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Old March 4th, 2007, 11:03 PM   #1581
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You can argue anyway you want to acheive your desired conclusion. There's no way to ever really know what would have been best until the end of the developments. But, unlike books and film, there is no end, life just goes on....

How many licks does it take......the would may never know!

Nate
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Old March 4th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #1582
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i hate to see the disrespect for jim rouse. its like saying ben franklin shoulda been smarter faster or that edison should've invented the lightbulb sooner. rouse, like franklin and edison was working with the knowledge of the day. that doesn't, nor should it, diminish the kudos he should receive for his vision and atempt to bring his visions to fruition. his success at cross keys drove him to develop columbia. at the time, columbia, even in the conceptual stage was cutting edge. imagine being a white man in the 50's with the balls to propose a planned community where ALL races would be housed equally....
I have to qualify my objections to Rouse's developments. It's similar to how Franklin thought for a long time we would eventually reconcile with the Brits or how Edison thought we should only use low voltage direct current and that light bulbs were the only electrical thing people would ever have. All visionaries have one foot in the present and one in the future (unlike most people who have one or both feet in the past). Rouse's plans were his visionary aspect but what among the things he planned, some worked and some didn't. When he was working, almost nobody held out much hope for big cities and Columbia's suburban-ness reflects that. He made most of his career out of suburban malls. It wasn't until fairly late that he started having some feeling for cities (the Harborplace era). Fortunately by that time he had a huge reputation and he could lead a parade back in the city like few other developers.
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Old March 4th, 2007, 11:39 PM   #1583
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The Central Light Rail is not a viable HRT corridor. In fact, it may not even be an economically viable LRT corridor. However, commuter rail would be quite good fit (as it once was) if and when we can get the Howard St Tunnel retrofitted for transit. It would necessarily have fewer stations, of course.

24/7 operations would be nice, but we're still trying to ensure quality service on the hours that it does run.

Nate
Just a question on that one -- how would one retrofit the Howard St. tunnel (a) given that it is single-tracked, and might not be able to accommodate trains going in two directions, and (b) without ripping up Howard St. (for repairs, as well as station construction), which is a lot of what TRAC wants to avoid? Didn't everyone basically agree that the Howard St. tunnel is a conundrum, solutions to which will necessarily involve major inconveniences and disruptions to the transit system?
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Old March 5th, 2007, 12:35 AM   #1584
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i hate to see the disrespect for jim rouse. its like saying ben franklin shoulda been smarter faster or that edison should've invented the lightbulb sooner. rouse, like franklin and edison was working with the knowledge of the day. that doesn't, nor should it, diminish the kudos he should receive for his vision and atempt to bring his visions to fruition. his success at cross keys drove him to develop columbia. at the time, columbia, even in the conceptual stage was cutting edge. imagine being a white man in the 50's with the balls to propose a planned community where ALL races would be housed equally. all people would mingle. the details put forth in columbia are meticulous to an insane degree. the reason that the mnailboxes are clustered at the end of the streets or cul de sacs isn't because its cheep and efficient. it was to ensure neighbors would meet each other and talk to each other when they went to get the mail! it is the success of columbia's design that made people want to move there. eventually there were more people wanting to move to columbia than there were houses availible. so other developers bought adjacent land and continued to develop, but not in the same vein as rouse. now its just one big ugly mess of sprawl. did rouse's company also build shopping malls? sure. the company that beared his name was indeed a development company. but the man himself was tireless in his effort to provide quality, low cost housing to the masses. lets also not forget that harborplace (whether you like it or hate it...i hate it) has almost single handedly transformed this city. lets face it...its a shopping mall on the waterfront. but for some reason people from nebraska or iowa or wherever like the place!!!! in this, the "monumental city", there should be errected a plaza with statues dedicated to rouse, larry reich (planning director from 1966-1989) and walter soundheim. soundheim has his little place in history at the base of the world trade center. go visit...its cool. in fact, all of these men have small dedications to their minds somewhere. but none of the memorials are as big as the men themselves.
Thank you! I know a lot of people here have little good to say about Columbia, but I think it gets a bad rap. I work for the HoCo school system. So many of my co-workers grew up in Columbia. For them, saying anything bad about Columbia is blasphemy. They grew up around people of all different races, religions, and incomes, and feel grateful for being given that experience. One of my friends, an African American woman, married a white man in the early 80's. They settled in Columbia because they knew no one would bat an eyelash. Even if you look at the Columbia high schools today (Wilde Lake, Oakland Mills, Long Reach, etc.), you see amazing diversity. All races, religions, and income groups are represented. Some kids come to school from subsidized housing, others come to school from $700,000 houses.

Now as for the NIMBY's that want to block denser development in Town Center, I agree with many that they don't get it. Columbia does need to develop a viable downtown.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 12:46 AM   #1585
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Does anyone know who or what was responsible for the complete disconnection between the Metro and Owings Mills Mall? Wasn't the Mall a Rouse project?

That disconnection is like something from a sci-fi movie and one of the most ridiculous things I've ever experienced as a pedestrian going from one place to another. I don't think that mall should have been built; I think it's only successfull as TOD and mixed-use which it is now becoming. That may be its saving grace.

Nate
rouse did build te mall in OM, but that entire area around the metro station is being redeveloped with office , condo and townhouse development. i was out there a few weeks ago and was blown away (lived there for a year or so). i belive that brown is behind this redevelopment???

http://www.davidsbrown.com/commercia...ro-centre.html
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Old March 5th, 2007, 12:56 AM   #1586
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Does anyone know who or what was responsible for the complete disconnection between the Metro and Owings Mills Mall? Wasn't the Mall a Rouse project?

That disconnection is like something from a sci-fi movie and one of the most ridiculous things I've ever experienced as a pedestrian going from one place to another. I don't think that mall should have been built; I think it's only successfull as TOD and mixed-use which it is now becoming. That may be its saving grace.

Nate
I once asked someone (don't want to name names) at the MTA that question. The response was they did not want to directly serve a shopping center. It would show favortism to a private business. Don't know if that is the actual rationale, but that is what I was told.

Congradulations to the Terps on a fine season. Look forward to a great showing in the big dance.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 01:48 AM   #1587
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Just a question on that one -- how would one retrofit the Howard St. tunnel (a) given that it is single-tracked, and might not be able to accommodate trains going in two directions, and (b) without ripping up Howard St. (for repairs, as well as station construction), which is a lot of what TRAC wants to avoid? Didn't everyone basically agree that the Howard St. tunnel is a conundrum, solutions to which will necessarily involve major inconveniences and disruptions to the transit system?
That's true.

If it's rebuilt for freight, with more hazmats running more frequently, it would happen sooner and would serve no socio-economic benefit to the city, other than maintain the status quo and prevent more business loss to the port. Local businesses, commuters and residents would go through hell without them redeeming a benefit later on.

Eventually, if nothing is done, the HST will collapse (maybe 40 years?). We might as well do rebuild it at some point before then.

I can't quite remember how it worked years ago when trains did run through it (I wasn't around then! ). It was double tracked at the time. The freight trains are taller than most commuter trains, IIRC. (I'll check with my TRAC friends). Also, commuter runs infrequently enough so that sections of single-track may not necessarily prohibit service--like the CLR in its early years.

Nate
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Old March 5th, 2007, 01:57 AM   #1588
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Thank you! I know a lot of people here have little good to say about Columbia, but I think it gets a bad rap. I work for the HoCo school system. So many of my co-workers grew up in Columbia. For them, saying anything bad about Columbia is blasphemy. They grew up around people of all different races, religions, and incomes, and feel grateful for being given that experience. One of my friends, an African American woman, married a white man in the early 80's. They settled in Columbia because they knew no one would bat an eyelash. Even if you look at the Columbia high schools today (Wilde Lake, Oakland Mills, Long Reach, etc.), you see amazing diversity. All races, religions, and income groups are represented. Some kids come to school from subsidized housing, others come to school from $700,000 houses.
yep, alot of diversity. my wife & i currently live in The Whitney condominium community located right across from Columbia Town Center. the diversity is great!
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:00 AM   #1589
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I wouldn't take the criticism of 10IH to mean that we don't support the tower or even that we aren't appreciative of what it will do for the city. But if 10IH is going to be the signature of the city, and all signs are pointing to that at the moment, doesn't it make sense to desire a design that stands out? 10IH is a nice tower, but it could very well be just another tower in Houston or Dallas or Atlanta, or even NYC or Philly. We've been stuck with a run-of-the-mill signature tower for thirty years, and we've all seen what image that has given us.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" aside, 10IH is a good tower, but it's not a great tower. Baltimore deserves a great tower. And with a $400 million price tag and a world-class architect, we should be able to get one.
Let's wait and see what the new design is, and if it sucks, then we can cry about how great the old design was. But we have an opportunity to trade in a decent tower for possibly a fantastic one. We should wait and see what ARCWheeler has for us. They haven't really let us down before.
Yes there are better designs but If 10IH just so happens to be built as is I wouldn't cry about it, I'd be quite content. Many of the buildings in the cities you mentioned are beautiful signature towers that share alot in common but still define the city because of their repsective locations and the buildings they are next to. I wouldn't mind if some of them were in Baltimore.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:04 AM   #1590
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I wouldn't take the criticism of 10IH to mean that we don't support the tower or even that we aren't appreciative of what it will do for the city. But if 10IH is going to be the signature of the city, and all signs are pointing to that at the moment, doesn't it make sense to desire a design that stands out? 10IH is a nice tower, but it could very well be just another tower in Houston or Dallas or Atlanta, or even NYC or Philly. We've been stuck with a run-of-the-mill signature tower for thirty years, and we've all seen what image that has given us.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" aside, 10IH is a good tower, but it's not a great tower. Baltimore deserves a great tower. And with a $400 million price tag and a world-class architect, we should be able to get one.
Let's wait and see what the new design is, and if it sucks, then we can cry about how great the old design was. But we have an opportunity to trade in a decent tower for possibly a fantastic one. We should wait and see what ARCWheeler has for us. They haven't really let us down before.
As always, that's very well said. What would you say speaks louder to the visitors and residents of the city, height or architectural beauty? What is the trade-off?
Also, I don't know if you've seen the towers in Atlanta, but I wouldn't mind having any one of them in Baltimore. They all look gorgeous (except for the Georgia-Pacific and the Bell South buildings). Some would fit especially well like One Atlantic Center:
image hosted on flickr

Despite the fact that that would fit best, I think Baltimore needs something like 1180 Peachtree to send a different kind of statement. This one screams "bring your business here!":
image hosted on flickr

In conclusion, the glass of 10IH's current design sends a very similar message. It's statement can't be overestimated.

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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:15 AM   #1591
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I thought the idea of building the hotel a mile away AT THAT TIME was a terrible idea... Especially since it was just an island out there for several years..

But look at how Inner Harbor East has grown around and because of that hotel, and think about how much more it will grow... can we really complain???

Besides, we are getting our west side hotel now.. sure theyre both ugly, but I think if we look at it now and in to the future.. it was a good idea to build it there... When IHE and the CBD are connected one day, we'll remember it all started with that convention center hotel built a mile away from the convention center..

Also.. at night, that hotel is lit up through the windows of paying guests.. Being a mile away didnt hurt business for it as most people thought it would. (it didnt help the convention center though. BUT, i dont know if you remember, but at the time, some people were pushing for two hotels to be built simultaneously, both on the east and the west, but naysayers were saying the city couldn't handle 2. Once again, people lacking faith in our GREAT city)

its not a question of lacking faith. its not a question of baltimore not being a quality city. it IS a question of public funds being used to build something (or giving tax credits) that isn't what it was billed to be. i don't mind using bond isses for a convention venter hotel as long as its somewhere close to the convention center!!!!! i get pissed off when my already rediculously high tax dollars are used to build a hotel that's billed to be a convention center hotel that is a mile or so away from where it should be. the fact is that the marriott is speciffically designed to house a casino. at the time of its development, slots were a newand probable passable issue to the state. its still probable, but the idea of turning the inner harbor into atlantic city is fearsome. has anyone here been to atlantic city latley?!?!?!?!? its awful to say the least. i don't have an issue with slots at the tracks....lets leave gambling to the places that already have gambling. but expanding it to other parts of the city is NOT the way to go. shmoke allowed the marriot to be built because of the dollars patarakis threw at him. yes, it is successfull as a hotel. however it is NOT successfull as a convention center hotel. if it was, we, as a city, would not be building the hilton convention hotel. the need is still there. the hotel isn't.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:15 AM   #1592
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Thank you! I know a lot of people here have little good to say about Columbia, but I think it gets a bad rap. I work for the HoCo school system. So many of my co-workers grew up in Columbia. For them, saying anything bad about Columbia is blasphemy. They grew up around people of all different races, religions, and incomes, and feel grateful for being given that experience. One of my friends, an African American woman, married a white man in the early 80's. They settled in Columbia because they knew no one would bat an eyelash. Even if you look at the Columbia high schools today (Wilde Lake, Oakland Mills, Long Reach, etc.), you see amazing diversity. All races, religions, and income groups are represented. Some kids come to school from subsidized housing, others come to school from $700,000 houses.

Now as for the NIMBY's that want to block denser development in Town Center, I agree with many that they don't get it. Columbia does need to develop a viable downtown.
I don't think anyone is questioning the social values of Columbia, most people are concerned about the aging built environment, it can definitely use some work. My biggest beef with Columbia is that it's sooo suburban, way too much residential development around just a mall, then people want to claim it's urban like Silver Spring or Bethesda, no way man. Someone mentioned that Columbia has only reached 4 million out of the planned 7 million sq/ft of office space propsed from 1960. Outside a few features I don't see how it's any different than the areas around Lakeforest. My biggest fear is that it will end up like Montgomery Village.

I've said this before, I'm not saying Columbia should have highrises all over the place but a more grid like urban design where midrises of about 5-10 stories are pushed to the street edge instead of the "tower in the park/garden style" look. I would like to see the mall demolished and turn into a mxed use community, emphasis on office space.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:17 AM   #1593
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I don't think anyone is questioning the social values of Columbia, most people are concerned about the aging built environment, it can definitely use some work. My biggest beef with Columbia is that it's sooo suburban, way too much residential development around just a mall. Someone mentioned that Columbia has only reached 4 million out of the planned 7 million sq/ft of office space propsed from 1960. Outside a few features I don't see how it's any different than the areas around Lakeforest. My biggest fear is that it will end up like Montgomery Village.

I would like to see the mall demolished and turn into a mxed use community, emphasis on office space.
Why has the concept of building residential over a mall never been tried?
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:28 AM   #1594
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I don't think anyone is questioning the social values of Columbia, most people are concerned about the aging built environment, it can definitely use some work. My biggest beef with Columbia is that it's sooo suburban, way too much residential development around just a mall. Someone mentioned that Columbia has only reached 4 million out of the planned 7 million sq/ft of office space propsed from 1960. Outside a few features I don't see how it's any different than the areas around Lakeforest. My biggest fear is that it will end up like Montgomery Village.

I would like to see the mall demolished and turn into a mxed use community, emphasis on office space.
i thought it was jim rouse himself who was questioned. it was proposed that all he did was build malls. i had to stand up for the man. still, one can't look at the outcome of the planning without realizing that it wasn't the plan. it was not the plan to house people around a mall. the idea was to provide a mall for the people who lived there. we all need to buy dishes and jeans somewhere!!!!!
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:29 AM   #1595
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Why has the concept of building residential over a mall never been tried?
I don't know, but I'd prefer a town center like development instead, like National Harbor.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 02:31 AM   #1596
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i thought it was jim rouse himself who was questioned. it was proposed that all he did was build malls. i had to stand up for the man. still, one can't look at the outcome of the planning without realizing that it wasn't the plan. it was not the plan to house people around a mall. the idea was to provide a mall for the people who lived there. we all need to buy dishes and jeans somewhere!!!!!
More importantly people need a high paying job so they can afford those things.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 07:06 AM   #1597
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More importantly people need a high paying job so they can afford those things.

no one can 'develope' those jobs. they are market driven.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 07:16 AM   #1598
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I wouldn't take the criticism of 10IH to mean that we don't support the tower or even that we aren't appreciative of what it will do for the city. But if 10IH is going to be the signature of the city, and all signs are pointing to that at the moment, doesn't it make sense to desire a design that stands out? 10IH is a nice tower, but it could very well be just another tower in Houston or Dallas or Atlanta, or even NYC or Philly. We've been stuck with a run-of-the-mill signature tower for thirty years, and we've all seen what image that has given us.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" aside, 10IH is a good tower, but it's not a great tower. Baltimore deserves a great tower. And with a $400 million price tag and a world-class architect, we should be able to get one.
Let's wait and see what the new design is, and if it sucks, then we can cry about how great the old design was. But we have an opportunity to trade in a decent tower for possibly a fantastic one. We should wait and see what ARCWheeler has for us. They haven't really let us down before.
My prediction is that history will repeat itself and the 10H will not become fruitation just like the other failed Upscale projects of the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

If the comunist left wing extremist beauracrats of Baltimore/Maryland ever becomes EXTINCT then there will be Major improvements in Baltimore and an improvment of quality of Upscale Skyscrapers along woith Upscale Retail Regional Malls throughout Baltimore City.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 07:25 AM   #1599
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Does anyone know who or what was responsible for the complete disconnection between the Metro and Owings Mills Mall? Wasn't the Mall a Rouse project?

That disconnection is like something from a sci-fi movie and one of the most ridiculous things I've ever experienced as a pedestrian going from one place to another. I don't think that mall should have been built; I think it's only successfull as TOD and mixed-use which it is now becoming. That may be its saving grace.

Nate
Another Bull Shit form of Maryland hate by wishing that Maryland should never compete against Virginia by building Multi-Level Indoor Upscale Regional MEGA Malls like Tyson's Corner.

The more you spew your Hatred against Baltimore and its Suburbs with making anti-Upscale and anti-Business remarks the more I believe that you are not a true Marylander with the agenda of encouraging the sabatoge of every form of Upscale Retail, Highway Growth, and Business/Economic/Revenue Growth in Maryland.
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Old March 5th, 2007, 07:28 AM   #1600
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it was more than a mistake...it was outright corruption that the marriott deal went through as a 'convention center' hotel. hmmmm...lets build a convention center hotel a mile away from the convention center!?!?!?!? go back and look at eh politics involved...


...i hated shmoke then...i still do.
Are you sure it wasn't because he was African American, becacuse O'Malley was FAR worst of a Mayor than Schmoke ever was.
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