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Old February 2nd, 2007, 03:10 AM   #441
getontrac
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^Yup. But as I've been pointing out and pushing my opinions, I believe the era of highway expansion is nearing an end and the time for transit to come to the forefront.

As you may have read in other posts and threads, the financial capabilties of the state to pay for O&M on existing highways will increase, not to mention construction of new transit lines will require new revenue sources, which will certainly be in the realm of taxes and fees.

However, there are some places on the beltway where you'd have to condemn/demolish property or eliminate a shoulder to accomplish 5 lanes.

After the expansion to 4 lanes between Towson and I-95, expansion should forever end.

Nate
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 03:50 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
However, there are some places on the beltway where you'd have to condemn/demolish property or eliminate a shoulder to accomplish 5 lanes.

After the expansion to 4 lanes between Towson and I-95, expansion should forever end.
It will be extrodinarily expensive to go to 5 lanes for most of the beltway with a good chunk of the cost being the large amounts of property that would need to be eminitly domained.

Mass trasit is going to have to be more seriously considered in the future as there are no plan in either Baltimore Co. or City for any new highways of any kind.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 04:09 AM   #443
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Unless it's for some of the lab space in either biopark, no national company will move to Baltimore anytime soon. The parking costs are through the roof, and taxes aren't so friendly for the less-than-superior amenities that the city can offer. Sure, we have the dining and shopping experience down, but when it comes to transit connectivity, proximity to large sources of capital and talent, etc., we're not that great, and not really important from a national or global standpoint. The problem for us is that Legg Mason may have outgrown the city of Baltimore. There's not enough parking at that building, the building's floorplates aren't terribly large, and the lease is expensive for a location in a second-tier city. Throwing money at the company as an investive to stay isn't, on its own, going to justify a long term presence here.

That being said, it's important to note that Legg Mason doesn't have space lined up for a new corporate headquarters. It has five floors of the New York Times building, which is nearly fully leased. Five floors isn't enough space for a headquarters of several hundred -- if not thousand -- unless the company's board and executives worked out of NY and everyone else stayed in a remote location. That's the second problem -- a company would pay for a New York headquarters if it could reduce the inconveniences of being remotely connected to a financial center; a remote (either Owings Mills, or NJ) location would uproot a lot of jobs while creating logistical headaches for the company -- as well as the prospect of high attrition. Legg Mason grew to become what it is because it has good, loyal management that has stuck around.

The company could also move to the suburbs -- but where? Sure, they have land in Owings Mills, but nothing's been developed on it, and it would take at least 2 years to have any buildings of considerable size constructed there. Legg's downtown lease expires in a little over a year, I believe. Do you know of any headquarters-style office building in Baltimore County (I'm assuming that's where the company would go, as most of the executives live in Roland Park, Mt. Washington, or in the County, and wouldn't want to commute to Annapolis or D.C.) with several hundred thousand quare feet ready for lease? If the numbers in the Maryland Daily Record article are correct, Legg Mason has 1,300 employees downtown, exclusive of another 1,200 Smith Barney brokers. A company would need AT LEAST 400k square feet to accommodate 1,300 employees in a headquarters location -- and probably more for other needs. Most office space under development in the County is in the 100-200k sf range.

Finally, a force that would keep Legg downtown is the fact that it would be nearby related companies and alumni, including those now at Stifel Nicholaus, Smith Barney, and some of the smaller investment banks operating out of the 100 Light St. building (there are a handful). If there's a center for this industry in Maryland, it's still Baltimore, even though it's relatively weak. Keep in mind that the downtown area is much more accessible to interns and newly-hired analysts than far-out locations beyond the Beltway. A company that wants to be around for the new generation of its workforce has to be accessible to that workforce. That means proximity to the Northeast corridor, nearness to cultural and entertainment attractions, etc. The new housing downtown could only help. I think the Downtown Partnership could present compelling reasons for retention at this point, and I think the reasons are already compelling from Legg Mason's standpoint. The costs of moving are high, even though the costs of staying in a city like Baltimore are still too high.

Keep in mind that the NJ suburbs recently tried to woo Cigna away from Philly, with tax breaks and other incentives. Cigna looked "seriously," as they put it, at the offer, but declined, citing the very reasons I mentioned above. T. Rowe offered a similar justification for maintaining its downtown campus.

So, what Legg can (and reasonably should) expect to ask for is (a) better parking; and (b) a direct grant/loan to offset the pricey lease they signed. I think you'll also see an aggreement on the part of the city/state to pay for a part of any future building/equipment upgrades Legg will need to complete in the next ten years to modernize trading floors and office space. This will help improve building efficency and compensate for smaller than usual floorplates. Most office space gets a retrofit every 10-15 years, and we're getting close to the finish of one cycle, as the last renovation occured at the time of Legg's move-in, in 1997.

I'd really like to hear what the business-minded among you think about all this...
Honestly, I'd love to see a new HQ tower with a LOT of parking at the One Light Street address. Build it now. That's my 2 cents.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 04:10 AM   #444
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An outer beltway through the Monkton area would have been interesting. Would it have been a waste or would that area be vastly different than it is today? Definitely an interesting point for discussion. I think the goals right now should be mass transit, expanding the beltway all the way around to five lanes and expansion of 95 and 295.
Strike an outer beltway from your mind, it is not, without a major fundemental change of mind even a remote possibility. Baltimore Co. would have had to have a compleatly diffrent frame of mind starting in the late 60's. IIRC Balt Co. in 1969 put its Urban-Rural Demarcation Line (URDL) into effect. Basically this was the line that was the limit of city provided water and sewer. Essentialy anything outside this line would not be approved for intensive suburbanization. Balt. Co. has fairly strickly followed this line with only a few exceptions.

In addition Baltimore Co. has also bought up and many people have placed in trusts large amounts of Northern Baltimore Co. land to not be developed. Balt. Co. directed that all of its growth be directed to three growth areas; White Marsh, Owings Mills and Patapsco. They later largely removed the Patapsco region from the growth areas. In consquence, Northern Balt. Co. has the second lowest population density in the entire Northeast corridor, clearly obviating the need for a highway through this area.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 04:12 AM   #445
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New subway routes and maybe a couple BRT lines.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 04:20 AM   #446
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Hey, I know! Why doesn't somebody create an idea of some kind to incorporate condo living "within" HRT.
Help fund the cost for transit by making every other car a condo car. One car for the public to ride, the other for a person to own. Of course there would be condo fees annually. LOL!

Or at least have "themed" cars on the rail line. Do something marketing-wise that is different and that would perhaps attract more interest in ridership.
Just thought I'd throw out a couple of crazy ideas for evryone to think about......
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 04:33 AM   #447
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Could we be holding Baltimore back by not developing in northern Baltimore County? It's interesting an area so close the city is so rural.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 05:22 AM   #448
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Could we be holding Baltimore back by not developing in northern Baltimore County? It's interesting an area so close the city is so rural.
I don't think N Baltimore county sees itself as being held back. Baltimore county has, for some years, held to a policy that 90% of the population will live on 30% of the land area. Originally that was meant to preserve agricultural land, but the unintended outcome has been that some areas have been populated with McMansions on large land plots. Nevertheless, Baltimore county still has a lot of open space for such a populous place. They don't run water or sewers in those areas and before you can build you have to locate ground water on your property. Growth is a hot issue for N countians who value their privacy.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 05:30 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by Maudibjr View Post
It will be extrodinarily expensive to go to 5 lanes for most of the beltway with a good chunk of the cost being the large amounts of property that would need to be eminitly domained.

Mass trasit is going to have to be more seriously considered in the future as there are no plan in either Baltimore Co. or City for any new highways of any kind.
There are no current plans to expand the beltway beyond is current right of way. That's why they are building walls around some parts of it. If you try to imagine the cost of property acquisition and public resistance over the thousands of properties that would have to be taken, you can see why it won't happen. If they started today, we'd all be dead before the dust settles.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 05:38 AM   #450
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Anyone who thinks New Jersey's highways are well built has never been on the Garden State Parkway. Even the Turnpike is shitty.
Thats BS and you know that you don't really believe that.

At least the Garden State Parkway connects travelers between the NYC Metro Area to the Jersey Shores and Atlantic City.

Now what Interstate Highway or any Limited Access Highway can a traveler take to get from Baltimore to Ocean City or Virginia Beach DIRECTLY without using I-95/I-64(Virginia Beach) or US 50(Ocean City) which isn't completely built as a Limited Access Highway??????????????

BTW NJ was ranked the best state in the country to have the best kept Highways back in 1999.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 05:53 AM   #451
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^Yup. But as I've been pointing out and pushing my opinions, I believe the era of highway expansion is nearing an end and the time for transit to come to the forefront.
Your right its your opinion which isn't an Intelligent one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by getontrac View Post
As you may have read in other posts and threads, the financial capabilties of the state to pay for O&M on existing highways will increase, not to mention construction of new transit lines will require new revenue sources, which will certainly be in the realm of taxes and fees.
Yeah thats just an Left Wing Obstructionist way of saying that there should not be any federal dollars speding on funding more Highways, Modernize Transit, and Office Towers that will help increase Business/Economic/Revenue Growth. All because you people favor more Highway's, Transit, Business/Economic/Revenue Growth to continue to remain in VIRGINIA.

However, there are some places on the beltway where you'd have to condemn/demolish property or eliminate a shoulder to accomplish 5 lanes.

After the expansion to 4 lanes between Towson and I-95, expansion should forever end.[/QUOTE]

And continue to widen the Virginia side of the I-495 Beltway to 14 Lanes, Add HOT Lanes on I-395/95(From Fredericksburg to Arlington) and I-66(From the Beltway to Prince William County, and Build the Tri-County Parkway in Northern Virginia.

You'd like that.

Nate
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 05:55 AM   #452
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It will be extrodinarily expensive to go to 5 lanes for most of the beltway with a good chunk of the cost being the large amounts of property that would need to be eminitly domained.

Mass trasit is going to have to be more seriously considered in the future as there are no plan in either Baltimore Co. or City for any new highways of any kind.
Mass transit will not take MOST of the cars off the Highway's.

Again they have a very nice Mass Transit System in NNorthern Virginia, Atlanta, Miami, New Jersey, and Boston but that has not stop them from building more Highways or Widening them in the last 10 years.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:03 AM   #453
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Strike an outer beltway from your mind, it is not, without a major fundemental change of mind even a remote possibility. Baltimore Co. would have had to have a compleatly diffrent frame of mind starting in the late 60's. IIRC Balt Co. in 1969 put its Urban-Rural Demarcation Line (URDL) into effect. Basically this was the line that was the limit of city provided water and sewer. Essentialy anything outside this line would not be approved for intensive suburbanization. Balt. Co. has fairly strickly followed this line with only a few exceptions.

In addition Baltimore Co. has also bought up and many people have placed in trusts large amounts of Northern Baltimore Co. land to not be developed. Balt. Co. directed that all of its growth be directed to three growth areas; White Marsh, Owings Mills and Patapsco. They later largely removed the Patapsco region from the growth areas. In consquence, Northern Balt. Co. has the second lowest population density in the entire Northeast corridor, clearly obviating the need for a highway through this area.
And this was done mainly to make sure that Maryland's Largest City would never have a Large Suburban Population/Development that would compete against the suburbs of Northern Virginia, Atlanta, Houston, and Eventually Charlotte(since they are planning to develope most if not all of Meckleburg, Cabbarus, and Gaston Counties) and the Raliegh/Durham area(once they complete their Second BELTWAY).
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:04 AM   #454
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New subway routes and maybe a couple BRT lines.
And complete I-83 and I-70 through Baltimore.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:07 AM   #455
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At some point, the highways you build will hold more capacity than the roads that lead out of them. So then you have no additional capacity to build office, research, or residential space. Please also keep in mind that Baltimore -- perhaps to its detriment -- has built tons of parking garages recently to accommodate vehicles. Lombard St. is essentially rows of garage space. At some point, you will recognize that better bus and rail are necessary to move people into and out of cities. Having more highways won't solve the problem that, if someone wants to park in downtown Baltimore, they'll pay in excess of $12.

I also suggest, Harlem, that you tone down this liberal vs. conservative thing. As someone who comes originally from New York, I can tell you, Baltimore City and Maryland impose far fewer regulations on companies as far as parking accomodations and other amenities go.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:10 AM   #456
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Building a highway through a city is bad urban planning, for the most part. It depresses land values where it is built, creates dead zones that curtail development, and contributes to a dirtier inner city. Can you imagine what New York would have been like if Lower Manhattan was covered with expressways -- particularly along the Chambers St. corridor -- as Robert Moses planned? That doesn't mean that highways are all horrible, but we have better assets than roads -- e.g., the Northeast corridor, which needs our attention and decisive investment so that it can serve us for the next century.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:11 AM   #457
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Could we be holding Baltimore back by not developing in northern Baltimore County? It's interesting an area so close the city is so rural.
Has the Baltimore Ravens won a Super Bowl within the last 10 years???????

I have been saying for a while that these soo called anti-growth trolls that have been trying to sabatoge Business/Economic/Revenue Growth for Maryland are more than likely not from Maryland and are only doing this as a scheme in order to Keep Maryland from competeing against southern states like Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas where most of the Business/Economic/Revenue has been Growing Rapidly within te past 25-30 years.

Its no accident that there have been alot of Baltimoreans fleeing Maryland for Virginia, the Carolina's, Georgia, and Texas.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:17 AM   #458
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There are no current plans to expand the beltway beyond is current right of way. That's why they are building walls around some parts of it. If you try to imagine the cost of property acquisition and public resistance over the thousands of properties that would have to be taken, you can see why it won't happen. If they started today, we'd all be dead before the dust settles.
Yeah thats wishful thinking, but the funny thing is that they were able to widen the Capital Beltway in Northern Virginia by tearing down some Apartments near the Wilson Bridge without any setbacks like you people are wishing to do in order to prevent anymore Highway Building/Widening in Maryland.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:28 AM   #459
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Mass transit will not take MOST of the cars off the Highway's.

Again they have a very nice Mass Transit System in NNorthern Virginia, Atlanta, Miami, New Jersey, and Boston but that has not stop them from building more Highways or Widening them in the last 10 years.
Mass transit is a two prong approach. Each prong should happen simultaneously. The first prong is building a system that is capable of moving the majority of people to where they need to go. The second prong is convincing people that mass transit is worth their time and money. A few American cities have accomplished the first prong (although of those that you listed only Boston really comes close. Maybe NJ, I'm not too familiar with there.) But arguably no US city has achieved the second prong. That doesn't mean it can't be done though. Quite a few European cities and probably a few Asian cities have had success in turning mass transit into a first choice for a large percentage of the population.

Truly, I think if Baltimore hopes to revitalize itself into its former self, a world-class mass transit system is an important asset. It's one of the few certain things we can do to separate ourselves from being just another American city.
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Old February 2nd, 2007, 06:31 AM   #460
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^If we had the system we need, we'd KNOW the reason Legg Mason MAY want to leave would not be PARKING!

Nate
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