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Old June 29th, 2007, 09:28 PM   #4581
rxsoccer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Springer View Post
A lot people put faith in residential like it's the magic pill, I tend to disagree. I don't think most people really understand the impact of office buildings over residential and the stark contrasts when residential goes into decline.

Try thinking long-term for a second. Baltimore will not be taken seriously if all you do is build residential, it will be seen as a bedroom community instead of a destination or in the same light as Boston or San Fran. It's just not smart to inundate your downtown with a whole bunch of residential units. The method is unsustainable in the long-term.

It's a burden on public services and transportation unlike offices.

Inundating the downtown with residential will be a mistake in the long-term.

When an area predominantly full of residential units goes into decline, it has a far more negative impact than when an area full of offices goes into decline.

They can build all the office buildings they want and Vacancy can go through the roof, I would rather have that scenario than with residential. Eventually the space will be absorbed.

I'm just surprised Baltimore hasn't learned from their mistakes, it was a glut of residential that got you into this mess in the first. No one is going to turn an office building into a crack house and they command higher respect and quality. It's just so difficult to redevelop residential areas. Look at what Hopkins had to o through, no private developer would be willing to go though all that. Community opposition etc and you can't reuse them into other types of uses like you can with an office building.
Building so many row homes and apartment buildings was a mistake that was made in Baltimore, the downtown was spared because it had a dominate amount of office buildings but now were throwing a lot of residential into there.

Long-term, it will be regretful if the only thing you see in Baltimore's downtown are whole bunch of residential units. I can just imagine them becoming large ghettos and so much harder to revitalize if they do go into decline, once the new wears off.

Thatís why itís good to see 10 IH go towards office and contrary to what you are saying thatís really the only project that has looked towards office, so we will not have a glut.
I'm hoping my comment was not misinterpreted as supporting development focusing on residential components in downtown. That in no way is what I meant to say, nor what I believe. The point I was trying to make is that you need a MIX of development to really succeed. They all feed off of each other. Residential with no businesses is a terrible formula downtown for all the reasons you mentioned. But businesses with no residential is what leads to a lifeless downtown where there is nothing open after 4pm. The point is, a vibrant city is a place where you can live, work and play without having to drive somewhere to do it.
I think investors get too easily caught up with the mentality of the masses (see stock market boom/bust which EVERYBODY learned sooo much from then repeated the same mistake with real estate). Somebody 6 months ago said, 'hey, office space is waaaay safer than condos right now' (and they were probably right) but now everybody is dumping condo projects like its got the plague and paying premiums for office space. All I'm saying is it probably won't be too long before that price for office space exceeds the value and people really would be better off investing in condos again, and suddenly developers will start cancelling office building projects because they got in the game too late. Just my 2 cents from observing endless cycles of repeated mistakes. A little bit of foresight and there would be a lot less cancelled projects.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #4582
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Residential may be a further burden on public services, but residential downtown is certainly not a burden on transportation networks, especially if they live and work there.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 10:15 PM   #4583
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The Vue and Water Street have less than 10 units left for sale in each building. Water street consists of 315 units, so 10 out of 315 is damn near sold out.

NONE OF THE UNITS HAVE BEEN SOLD TO INVESTORS. In fact, there is a clause in the sales contract that states the unit must be owner occupied for a year before it can be re-sold. If it is NOT owner occupied, the developer gets to repurchase the unit at the original cost. They make this very clear during the sales process.

~~~~~

I hardly think that new residential is a burden on city services. In the county perhaps, but not in the city. I say that for two reasons.

1. Most of the people purchasing new city homes don't have children, and if they do, they send them to private schools.

2. In the city all the urban infrastructure is all ready there and is underused. The gas, phone, water, and sewer lines are in place, as are the streets, sidewalks, and alleys. If anything, the influx of new residents is lessening the burden on the old ones for there are now more people in the pie to contribute to maintenance and repair.

I think when you add up the property, income, and sales taxes that most new city residents pay, there is a large net gain for the city. And that doesn't even include the phone, water, sewer, and hundreds of nuisance taxes that are applied to just about everything a person does.

I agree that business are important and I think we are holding our own quite well. It may come as a surprise to some, but the class A office vacancy rate is at the lowest level in a decade. It is now between 7 and 8%. The class A and B vacancy rates together is only 14%. That is considered low by all standards.

More that 1.5 million square feet has been absorbed in the past two years alone. That is a lot of office space and it is happening across the board including the law, education (Educate, Sylvan), medical, government, and financial service sectors. They all have expanded significantly in recent years. In addition, there has been a steady relocation of small and midsized companies from the burbs to the CBD. I think Baltimore has been doing very well indeed during the past 5 years.

Last edited by 30 Floors Up; June 29th, 2007 at 10:47 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #4584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
The Vue and Water Street have less than 10 units left for sale in each building. Water street consists of 315 units, so 10 out of 315 is damn near sold out.

NONE OF THE UNITS HAVE BEEN SOLD TO INVESTORS. In fact, there is a clause in the sales contract that states the unit must be owner occupied for a year before it can be re-sold. If it is NOT owner occupied, the developer gets to repurchase the unit at the original cost. They make this very clear during the sales process.
I bought at the Vue, and at some point we were told it was sold out, but that a few people backed out and forfeited their deposits. We signed the same agreement not to sell for 1 year, but 15% of the units were sold to investors. Out of 130 units, that is probably 19 or 20. One of the sales reps had told us that a lot of the one bedroom units went to investors.

There are two units listed on the MLS right now, so I'm assuming that's all they have left, but I guess it could be more.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 10:43 PM   #4585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phee View Post
I bought at the Vue, and at some point we were told it was sold out, but that a few people backed out and forfeited their deposits. We signed the same agreement not to sell for 1 year, but 15% of the units were sold to investors. Out of 130 units, that is probably 19 or 20. One of the sales reps had told us that a lot of the one bedroom units went to investors.

There are two units listed on the MLS right now, so I'm assuming that's all they have left, but I guess it could be more.
There are actually 11 left.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 10:57 PM   #4586
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Originally Posted by Silver Springer View Post
Building so many row homes and apartment buildings was a mistake that was made in Baltimore, the downtown was spared because it had a dominate amount of office buildings but now were throwing a lot of residential into there.

Long-term, it will be regretful if the only thing you see in Baltimore's downtown are whole bunch of residential units. I can just imagine them becoming large ghettos and so much harder to revitalize if they do go into decline, once the new wears off.
Baltimore's population increased 70 percent between 1900 and 1940 (508,957 to 733,826). Where were these people going to live, if not in "row homes and apartment buildings"?

Downtown will continue to have offices, in new buildings. Class B space in post-1904 Fire buildings will continue to be converted to educational, hotel, and residential uses (some of which will have home offices). The percentage of pedestrian commuters will increase. (Can't believe we're behind Allentown and Newark. I mean, good for them. But, dang.). The "mono-culture" of offices will become more diverse, i.e. more like Harbor East or, historically speaking, more like the folks who brought us Charles Towers in the 'Sixties (still not a slum!) as part of Charles Center envisioned. Is that bad?

Jaysus: chins up, people! What's with the Friday afternoon downer-fest?
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:07 PM   #4587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phee View Post
I bought at the Vue, and at some point we were told it was sold out, but that a few people backed out and forfeited their deposits. We signed the same agreement not to sell for 1 year, but 15% of the units were sold to investors. Out of 130 units, that is probably 19 or 20. One of the sales reps had told us that a lot of the one bedroom units went to investors.

There are two units listed on the MLS right now, so I'm assuming that's all they have left, but I guess it could be more.
Welcome to the Forum, Phee!
Please post often.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #4588
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Great job on the banner. It's about time. What a beautiful city.

And hey, at least it looks like 300 E. Pratt is gonna be 50+ for sure now!
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #4589
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CVS...

Someone was asking a couple weeks ago about the crummy state of the sign at the CVS on the corner of Lombard and Light...

I am happy to report it has been fixed with several red awnings...doesn't look half bad.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #4590
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A good little article from the BBJ:

In the shadows
As upscale Harbor East continues to grow, nearby H&S Bakery hangs on to its industrial roots
Baltimore Business Journal - June 29, 2007by Daniel J. SernovitzStaff

H&S Bakery’s distribution center on Central Avenue sits across the street from Harbor East.
View Larger Well before the glitzy commercial development known as Harbor East began to take shape along Baltimore's waterfront, baker John Paterakis Sr. and his H&S Bakery Corp. defined the industrial land on the edge of Fells Point.

To this day, the sweet, fragrant smell of bread still wafts through the air. Uniformed workers can frequently be seen fraternizing by some of the facility's large truck bays. And the unmistakable yellow and green delivery trucks with the H&S logo frequently come to dramatic halts along the narrow streets of Fells Point outside the massive bakery complex.

The site is still very much the picture of Baltimore's industrial legacy.

And yet, all around it, those industrial jobs have slowly disappeared to make way for high-end shops, top-tier office space and million-dollar condos.

The area's quick ascent has led many to wonder how long the bakery -- a classic example of old Baltimore -- can stay where it is.

In fact, the baker finds himself sandwiched between two bustling parts of Southeast Baltimore -- with Harbor East on one side and Fells Point on the other.

Michael S. Beatty, president of H&S Properties, another of Paterakis' businesses that is building Harbor East, said Paterakis realizes the land his bakery sits on could be more valuable if it were redeveloped to join Harbor East. Beatty stressed Paterakis has been unwavering in his desire to keep the bakery itself in its present location on Fleet Street between the two business districts.

At the same time, he said, Paterakis realizes property values have begun to increase in the area, largely due to the redevelopment of Harbor East. H&S now plans to relocate its distribution center at Central Avenue and Fleet Street within the next four years to allow for more development to take place between Harbor East and Fells Point.

"Clearly, over the long term, it's our intention to move the distribution center out," Beatty said. "That is the next part of Harbor East."

Paterakis' Harbor East project has attracted such big-name companies as Smith Barney, Sylvan Learning Center and, by 2009, Legg Mason Inc. It includes two hotels, several new retailers, restaurants, residences and a Whole Foods grocery store.

H&S Properties started work earlier this year on the final piece of the Harbor East development, featuring a pair of buildings that will include a Four Seasons hotel and a new office tower for Legg Mason.

Future growth
Many people believe the day will come when Harbor East adjoins Fells Point. Among them is Brant Standridge, Baltimore-area executive for North Carolina-based BB&T Corp.

The bank looked for space at Harbor East but had to settle for buying two buildings on Fleet Street across from H&S Bakery's loading docks for $1.5 million. BB&T plans to open a branch there early next year.

Standridge said he expects the bank's branch to eventually sit at the meeting point of Harbor East and Fells Point.

"We see those two converging, ultimately, but the flip side of that is we like having a good mix of industrial and residential and business," Standridge said.

H&S Bakery -- which employs about 800 local workers, according to Business Journal research -- has two main sites in the area. Its main operations, including the bakery itself, take up three blocks of Fleet Street from Caroline Street to Bethel Street and from Fleet Street to Aliceanna Street. Its distribution center is two blocks closer to Harbor East at the corner of Central Avenue, Fleet and Aliceanna streets. It is that site H&S is planning to redevelop.

H&S Bakery owns more than $5 million in real estate in the corridor leading from Central Avenue to Bethel Street at the edge of Fells Point, for the production and distribution of its breads and other products.

A Baltimore City Heritage Area study of Fells Point noted the distribution center has the potential to be redeveloped to create a stronger connection between Harbor East and Fells Point and suggested such a project could be eligible for tax credits to finance the construction.

The study described the bakery's distribution center on Central Avenue as "an unattractive concrete block warehouse that stands between the Inner Harbor East and Fells Point" and recommended it be redeveloped.

Beatty said H&S has not come up with specific plans for redevelopment of the distribution center.

Industry meets upscale
Each of H&S Bakery's sites are clustered around areas in flux. The company's distribution site sits across Central Avenue from Harbor East's 1000 Aliceanna Street, a commercial development that includes Whole Foods, Bin 604 Wine Sellers and the International Newstand. Its truck parking lot sits on Bond Street between residences and businesses like Fells Point tavern One-Eyed Mike's.

Recognizing that the area has emerged from its industrial roots, the Baltimore City Council recently adopted legislation changing the zoning designations for most of the properties in the area to reflect mostly business and residential uses. Unchanged, at the company's request, were most of H&S Bakery's properties.


Joe Makar, administrative partner for consulting firm Whitman, Requardt & Associates LLP in Fells Point, said he has been encouraged by the redevelopment that has occurred in the area, particularly at Harbor East. And he said he believes the area's mix of new construction, older homes and industry doesn't detract from the success of Harbor East.

WR&A, which provided some consulting work to H&S on the project, moved its offices from St. Paul Street in the downtown commercial district to Caroline Street in 1999.

The company's Baltimore office overlooks one of H&S Bakery's properties, a truck parking lot at Caroline and Lancaster streets.

"It fits in well, we don't even realize it's there," Makar said. "Right now, I think it's just great to have some viable businesses there."

Makar said there are many parts of the city where white-collar business meets blue-collar industry, including the Tide Point office complex in Locust Point that sits next to the active Domino Sugar Corp. plant.

A turning tide
Fells Point developer and longtime resident Dave Holmes said progress at Harbor East has primed the area's older industrial properties for future redevelopment and has already helped turn some of the older industrial buildings into more productive uses.

"Die-hard Fells Point folks will tell you they really don't want anything to do with Harbor East. We look at it as a great complement [to the area]," Holmes said. "It is a linkage that I think kind of just falls into place."

Holmes rec ently launched a major redevelopment of several properties in the 600 block of South Broadway in Fells Point extending up to Bethel Street and the edge of H&S Bakery's operations.

Beatty said H&S hopes to create a better connection between Harbor East and Little Italy, a transition Beatty said can be made as H&S moves ahead with the development of 800 Aliceanna Street. The development, at the corner of Fleet and President streets on the edge of Little Italy, includes a seven-screen cinema, a health club, and a 131-unit condominium building called The Vue.

"We believe that embracing the neighborhoods around us is the best way to enhance our project," Beatty said.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:42 PM   #4591
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Quote:
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No one is going to turn an office building into a crack house .
Clearly you are not familiar with Detroit.
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Old June 29th, 2007, 11:43 PM   #4592
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300 East

30 floors, at the end of your post you say "News at 11:00". Is that news today at 11? or next week? To tell the truth I couldnt tell if it was part of the article or what you wrote.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 12:12 AM   #4593
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Clearly you are not familiar with Detroit.
Detroit is special.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 01:35 AM   #4594
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Developers/investors are being cautious with new Baltimore development for a good reason. While we don't have a glut, we certainly would if all the proposed buildings were under construction right now. Look at Miami: what a disaster they are facing...

While I agree services are already in place for urban areas, let's not forget we're getting some pretty old infrastructure in the process! Streets, sewers, water...are pretty old and in need of repair and upgrade, which translate into major costs. So it's not like we're talking about "zero" investment.

*SIGH*

While Baltimore population fell by some 5000 residents, that number should really be a wake up call. In some ways I view it as a victory: in the past, the rate of decline has been worse. But on the negative, if we're losing 400 a month, that's about one fully occupied 20-30 storey high-rise condo building per month. Or, in other words, we need to have one new building come on line each and every month just to stabilize the population. That's a pretty significant challenge...

I think the solution is to focus on quality, and not quantity. Create an environment which is pleasant, interesting and inviting for people to live. Highlight the unique qualities of urban living, and take it from there...
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Old June 30th, 2007, 01:44 AM   #4595
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I would also add that while 1.5 million square feet of new space was developed, what was the net growth absorption rate? Nearly zero. Certainly new space is being created, but it's being occupied by companies vacating older space. Who is moving into the old space? No one. (Think Mercantile at Hopkins Plaza.)

We've really lucked-out with the recent trend of taking older Class B and C office space off the market and creating residences. Our total vacancy rate would be approximately 32% in the CBD right now. Likewise, we still need to lower our vacancy rate to about 3-5% in the CBD to even see a new signature commercial high-rise pop out of the ground.

Definitely, we need to witness new business growth in the city. Something to fuel new construction. What we have enjoyed in the last four to five years won't last for too much longer. The record growth in the residential market has only happened once before; it isn't going to happen again in our lifetimes. (At least not mine.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
The Vue and Water Street have less than 10 units left for sale in each building. Water street consists of 315 units, so 10 out of 315 is damn near sold out.

NONE OF THE UNITS HAVE BEEN SOLD TO INVESTORS. In fact, there is a clause in the sales contract that states the unit must be owner occupied for a year before it can be re-sold. If it is NOT owner occupied, the developer gets to repurchase the unit at the original cost. They make this very clear during the sales process.

~~~~~

I hardly think that new residential is a burden on city services. In the county perhaps, but not in the city. I say that for two reasons.

1. Most of the people purchasing new city homes don't have children, and if they do, they send them to private schools.

2. In the city all the urban infrastructure is all ready there and is underused. The gas, phone, water, and sewer lines are in place, as are the streets, sidewalks, and alleys. If anything, the influx of new residents is lessening the burden on the old ones for there are now more people in the pie to contribute to maintenance and repair.

I think when you add up the property, income, and sales taxes that most new city residents pay, there is a large net gain for the city. And that doesn't even include the phone, water, sewer, and hundreds of nuisance taxes that are applied to just about everything a person does.

I agree that business are important and I think we are holding our own quite well. It may come as a surprise to some, but the class A office vacancy rate is at the lowest level in a decade. It is now between 7 and 8%. The class A and B vacancy rates together is only 14%. That is considered low by all standards.

More that 1.5 million square feet has been absorbed in the past two years alone. That is a lot of office space and it is happening across the board including the law, education (Educate, Sylvan), medical, government, and financial service sectors. They all have expanded significantly in recent years. In addition, there has been a steady relocation of small and midsized companies from the burbs to the CBD. I think Baltimore has been doing very well indeed during the past 5 years.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 02:19 AM   #4596
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Let's hope this get's started

Article said developer will start construction in 2008 but you know how developers miss deadlines. I'm fine with 10 Inner Harbor going office. The VP said in an article that he is getting alot of calls from companies in DC, New York,etc.. that want to locate here and setup offices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
Here is a teaser from next weeks BBJ:

News American site in flux

Baltimore Business Journal - June 29, 2007by Daniel J. Sernovitz, Staff

Developers UrbanAmerica LP and Doracon LLC are getting ready to launch revised plans for the former News American site at Pratt and South streets in downtown Baltimore.

David Westerlund, project manager with Doracon, said the joint venture is finalizing plans for the 50-plus-story tower that is set to include a luxury hotel flag, multi-level retail and a mix of condominium units selling for as much as $1 million or more.....


NEWS AT 11:00!
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Old June 30th, 2007, 02:19 AM   #4597
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Originally Posted by 30 Floors Up View Post
NONE OF THE UNITS HAVE BEEN SOLD TO INVESTORS. In fact, there is a clause in the sales contract that states the unit must be owner occupied for a year before it can be re-sold.
You find this type of clause in many new condos. It doesn't stop people from purchasing the units as investments. We've seen it all over Arlington and Alexandria. It's very easy to skirt such wording.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 02:44 AM   #4598
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Originally Posted by Phee View Post
I bought at the Vue, and at some point we were told it was sold out, but that a few people backed out and forfeited their deposits. We signed the same agreement not to sell for 1 year, but 15% of the units were sold to investors. Out of 130 units, that is probably 19 or 20. One of the sales reps had told us that a lot of the one bedroom units went to investors.

There are two units listed on the MLS right now, so I'm assuming that's all they have left, but I guess it could be more.
I was looking at the Long & Foster Realty web page for condos in Baltimore city over $800,000 and I noticed that the Vue has one that is listed for $7 million! That would of course be a penthouse on 2 levels but then I thought who in Baltimore could afford to shell out that kind of money for a condo? Also I wonder what will happen to the views from the Vue when the new Four Seasons and Legg Mason towers are built because both of those buildings will be taller than the Vue or have they factored that into the position of the Vue with respect to the 2 newer towers? By the way, I do like the look of the Vue and it will sit smack dab in the center of a really lively area, especially with the Landmark theatres that they are building along side of it. A very good choice indeed Phee.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 05:05 AM   #4599
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oprah!
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Old June 30th, 2007, 01:49 PM   #4600
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http://www.sber.com/downloads/State_Center_GT.pdf
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