. You live in a pretent world pal. You must like the criminals having the upper hand huh? So you'd rather give in to the thugs than protect your family or even have an even chance? No symbalistic gun law will protect anyone. None. These anti-common sense laws that you love only benefit the bad guys. The only thing that will deter somone from harming me is knowing the law allows me to carry or seeing my weapon on my hip.

Confiscating law abiders' gun hasn't helped in Australia or England where home invasions and murders have doubled. Just like here, criminals are criminals because they don't obey laws. Don't you get that?

This isn't fantasy land. Stop protecting the criminals.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 05:06 PM   #3725
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Im anti guns too. If there werent a market for guns, it would be much less likely that illegal guns would be on the street. It would take a while to clean the guns already there off of them but at least for every gun you confiscate, 3 more wouldnt be getting back there. sure maybe 1 might get through, but thats better than 3. and tougher punishments for gun offenders would discourage their use for most people.

People should be able to protect their families, but they stand a greater chance of facing a threat outside their homes or even in their kids school. Being that you and your kids cant carry your guns in either place, that argument doesnt hold much weight.

I say the increased risk of danger you bring to yourself, your loved ones and everyone else makes the right to bare arms not worth it. Ask yourself this.. what happens more.. someone getting murdered, some kid bringing a gun to school, someone accidently shooting themselves or a loved one, or someone successfully fighting off a criminal because they owned a gun (also throw in their knowing a victim and someone who saved him/herself because its not just you, its your loved ones too, and you should be thinking about people you dont know also). Im willing to bet, ownership of a gun successfully defending someone is significantly insignificant versus the others making it not worth it to have the right to own a gun.

That amendment in the constiution is quite archaic (america doesnt really have to raise a militia last minute anymore to defend its shores from the brits.. and i dont think a gun is gonna help you from terrorists) and doesnt represent what a modern society should feel about weapons that can kill people.

It really eats me up when a person says "I am a law abiding citizen. I should be able to own a gun." You're missing the whole point.. its not that we doubt that you would not use your gun to harm another person. Its having a market for guns increases the chances for illegal guns on the street.

I ask every gun toting person.. is your right to bare arms worth the risk to someone elses life.

And as for the comment about doubling crime in Australia and whereever else.. you are way off. You are taking one view of a statistic and manipulating it for your own argument. To say "doubling" is trying to give a great quality to something. But you are nonetheless comparing apples and oranges when TRYING to compare australia and the US's murder rates and are giving "doubling" more significance than what it deserves.

Lets say the US's per capita murder rate is 20, and australias is 2. Both increase two the next year to 22 and 4. Sure while the US's increased 10 percent and Australias "doubled" are you going to just take that "doubled" for what it is and say the Australia is not better off and guns are therefore ok??? Thats completely assenine.

Last edited by House3780; May 20th, 2007 at 06:47 PM.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 05:31 PM   #3726
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Gun control is a sticky wicket for sure, but I definitely have to agree with Gsol on this one. I'm all for outlawing gun ownership. The statistics out there are so all over the place that it's hard to say just how effective guns are as a means of crime prevention. On the one hand, you have gun advocates who produce studies, like often cited one out of Florida State that claims there are 2.5 million guns defenses each year in America. That is one every 13 seconds. That means every thirteen seconds somewhere in the United States, a person who have been killed but for their use of a firearm. To me, that statistic seems a little inflated when compared to the fact that there were just over 15,000 murders that same year. If the former statistic is true, then it would hold that when a person is faced with imminent death from another, he/she is 167 times more likely to thwart the attack with a hand gun then be killed. Again, this seems inflated when you consider that only 31 percent of American adults owned firearms that year.

On the other hand, you have any number of other surveys that will tell you that a gun is far more likely to be used accidentally against another member of a household than on a criminal. I wouldn't be surprised if this is true, but my guess would be that most guns just end up sitting in their draws and are never used at all.

As far as gun ownership goes as a deterent for violent crime, it is certainly not working. Half of all households in America already own a gun, and look at where crime is. Are you prepared to suggest that 50% is not enough? Would 75% do the trick? Should we require that everyone carry a gun?

Here in Florida, last year ex-Gov. Bush signed into law an act that allows anyone to shoot another if he/she feels threatened. It doesn't even have to be a home invasion, just so long as the "victim" feels threatened by another, he is within the law to shoot him. This is the same kind of thinking that allowed a jury to acquit Bernard Goetz for self-defense when he shot four children execution style in a New York subway.

We can save a gun debate for another day or thread, but I think there are certain times when having a gun will prevent further crime. But when you look at Baltimore as a whole, and the current place and time in which the city sits, I don't think arming city residents, who are already on edge about high crime, will do anything more than cause an increase in accidental homicides. I think Baltimore would be better served if guns were outlawed and the police pushed really hard to get as many firearms off the streets as possible. You'll never get them all, but I think a the harm done by gun-carrying 13 year old kid with a violent temper and no education is going to outweigh the good done by any responsible, upstanding citizen who carries a gun.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 05:40 PM   #3727
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We all know that banning guns or decriminalizing drugs aint gonna happen.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 05:50 PM   #3728
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Maybe not in the next few years, but the political arena can change quickly once the ball gets rolling. It could happen in 15-20 years maybe.

Speaking of long shot, pie-in-the-sky topics, what does everyone think of the new Westport renderings?

Not too bad, I must say. I'm excited. Although it appears that now that we have the renderings in clearer quality what we thought was a second 500+ foot tower was actually not much at all.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 07:51 PM   #3729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k25150 View Post
Reasonable people - the law abiders, don't have "shoot-em ups". They use their guns for protection. You live in a pretent world pal. You must like the criminals having the upper hand huh? So you'd rather give in to the thugs than protect your family or even have an even chance? No symbalistic gun law will protect anyone. None. These anti-common sense laws that you love only benefit the bad guys. The only thing that will deter somone from harming me is knowing the law allows me to carry or seeing my weapon on my hip.

Confiscating law abiders' gun hasn't helped in Australia or England where home invasions and murders have doubled. Just like here, criminals are criminals because they don't obey laws. Don't you get that?

This isn't fantasy land. Stop protecting the criminals.
this is a political discussion, and I try to avoid them on this forum. However, that being said, I think you could tone down the rhetoric a bit.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 08:01 PM   #3730
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Quote:
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Also in the SUN I recently read of a women shot through the front door of her home in the area around Camden Yards. These people have already decided to flee the city.
This woman was a University of MD pharmacy student. She answered knocks at her door to be welcomed by two teenage kids with handguns pointed at her. When she immediately slammed the door, they shot rounds into both of her legs. She lived west of MLK by the hopsitals. This sent shockwaves through the whole UMD medical system and has even prompted some students to transfer.

One first year dental student moved to Baltimore from Ft. Lauderdale last September. During the first week, her house was broken into while she was at orientation for school. During the second week, her car broke down by the Staples near Camden Yards. Someone pulled over to "help" her and then threw her to the ground, kicked her in the face and robbed her blind. She, of course, had her fill of the city and proceeded to transfer schools and move elsewhere.

My middle eastern friend's father moved to Baltimore from NYC to buy some gas stations. He has been robbed multiple times. The last one consisted of him being smashed by an old car going full speed, dragged out of his car, beaten and robbed. They knew he was taking deposits to the bank and got away with tons of cash. The police was almost unwilling to file a report.

I find it laugable when people remark on Baltimore as being a reasonable city to move to. Friends that visit me here are shocked and appalled by the areas they see with me giving them a nice tour of the city. I love this city for all it's great things, but if we ever want to get over our "second tier city status" and "inferiority complex", we need to stop being second tier and inferior in overall safety.

The quality of life as an urban dweller in this city is severly hampered by out of control crime and ineffective policing. This rant is brought to you by love for my city and hope for the better.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 09:04 PM   #3731
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I agree to most of your comments except

that people who have cash to pay from the 400's and up in the city do not have these issues. They are usually in secure condo buldings and have underground parking. If you can only afford is homes in the 200k and 300k range, you are at more risk . You are talking about students likely in this range.

Baltimore is going to need a tough Mayor on crime to build all the proposed projects which must number7,000 units. A 25% to 30% reduction in crime would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 21230 View Post
This woman was a University of MD pharmacy student. She answered knocks at her door to be welcomed by two teenage kids with handguns pointed at her. When she immediately slammed the door, they shot rounds into both of her legs. She lived west of MLK by the hopsitals. This sent shockwaves through the whole UMD medical system and has even prompted some students to transfer.

One first year dental student moved to Baltimore from Ft. Lauderdale last September. During the first week, her house was broken into while she was at orientation for school. During the second week, her car broke down by the Staples near Camden Yards. Someone pulled over to "help" her and then threw her to the ground, kicked her in the face and robbed her blind. She, of course, had her fill of the city and proceeded to transfer schools and move elsewhere.

My middle eastern friend's father moved to Baltimore from NYC to buy some gas stations. He has been robbed multiple times. The last one consisted of him being smashed by an old car going full speed, dragged out of his car, beaten and robbed. They knew he was taking deposits to the bank and got away with tons of cash. The police was almost unwilling to file a report.

I find it laugable when people remark on Baltimore as being a reasonable city to move to. Friends that visit me here are shocked and appalled by the areas they see with me giving them a nice tour of the city. I love this city for all it's great things, but if we ever want to get over our "second tier city status" and "inferiority complex", we need to stop being second tier and inferior in overall safety.

The quality of life as an urban dweller in this city is severly hampered by out of control crime and ineffective policing. This rant is brought to you by love for my city and hope for the better.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 09:31 PM   #3732
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New rendering of Westport doesn't show much difference except it does make it clear it appears to be only one very large tower surrounded by lots of smaller buildings. That might look kinda weird. I'd like to see a few towers over that way.

As far as guns go, it's a tough call. Gun control is great in theory, take all the guns off the street, no one kills anyone. The problem is that criminals still find ways to get guns and kill people, leaving the regular Joe helpless to defend himself.

I wouldn't mind seeing a concealed weapon law where you can carry a gun on you. I certainly would do it. It's not so much the fact you are going to pull it out and shoot someone as it is that the criminal knows that there is probably a 50-50 chance you are armed and could defend yourself. It makes the criminal really think twice about what he (or she haha) is about to do.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 09:33 PM   #3733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanofterps View Post
that people who have cash to pay from the 400's and up in the city do not have these issues. They are usually in secure condo buldings and have underground parking. If you can only afford is homes in the 200k and 300k range, you are at more risk . You are talking about students likely in this range.

Baltimore is going to need a tough Mayor on crime to build all the proposed projects which must number7,000 units. A 25% to 30% reduction in crime would help.
I agree that something needs to be done, but I don't think the reason we are a second-tier city is crime alone. Otherwise, Philly wouldn't be considered great and neither would DC.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 09:55 PM   #3734
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I live in the city and I go all over the city and can honestly say that I have never felt unsafe. Look at the City Paper crime map. 99% of the murders occur in just 2 neighborhoods. Just stay out of those 2 and everything wiill be okay.
Gangs Shmangs! How do you think Baltimore got the nickname "Mobtown" anyway? The movie the "Gangs of New York" should have been more correctly entitled "Gangs of Baltimore" All the gangs in the movie and even Bill the Butcher himself were from Baltimore.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 10:59 PM   #3735
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We need more money for better policing and prosecuting.

Period. Money is the overwhelming factor for the status quo and the changes that need to be made.

Nate
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Old May 21st, 2007, 04:43 AM   #3736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21230 View Post
One first year dental student moved to Baltimore from Ft. Lauderdale last September. During the first week, her house was broken into while she was at orientation for school. During the second week, her car broke down by the Staples near Camden Yards. Someone pulled over to "help" her and then threw her to the ground, kicked her in the face and robbed her blind. She, of course, had her fill of the city and proceeded to transfer schools and move elsewhere.
This happened to one of my friends as well. She transferred from from UMB to Temple University. I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with North Philly, but that area around Temple is hell in a basket. Very bad neighborhood. So, in reality, if my friend made the decision to change schools because of the "neighborhood", it doesn't exactly sound like she made a vertical move up.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 04:52 AM   #3737
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A Little Perspective

Total Violent Crimes 1993 - ~22,000
Total Violent Crimes 2005 - ~11,000

Those of us who stuck out the nineties in Baltimore should get a gold sticker on our tax bill or something!
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Old May 21st, 2007, 05:17 AM   #3738
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You anti-gun people really do live in make-believe world. It's not the guns people. It's the iditos who use them. Let's ban cars too. They kill more people than guns. Let's also ban swimming pools because more people die from drowning than guns.

And Peter, what the heck are you talking about!! "You'll never get them all, but I think a the harm done by gun-carrying 13 year old kid with a violent temper and no education is going to outweigh the good done by any responsible, upstanding citizen who carries a gun".

That 13 year old is the responsibility of his parents - if they even exist. He's destined for a life of crime. He'll be in jail soon where he belongs. No one outweighs the safety and protection of my family and me. The fact that you even made such an absurd statement is astonishing.

I love how you people blame objects instead of the lawless punks or their parents or lack of parenting. Maybe if more people actually tried to to tackle the real problems instead of taking away honest people's rights, these 13 year olds wouldn't be on the street carrying. The black family is extinct and the violent anti-society black/urban culture is entrenched and irreversable.These are the problems. Not the guns.

And Getz was attacked by a bunch of thugs. I just love how you protect them by calling them children. As if they were simply on their way home from school and doing their homework on the subway. Amazing.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 05:36 AM   #3739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k25150 View Post
You anti-gun people really do live in make-believe world. It's not the guns people. It's the iditos who use them. Let's ban cars too. They kill more people than guns. Let's also ban swimming pools because more people die from drowning than guns.

And Peter, what the heck are you talking about!! "You'll never get them all, but I think a the harm done by gun-carrying 13 year old kid with a violent temper and no education is going to outweigh the good done by any responsible, upstanding citizen who carries a gun".

That 13 year old is the responsibility of his parents - if they even exist. He's destined for a life of crime. He'll be in jail soon where he belongs. No one outweighs the safety and protection of my family and me. The fact that you even made such an absurd statement is astonishing.

I love how you people blame objects instead of the lawless punks or their parents or lack of parenting. Maybe if more people actually tried to to tackle the real problems instead of taking away honest people's rights, these 13 year olds wouldn't be on the street carrying. The black family is extinct and the violent anti-society black/urban culture is entrenched and irreversable.These are the problems. Not the guns.

And Getz was attacked by a bunch of thugs. I just love how you protect them by calling them children. As if they were simply on their way home from school and doing their homework on the subway. Amazing.

You are just repeating the NRA playbook.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 05:43 AM   #3740
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New rendering of Westport doesn't show much difference except it does make it clear it appears to be only one very large tower surrounded by lots of smaller buildings. That might look kinda weird. I'd like to see a few towers over that way.
We can't have everything in the city Sixty stories. This is better than what is there now. I'm happy with what is being proposed.
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