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Old June 11th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #4181
jamie_hunt
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FWIW: Economic impact paper on the Staples Center in LA. Didn't realize they had five professional teams there.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #4182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricia_Lvs_Baltimore View Post
I did some research on current NBA and NHL arenas. Maybe this will help:

* The Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena has a footprint of 130,000 square feet and has a maximum seating capacity of 16,200.

* The Pyramid Arena in Memphis, Tennessee has a footprint of 360,000 square feet and has a maximum seating capacity of 21,000.

I guess it may all depend on how many seats we end up with.
Do you have any different buildings
LAMS is not an NBA or NHL arena. Lakers and Clippers and Kings play at the Staples Center, Ducks play at the Honda Center or 'the Pond'.

The Pyramid is an entirely different architechural scheme all-together. (its literally a pyramid and will of course have a huge footprint if the roof is to be big enough) It turned out to be a terrible plan, and after 11 years or so, Memphis had to build the Fed-Ex Arena to get the Grizzlies.

However where did you find this information? Are there any other arenas on there? We need something more indicative of a new and successful downtown arena, ie Verizon Center, Fleet Center.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 07:46 PM   #4183
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The rule of thumb is 26 GSF per seat
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Old June 11th, 2007, 07:55 PM   #4184
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harborview



putting the first tower in front of the pinnacle doesn't bother me too much. they better get some ground floor retail in there with all of the frontage along key highway.

i think we missed a real opportunity to make key highway into a great mixed use street. with the new townhomes and ritz condos, it feels too residential with no reason to be down there if you don't live there.

the 2nd tower on the parking lot is interesting. i wish it'd have better presence on the street. my view already got blocked by the patriot townhomes, so i say go for it. it's interesting seeing the buildings "grow" from the older urban fabric in the neighborhood.

i think they should let them build, but there needs to be a concession made to the neighborhood and city for getting extra out of the site.

i'd vote for any of the following:
key highway streetscape improvements, a major city plaza/park on the waterfront, a signature piece(s) of architecture by a high end designer or the creation of a retail district that would be jump started/subsidized by the developer to get it going....

more density and activity along key highway is good for the City AND Federal Hill. they just need to bury the hatchet and get something done that works for both sides!
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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:03 PM   #4185
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I've been harping on it ever since I registered. They really should put retail across from the pinnacle (between Digital High and Key Hwy). All that residential and no place to walk to for milk........

Tell me a trader joes wouldnt be a huge there......
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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:08 PM   #4186
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I still like the current site of the arena for a new one.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:16 PM   #4187
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Another huge tower crane went up this weekend at Hopkins hospital. That makes 4 of them in that area - 2 for the hospital and 2 for the bio-park.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #4188
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I remember walking through the old Beth Steel Propeller shop which was located where the Ritz Carlton is.
The building was crammed floor to ceiling with cardboard boxes containing documents pertaining to the various lawsuits of which Harborview were parties to.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 08:57 PM   #4189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgunna View Post
I still like the current site of the arena for a new one.

Yeah, there's something appealing about a location the city already owns and has been used for big events for 40 years (longer, if you count the Second Continental Congress meeting at that site in 1776-77), that's near 37,000 downtown residents and 100,000 office workers, is on the light rail and many bus lines and is a half block from the subway, and is a block from the convention center and Camden Yards and four from the Inner Harbor.

A supertall as part of the project would be really cool.

(Comcast Center at UM is a 40 minute drive from downtown Baltimore. The Blast can play there while the new arena gets built.)
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Old June 11th, 2007, 09:20 PM   #4190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
The rule of thumb is 26 GSF per seat
That doesn't work for footprint....26 GSF * 20,000 Seats is 520,000....take the sq root of that you get 721 ft...an arena isn't going to be 2 and a half football fields on any side.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 09:29 PM   #4191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbalto View Post



I've been harping on it ever since I registered. They really should put retail across from the pinnacle (between Digital High and Key Hwy). All that residential and no place to walk to for milk........

Tell me a trader joes wouldnt be a huge there......
amen. Seems to me an agreement could be reached if they focused on retail and just opening up space to the community in general.

To tell you the truth, the skyscrapers and pierhomes don't bother me. They don't block the views of anyone, they are easy to 'see' around. What bothers me is when I drive or run down key hwy and the entire left side of the road is just a 15 ft wall with 3, 4, or 5 stories of condos right behind it just blocking the entire view of the water.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 10:18 PM   #4192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottbbfm View Post
Do you have any different buildings
LAMS is not an NBA or NHL arena. Lakers and Clippers and Kings play at the Staples Center, Ducks play at the Honda Center or 'the Pond'.

The Pyramid is an entirely different architechural scheme all-together. (its literally a pyramid and will of course have a huge footprint if the roof is to be big enough) It turned out to be a terrible plan, and after 11 years or so, Memphis had to build the Fed-Ex Arena to get the Grizzlies.

However where did you find this information? Are there any other arenas on there? We need something more indicative of a new and successful downtown arena, ie Verizon Center, Fleet Center.
I found them from various websites. No one website imparticular. Sorry for the mislead information. This should give you an indication of just how much I watch basketball and hockey. haha

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Old June 11th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #4193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbalto View Post
I've been harping on it ever since I registered. They really should put retail across from the pinnacle (between Digital High and Key Hwy). All that residential and no place to walk to for milk........

Tell me a trader joes wouldnt be huge there......
A Trader Joe's wouldn't be huge there.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Have no idea whether it would be or not. Don't know what sort of footprint TJ's looks for or whether they want the proverbial sea of parking or would be okay with structured parking above their store, or whether they'd worry about DH students lurking about after school, or any of the hundreds of things their site selectors factor into their decisions.

It's probably moot, anyway. Pretty sure the city has avoided retail on Key Highway (other than the gas stations/mini-marts at the intersections with Lawrence Street and the Tide Point road, to which HarborViewians could probably walk for milk) to keep traffic moving relatively briskly between the harbor and the I-95 interchange. They learned the lesson of Ritchie Highway. Namely, once there's retail on a road, it ceases to be a "highway" in any meaningful sense.
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Old June 11th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #4194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_hunt View Post
A Trader Joe's wouldn't be huge there.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Have no idea whether it would be or not. Don't know what sort of footprint TJ's looks for or whether they want the proverbial sea of parking or would be okay with structured parking above their store, or whether they'd worry about DH students lurking about after school, or any of the hundreds of things their site selectors factor into their decisions.

It's probably moot, anyway. Pretty sure the city has avoided retail on Key Highway (other than the gas stations/mini-marts at the intersections with Lawrence Street and the Tide Point road, to which HarborViewians could probably walk for milk) to keep traffic moving relatively briskly between the harbor and the I-95 interchange. They learned the lesson of Ritchie Highway. Namely, once there's retail on a road, it ceases to be a "highway" in any meaningful sense.

who knows...,


I think it would be a cash cow.......
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Old June 11th, 2007, 11:58 PM   #4195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_hunt View Post
They learned the lesson of Ritchie Highway. Namely, once there's retail on a road, it ceases to be a "highway" in any meaningful sense.
Well as a neighborhood resident, I don't see any value in it being a "highway" in the first place. It should be a walkable boulevard with retail and view corridors from the neighboring streets. Traffic should move along, but it should no longer be a throughway. Bumpouts and other traffic calming measures were in the draft URP.

In the draft I read, the city was pretty much in agreement, but now it's just a matter of how the wording in the urban renewal plan turns out. (The wording could end up promoting the 5 story walls we have now). There was supposed to be a meeting tonight sponsored by the planning department at the Museaum of Industry on the new URP/PUD but I think Mayor Dixon called it off in order to discuss the Harborview project with the neighborhood.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 12:07 AM   #4196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folsomfanatic View Post


putting the first tower in front of the pinnacle doesn't bother me too much. they better get some ground floor retail in there with all of the frontage along key highway.

i think we missed a real opportunity to make key highway into a great mixed use street. with the new townhomes and ritz condos, it feels too residential with no reason to be down there if you don't live there.

the 2nd tower on the parking lot is interesting. i wish it'd have better presence on the street. my view already got blocked by the patriot townhomes, so i say go for it. it's interesting seeing the buildings "grow" from the older urban fabric in the neighborhood.

i think they should let them build, but there needs to be a concession made to the neighborhood and city for getting extra out of the site.

i'd vote for any of the following:
key highway streetscape improvements, a major city plaza/park on the waterfront, a signature piece(s) of architecture by a high end designer or the creation of a retail district that would be jump started/subsidized by the developer to get it going....

more density and activity along key highway is good for the City AND Federal Hill. they just need to bury the hatchet and get something done that works for both sides!
I agree. And so does the Key Highway Community Association as they voted to support the proposed changes to the PUD. It's just some vocal Federal Hill people that seem (because I haven't actually talked to them) to be resisting all dialogue and compromise. Funny thing is, the proposed density is dramatically lower than what was approved in the 80's.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 12:16 AM   #4197
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nope, their reasoning isn't strong at all. it's no different from someone buying a condo in the CBD with a view of the harbor only to have it snatched away from them because another developer comes along and builds a tower right in front of the condo which then blocks that harbor view they cherish so much. that kind of thing happens when you live down the harbor or in the CBD. that's a chance you take.
Their reasoning is more than just you blocked my view. Its bigger than that. Its creating a walled of exclusive neighborhood that through design deters interaction with the community and closes off the water. no, there are no turnstyles to get in, but the experience is not what a waterfront experience should be as a public entity, which is what it should be since the public funded the construction of the bulkhead for HV. Besides that, HV has over the years played games with the community with regard to flexible interpretation of the URP, which the community had to approve before building could occur. So its also the community showing its displeasure with the city’s enforcement of the urp. What that leads to is doubts that the 2+ years of working with the city to develop the new URP will actually provide a document that will control future development in a manner that is outlined by the urp.

I have a meeting with the Mayor at 6 today, along with the other sobo community leaders to discuss the Key Highway Study as well as HV. It should be interesting if nothing else than getting to meet face to face with the Mayor in a non-political schmooze fest.

Here is what I suggested as a way to help facility dense development on the industrial properties on Key.

==========================

I know the mayor is extremely busy, so I wanted to get this to her ahead of the meeting so we would not get bogged down with a new idea. But I think this could be a way to allow the rezoning of Key Highway to be a positive for all parties involved, community, property owners and the City.

The first thing the Mayor needs to understand is that the crux of the issue at hand is more than just blocked views and height of buildings. It’s the impacts, both real and perceived of new development and as a community; we have a right to fight for our way of life as it is outlined by the present laws on the books. Right now we have industrial land on the water and the majority of the residents are very happy with it being that way. A change to the zoning results in a change to our community which equates to a change to our lives. While the proponents of waterfront development will argue that their projects will improve the quality of life of the adjacent properties in the form of appreciation of our house values, amenities on the water etc. the fact remains that those of us who live next to development, rarely enjoy the development to the extent of the residents of the new units on the water. What we do feel from new development is the change in traffic on the streets, loss of parking, the loss of our beloved water front views, increased taxes, and a change in our lifestyle that we have grown to love.

If the City is going to sell the community on a change, I think the City needs to provide the Community a benefit for the new development that we will get to enjoy. In 2005 at one of the Task Force Meetings I recommended to the group that the City establish a tax benefits district which would receive a substantial percentage of the increased tax revenue that will be generated by the rezoned Key Highway Properties. The boundary of the district would include areas of the SOBO peninsula that will bear the brunt of the negative impacts of this development (lost water views, increased traffic, loss of parking etc.). I am hoping that provisions for the district will be included in the City Council Bill amending the Key Highway Urban Renewal Plan along with the design guidelines. These tax benefits districts exist in Baltimore already so we would not be reinventing the wheel. I envision the funds being funneled to programs aimed to improve the quality of life of our area, which will counter act the negative impacts of dense development along the water. Here are few suggestions:

1) Improving the schools in our communities including Federal Hill Elementary, Thomas Johnson Elementary, and Francis Scott Key by renovating and updating the buildings and eliminate the building’s problems, i.e. lead in the water. Make these schools as beautiful as the new schools being built in Howard County. Expand after school sports programs etc. This will help keep families in the area, which will foster stability and community in the area.

2) Hire more police officers dedicated full time to patrolling our schools and the surrounding blocks surrounding the schools.

3) Hire 2 full time park maintenance crews dedicated to maintaining Riverside Park, Latrobe Park and Federal Hill Park Only. These parks are our version of the suburb’s “back yard to play in.”

The list could go on and on and on with regard to quality of life issues that could be funded by public dollars.

While it may seem selfish and may be viewed as if the rich parts of the City are getting richer, but unfortunately, it’s the only way to build real, sustainable growth to our decaying City. We need to build on our strengths as this is the way to maximize the amount of private investment that the public dollars will leverage. The South Baltimore shoreline is a gold mine for the City, but land is limited. Please take the time to look to the future and realize that the true goldmine is really the 10,000+ homes in the sobo peninsula and use the Key Highway Corridor merely as a catalyst for the refinement and perpetual improvement of the entire peninsula.

Also, I would like to qualify my note by saying that these are my opinions and I do not intent to speak for the group. I welcome feedback from all communities and government officials.

Sincerely,
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Old June 12th, 2007, 12:32 AM   #4198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Why would I be offended? I'd go for the site between the two stadiums. Anyplace downtown is fine with me. I just think that the closer it is to the urban fabric of the city, the more spin off development we will get.

On thing that can't be denied is that the MCI arena did wonders for the part of Washington it is in. It spured development because it wasn't surrounded by acres of parking and was integrated into the street grid.

If the city and the state are going to make a big investment, we should all want to get as much return on it as possible.
Yea, look at the difference between FedEx field and the Verizon Center, it's huge. The Verizon Center spurred huge development in Chinatown and helped connect Metro Center to the Union Station neighborhoods.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 01:58 AM   #4199
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Remember it's the GSF. You have to take into account the back of house areas, skyboxes, runways and administrative areas
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Old June 12th, 2007, 02:32 AM   #4200
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Hey guys:

The architect for 300 East Pratt project is BBG out of NY, NY

David B. Westerlund
Doracon Development, LLC
3500 East Biddle St.
Baltimore, MD 21213
O: 410-558-0600 F: 410-558-3591

[email protected]
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