daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > General Urban Developments > DN Archives



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools
Old June 29th, 2007, 10:59 AM   #4561
IMPRESARIO
★Resident Ilonggo★™
 
IMPRESARIO's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Garden State & Iloilo City,Philippines
Posts: 1,578
Likes (Received): 1332

Yey! love it too, :clap:
__________________
WV Regional CapitalViva! La Muy Leal y Noble Ciudad de Iloilo! Ilonggo Heartland
flavoursofiloilo.com exploreiloilo.comiloiloilove.comcafeilonggo.blogspot.com
thefoodieschoice.comgigsilonggo.com
IMPRESARIO no está en línea  

Sponsored Links
Old June 29th, 2007, 11:45 AM   #4562
StevenW
Born in Baltimore
 
StevenW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Newberry, SC
Posts: 11,705
Likes (Received): 1602

And in tradition of coupling bad news with good news.
Banner= Good News.
This article= Bad News.

Cordish project plan shifts
BDC says proposal for former balloon site has been scaled back

By Jill Rosen
Sun reporter
Originally published June 29, 2007

Plans for a prominent site on the eastern edge of downtown, in the heart of the city's entertainment district, have substantively shrunk since they were announced two years ago, according to Baltimore's economic development agency.

Developer David Cordish intends to build only half as much as he formerly envisioned on land once home to a helium balloon ride that closed after a harrowing incident in 2004.

Cordish had promised Baltimore Development Corp. that at the foot of a 250-unit high-rise of condominiums and apartments, he would build a Lucky Strike Lanes, an upscale bowling "lounge" - part of a network with 16 locations nationwide including Washington.

But yesterday BDC officials were trying to decide which of two much smaller alternative proposals they preferred. One includes 100 apartments and retail space a fraction the size of the bowling alley. Another maintains the same retail space and substitutes a 100-room hotel. Both options include parking garages for about 100 cars.

Softer real estate conditions prompted the changes, BDC officials said.

"It's half the size of what was proposed - due to changes in the market," said BDC board member Deborah Hunt Devan.

City development officials had high hopesthat the half-acre balloon site - two blocks from the Inner Harbor and next door to both the Port Discovery children's museum and Cordish's sprawling assortment of nightlife options known as Power Plant Live - would lure an addition to Baltimore's stable of attractions.

They also hoped that with the location atop the Market Place/Shot Tower Metro station, the project would turn into a great opportunity to bring people downtown who weren't dependent on cars.

Reached by e-mail yesterday, Cordish, who said he was out of town, took issue with BDC board members' saying he had scaled back the project.

"Nothing has been scaled back," he wrote. "What, in fact, happens in every project we have done in Baltimore and across the country is build far more then the minimum."


Cordish did not respond when The Sun asked him to elaborate.

BDC did not settle yesterday on either of Cordish's alternate plans. BDC President M.J. "Jay" Brodie said that he would like to see Cordish bolster the proposals, particularly for such an important location.

"We - and Cordish - will work together toward more density on this important gateway-to-downtown site," Brodie said.

At the end of 2005, when BDC initially approved the $70 million deal, it called for 125 condominiums, 125 apartments, 50,000 square feet of retail space and 400 parking spots. Cordish said he wanted to have it open by the end of 2007.

At the time, Baltimore was reveling in a wave of condo proposals. The market has cooled, and other developers in town have announced they are reining-in projects. In Charles Village, for instance, Struever Bros. Eccles & Rouse plans to construct market-rate apartments in the Olmsted building project instead of luxury condos.

Development on the downtown site would revive an area that has lain dormant since July 17, 2004, when 16 passengers and a crew member were stranded in the Port Discovery HiFlyer balloon for nearly two hours as a violent storm blew through the area.

With the balloon 200 feet in the air, 50- to 60-mph wind gusts surprised the ride's operators, who were unable to lower the balloon. As the wind nearly blew the balloon onto President Street and sent it crashing into the air-conditioning shed atop city police headquarters next door, passengers in the steel gondola were tossed about.

The BDC did not renew the balloon operator's contract after the incident. But the attraction, which opened in 2001, never became the tourist magnet that city officials had hoped it would be.

Being above an underground rail line complicates development options for the site. The location rules out an underground parking garage, and even what goes on top would likely require especially complicated engineering.

Also, builders would have to take care that a tower would not interfere with police helicopters heading for the rooftop landing pad at the department's downtown headquarters nearby.



[email protected]
__________________
Baltimore, my hometown.
StevenW no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 11:53 AM   #4563
StevenW
Born in Baltimore
 
StevenW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Newberry, SC
Posts: 11,705
Likes (Received): 1602

You know what? We have not had enough bad news to weigh us down and get our heads out of the sky because of the Banner and all. So, how about some MORE bad news?

Report: Baltimore population decreased
(Map, News) - Baltimore City lost 5,000 residents last year, according to the latest estimate of the U.S. Census Bureau.

A report issued Thursday listing the population of the country’s 25 largest cities estimated Baltimore had a population of 631,366 as of July 1, 2006 — 5,000 fewer than in 2005. The loss, representing less than 1 percent of the city’s population, equals roughly 400 people per month.

Baltimore suffered the third-largest population loss of major U.S cities in 2006. Only Detroit, which lost 1.4 percent of its population, and Boston lost more residents. Since 2000, Baltimore has lost nearly 20,000 residents.

Washington, the 25th-largest city, lost roughly 1,000 residents.

New York remained the country’s most populous city with 8.2 million residents, followed by Chicago and Los Angeles. Phoenix had the largest increase in population of the top 25 cities since 2005, adding 43,000 residents.

However, the suburbs continued to show the largest population gains, with North Las Vegas City, a suburb of Las Vegas, adding 21,000 residents to earn the distinction of the fastest-growing municipality in the country.

Mayor Sheila Dixon questioned the accuracy of the bureau’s estimates.

“We have had to challenge census data in the past, and after reviewing the latest data, we may have to do that again,” she said.

Dixon said she believes more people are moving into the city than leaving.

“I meet new residents to our city every day, and we’re working hard to create a city that attracts individuals and families to enjoy all the positive things Baltimore has to offer,” she said.

The report is an estimate based on the 2000 census, the last time the federal agency conducted a census. The next census will be taken in 2010.

[email protected]
__________________
Baltimore, my hometown.
StevenW no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 12:06 PM   #4564
StevenW
Born in Baltimore
 
StevenW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Newberry, SC
Posts: 11,705
Likes (Received): 1602

The website still shows the older proposal: http://www.michaelgraves.com/
__________________
Baltimore, my hometown.
StevenW no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 02:17 PM   #4565
fanofterps
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,269
Likes (Received): 121

This is very disappointing

I would like to see the residential boom spread to Lombard St. The Water St. condo's are great but we could use some more. I'm not sure why he can't build 250 rental apartments rather than 100? 300 East Pratt, Cordish project(with 250 apartments) and a good replacement for the Community college would really change Lombard St. for the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenW View Post
The website still shows the older proposal: http://www.michaelgraves.com/
fanofterps no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 02:30 PM   #4566
jamie_hunt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,544
Likes (Received): 814

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanofterps View Post
I'm not sure why he can't build 250 rental apartments rather than 100?
Yeah, that's odd. One of Kingdon Gould III's rationales for wanting to build so high on his Mt. Vernon lots is that he wanted to have at least 240 apts. It's only at that point that amenities such as a doorman, pool, etc. start to make financial sense, he said. Hmmmm.
jamie_hunt no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 03:00 PM   #4567
30 Floors Up
Registered User
 
30 Floors Up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Blue Ridge Summit
Posts: 3,373
Likes (Received): 807

I think the BDC needs to rebid the project and let other developers compete to put a high density building there. If Cordish can't deliver, kick him to the curb.

Looks like Cordish played the old game of promising a planet to get control of the site, and then delivering an astroid instead.

With the "choices" he gave the city, why doesn't he have an option that includes all the retail AND a hotel AND 100 apartments?
30 Floors Up no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 03:15 PM   #4568
30 Floors Up
Registered User
 
30 Floors Up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Blue Ridge Summit
Posts: 3,373
Likes (Received): 807

Here is a teaser from next weeks BBJ:

News American site in flux

Baltimore Business Journal - June 29, 2007by Daniel J. Sernovitz, Staff

Developers UrbanAmerica LP and Doracon LLC are getting ready to launch revised plans for the former News American site at Pratt and South streets in downtown Baltimore.

David Westerlund, project manager with Doracon, said the joint venture is finalizing plans for the 50-plus-story tower that is set to include a luxury hotel flag, multi-level retail and a mix of condominium units selling for as much as $1 million or more.....


NEWS AT 11:00!
30 Floors Up no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 04:03 PM   #4569
spacoli
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 9
Likes (Received): 0

Howdy

Hello everyone - I'm new on this forum. Wish I had found this site earlier. I'm amazed how many people are keeping up with development in Baltimore - and how knowledgeable everyone is on the subject. Clearly there are some industry experts represented here. I'm just a resident observer.

I recently started a blog about development in Baltimore - pretty much a lot of the same topics being covered here. You may be interested - www.baltimoregrows.com. Thanks.
spacoli no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 04:37 PM   #4570
rxsoccer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 122
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
I think the BDC needs to rebid the project and let other developers compete to put a high density building there. If Cordish can't deliver, kick him to the curb.

Looks like Cordish played the old game of promising a planet to get control of the site, and then delivering an astroid instead.

With the "choices" he gave the city, why doesn't he have an option that includes all the retail AND a hotel AND 100 apartments?
I completely agree. No way we should settle for some second-rate project on that site. Its amazing to me how investors always seem to make the same mistakes over and over and over again. There aren't enough independent thinkers out there and everybody jumps on board with everyone else and follows trends like sheep.
I don't know the numbers, but in the last 6 months, I think we've seen a pretty major swing in announcements from number of projected condo's to office space. Office space is selling at a premium right now and I would bet in a few years there's going to be a glut of them with values dropping while the market for condos will be in short supply because of all the increased workers coming to the city. You can't expect to build skyscraper after skyscraper of office space and not put places to house these people. If we do, we'll be stuck with a CBD thats lifeless at night.
A lot of people may not agree with me, but I think Naing has the right approach (from what I understand of his concept). He appears to be trying to keep his 2 towers project moving forward by building it in phases and allowing for maximum flexibility to keep up with shifting markets. As long as he gets going on his garage first, that gives him time to figure out what proportion of needs makes sense for the first tower. And as thats coming to completion we'll be in a totally different market that he can adjust his second tower composition to tailor to. And by diversifying his investment across 2 large towers, he can pretty much accomodate a broad range of needs and absorb downturns in any single market (I believe he mentioned putting everything from office, condos, apts, long-term care facilities, etc). It may move at a slower pace than we'd like to see, but I think he's bullish on baltimore, just trying to stay rational at the same time. (although come to think of it...maybe he got a bit too excited when he said 2x60 story towers )
And back to Cordish, its only fitting he wanted to partner with the weinberg foundation on the 'superblock' since they see eye to eye on not delivering on promises.
rxsoccer no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 04:59 PM   #4571
baltimoreisbest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 416
Likes (Received): 69

A developer is only going to build a facility if he knows the discounted stream of income it will generate will more than cover the costs of development. Obviously, selling condos in a market that is oversupplied won't easily result in a profitable investment.

Office space demand is really a function of business growth in the area. And when you look at our downtown, or the city in general, you will find there has been very low-to-moderate growth of business services, whose firms typically occupy office developments. Most cities, to be fair, have had difficulty growing their CBDs over the past couple decades. As a result of corporate consolidation, and the erosion of jobs in the financial industry from second-tier cities to places like New York, it's not hard to see why, until last year's opening of Circa Centre in Philadelphia, that city had not seen new office development for a decade. Center City Philly is virtually unchanged in employment, while job growth accelerated in its Pennsylvania and New Jersey suburbs for the past decade. Baltimore is no different, although we might have had a net gain of jobs as a result of our growing hospitality industry. Hundreds of people were laid off from Legg Mason last year. Alex. Brown's jobs are mostly gone. Verizon cut a lot of jobs here.

Aside from biotech, what non-hospitality industry is actually expanding here? So where is the office development going to come from??
baltimoreisbest no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 05:21 PM   #4572
PeterSmith
Moderator
 
PeterSmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Miami/Baltimore
Posts: 5,851
Likes (Received): 2654

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacoli View Post
Hello everyone - I'm new on this forum. Wish I had found this site earlier. I'm amazed how many people are keeping up with development in Baltimore - and how knowledgeable everyone is on the subject. Clearly there are some industry experts represented here. I'm just a resident observer.

I recently started a blog about development in Baltimore - pretty much a lot of the same topics being covered here. You may be interested - www.baltimoregrows.com. Thanks.
Welcome to the forum, spacoli. Your blog looks pretty cool. It seems like you're covering just about everything going on in the city. Thanks for sharing. You joined at the right time, looks like there is a lot going on today.

I'm surprised at Cordish. I'm guessing that with the scale-back, we're also going to see a switch from the unique architecture of the first proposal to something a little more bland in the newer proposals. I hope his tower on the Westside doesn't get delayed either. Both are very important, since they're more or less on the fringes of downtown right now.
PeterSmith no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 05:22 PM   #4573
30 Floors Up
Registered User
 
30 Floors Up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Blue Ridge Summit
Posts: 3,373
Likes (Received): 807

Just where is the over supply of condos downtown?

Water Street - Sold Out
The Vue - Sold Out

In terms of the middle/upper middle class, that is it. There is nothing else new that is available. Can anyone think of any buildings I missed?

The Ritz is definately high end, and the Pinacle (if it gets constructed) is too. BTW, the Ritz is 80% sold out so there aren't many of them left either.

There are most likely less than 100 new condo units available for purchase in all of downtown right now. That is anything but a glut and they surely will be sold in the next two years. If a developer was to break ground today on a new building, they wouln't be able to deliver their product for another two and one half years.

Last edited by 30 Floors Up; June 29th, 2007 at 06:05 PM.
30 Floors Up no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 05:44 PM   #4574
pennster
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 391
Likes (Received): 7

The banner looks really squished...odd.
pennster no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 06:19 PM   #4575
DemolitionDave
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,336
Likes (Received): 208

I ain't buying the condo argument. I know how the game is played. Technically, these developments might be 100% sold, but how many units were sold to another company controlled by the developers?
A certain percentage of the units have to be sold in order to convert from a construction loan to a lower percentage conventional financing. It's kind of like the freinds and family plan. I "own" several condos downtown but I also have an agreement with the developer to buy them back for a preset price.
If the condo market was all that robust we wouldn't be seeing as many going up for auction.

As far as the Cordish project goes the city needs to start a "carrot and stick" approach. If any incentives are granted to a developer than there should be a greater amount of disincentives if they don't carry through on their promises. Case in point, how long will the Recreation Pier project languish?
DemolitionDave no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 07:09 PM   #4576
Silver Springer
The Flagship State
 
Silver Springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,521
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxsoccer View Post
I completely agree. No way we should settle for some second-rate project on that site. Its amazing to me how investors always seem to make the same mistakes over and over and over again. There aren't enough independent thinkers out there and everybody jumps on board with everyone else and follows trends like sheep.
I don't know the numbers, but in the last 6 months, I think we've seen a pretty major swing in announcements from number of projected condo's to office space. Office space is selling at a premium right now and I would bet in a few years there's going to be a glut of them with values dropping while the market for condos will be in short supply because of all the increased workers coming to the city. You can't expect to build skyscraper after skyscraper of office space and not put places to house these people. If we do, we'll be stuck with a CBD thats lifeless at night.
A lot of people may not agree with me, but I think Naing has the right approach (from what I understand of his concept). He appears to be trying to keep his 2 towers project moving forward by building it in phases and allowing for maximum flexibility to keep up with shifting markets. As long as he gets going on his garage first, that gives him time to figure out what proportion of needs makes sense for the first tower. And as thats coming to completion we'll be in a totally different market that he can adjust his second tower composition to tailor to. And by diversifying his investment across 2 large towers, he can pretty much accomodate a broad range of needs and absorb downturns in any single market (I believe he mentioned putting everything from office, condos, apts, long-term care facilities, etc). It may move at a slower pace than we'd like to see, but I think he's bullish on baltimore, just trying to stay rational at the same time. (although come to think of it...maybe he got a bit too excited when he said 2x60 story towers )
And back to Cordish, its only fitting he wanted to partner with the weinberg foundation on the 'superblock' since they see eye to eye on not delivering on promises.
A lot people put faith in residential like it's the magic pill, I tend to disagree. I don't think most people really understand the impact of office buildings over residential and the stark contrasts when residential goes into decline.

Try thinking long-term for a second. Baltimore will not be taken seriously if all you do is build residential, it will be seen as a bedroom community instead of a destination or in the same light as Boston or San Fran. It's just not smart to inundate your downtown with a whole bunch of residential units. The method is unsustainable in the long-term.

It's a burden on public services and transportation unlike offices.

Inundating the downtown with residential will be a mistake in the long-term.

When an area predominantly full of residential units goes into decline, it has a far more negative impact than when an area full of offices goes into decline.

They can build all the office buildings they want and Vacancy can go through the roof, I would rather have that scenario than with residential. Eventually the space will be absorbed.

I'm just surprised Baltimore hasn't learned from their mistakes, it was a glut of residential that got you into this mess in the first. No one is going to turn an office building into a crack house and they command higher respect and quality. It's just so difficult to redevelop residential areas. Look at what Hopkins had to o through, no private developer would be willing to go though all that. Community opposition etc and you can't reuse them into other types of uses like you can with an office building.
Building so many row homes and apartment buildings was a mistake that was made in Baltimore, the downtown was spared because it had a dominate amount of office buildings but now were throwing a lot of residential into there.

Long-term, it will be regretful if the only thing you see in Baltimore's downtown are whole bunch of residential units. I can just imagine them becoming large ghettos and so much harder to revitalize if they do go into decline, once the new wears off.

That’s why it’s good to see 10 IH go towards office and contrary to what you are saying that’s really the only project that has looked towards office, so we will not have a glut.
__________________
SILVER SPRING SCENE 3.0
Silver Springer no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #4577
Silver Springer
The Flagship State
 
Silver Springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,521
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Just where is the over supply of condos downtown?

Water Street - Sold Out
The Vue - Sold Out

In terms of the middle/upper middle class, that is it. There is nothing else new that is available. Can anyone think of any buildings I missed?

The Ritz is definately high end, and the Pinacle (if it gets constructed) is too. BTW, the Ritz is 80% sold out so there aren't many of them left either.

There are most likely less than 100 new condo units available for purchase in all of downtown right now. That is anything but a glut and they surely will be sold in the next two years. If a developer was to break ground today on a new building, they wouln't be able to deliver their product for another two and one half years.
The Vue isn't sold out, I was there yesterday. Most have been sold though.
__________________
SILVER SPRING SCENE 3.0
Silver Springer no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #4578
Hugh Jaramillo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Likes (Received): 0

it looks great...although i feel a bit short and squaty. i'll walk around hunchbacked all day today![/QUOTE]

Well I never thought that I would live to see the day and even though it is a bit squaty it is if fact Bawler hon!

On another note, the city of Baltimore will continue to lose residents because of the failing school system and high crime rate. It's unfortunate but middle class people who have children and can't afford to send their kids to private schools have no choice especially when the neighbouring counties have such good public schools. I know that I will never live to see the day when people actually say, "I moved to Baltimore to send my kids to public schools". It's just not ever going to happen folks. In the mean time the only people that will be moving in are single professionals or empty nesters and numbers wise they don't counter balance the huge exodus of middle class and lower class people that just what to better themselves. It would be nice if the goofy city council would lower property taxes but even if that happened, it still wouldn't be enough to compensate for the crappy schools and drug dealing crime wave that is getting out of hand.
Hugh Jaramillo no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 08:23 PM   #4579
modestproposal
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bethesda, Maryland, USA and Atlanta
Posts: 520
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Springer View Post
A lot people put faith in residential like it's the magic pill, I tend to disagree. I don't think most people really understand the impact of office buildings over residential and the stark contrasts when residential goes into decline.

Try thinking long-term for a second. Baltimore will not be taken seriously if all you do is build residential, it will be seen as a bedroom community instead of a destination or in the same light as Boston or San Fran. It's just not smart to inundate your downtown with a whole bunch of residential units. The method is unsustainable in the long-term.

It's a burden on public services and transportation unlike offices.

Inundating the downtown with residential will be a mistake in the long-term.

When an area predominantly full of residential units goes into decline, it has a far more negative impact than when an area full of offices goes into decline.

They can build all the office buildings they want and Vacancy can go through the roof, I would rather have that scenario than with residential. Eventually the space will be absorbed.

I'm just surprised Baltimore hasn't learned from their mistakes, it was a glut of residential that got you into this mess in the first. No one is going to turn an office building into a crack house and they command higher respect and quality. It's just so difficult to redevelop residential areas. Look at what Hopkins had to o through, no private developer would be willing to go though all that. Community opposition etc and you can't reuse them into other types of uses like you can with an office building.
Building so many row homes and apartment buildings was a mistake that was made in Baltimore, the downtown was spared because it had a dominate amount of office buildings but now were throwing a lot of residential into there.

Long-term, it will be regretful if the only thing you see in Baltimore's downtown are whole bunch of residential units. I can just imagine them becoming large ghettos and so much harder to revitalize if they do go into decline, once the new wears off.

That’s why it’s good to see 10 IH go towards office and contrary to what you are saying that’s really the only project that has looked towards office, so we will not have a glut.
You've brought up this point many times, but this is the first time you've explained it. It makes sense.
modestproposal no está en línea  
Old June 29th, 2007, 08:47 PM   #4580
Silver Springer
The Flagship State
 
Silver Springer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,521
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by modestproposal View Post
You've brought up this point many times, but this is the first time you've explained it. It makes sense.
Can you imagine if the 10 IH or Westport snatch a fortune 500 firm? That would do more than a 1000 residences ever could.

Since some people on this forum consider office space so unimportant...would you give up Legg Mason for 5000 residential units?
__________________
SILVER SPRING SCENE 3.0
Silver Springer no está en línea  


Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu