Orlando Light Railway

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by miamicanes

Well, the (multi-)million-dollar question: how many people would genuinely be likely to ride a commuter line (or even light rail-like line) through southwest Jacksonville? One thing lots of enthusiasts lose sight of is the fact that "anything" is NOT better than "nothing yet".

That number may have been answered. JTA believes this corridor is so strong in ridership that they are also trying to build a $125 million dollar BRT line that parallels six miles of it, which is the most foolish thing I've ever heard of. Now they do have a feasibility study done for it. This same report originally suggested light rail in 2001, but JTA switched to busways believing this was cheaper and easier to do, than talk with CSX about using the "A" line.

Well the Orlando deal now gives them a instruction manual on how to negotiate a for a rail line that's not nearly as important as it was seven years ago.

If something that's seriously questionable gets built just for the sake of building something, and it flops miserably, it's going to taint every other project that gets proposed for the next 25-50 years. So that when the day comes that someone seriously proposes launching commuter rail south to St. Augustine along FEC in conjunction with intercity passenger rail, opponents will point at the dismal performance of the original line and kill its chances of approval.

That's what scares me about BRT possibly being constructed first. The last thing any mass transit system needs is a parallel one competing head to head for ridership. Point blank, given the rail infrastructure is already in place and there's railcar technology out there now that eliminates the need to electrify a line, it would be cheaper for JTA to scratch the concept of BRT down this corridor and focus only on rail. Unfortunately, right now they want to do both.

It's even worse if they try to build a questionable line "on the cheap" with minimal service (like they wanted to do with a southern extension of Tri-Rail in Miami), because then the few people who would have used it, won't. IMHO, unless a proposed rail service can rationally justify 10-minute headways during peak service, and 20-minute headways during off-peak hours, with service every day from predawn until 1am, it's not worth bothering with because there just isn't enough demand to justify it. With longer headways, you'll lose all but the captive riders (who would have ridden a bus anyway, because by definition captive riders have no other choice and will use whatever is available to them).

When I mention cheap, I mean in relation to what Jacksonville is about to spend now, that will run parallel to that line. Cheap in the form of existing duel track rail infrastructure already in place and the elimination of the need to purchase right-of-way and fund the construction of an expressway for buses paralleling the tracks. Headways.....that's operations and maintenance, which is another story altogether right now.

In summary: a transit line with infrequent service along a marginal route is worse than useless, because it sucks money away from worthwhile projects and diminishes the likelihood that they'll ever come to fruition.

I agree. I also believe that we could do this locally, if we had the political will, without one red cent from the State or Federal Government (aka. Houston's starter light rail line.).

To get a better idea of the situation were facing up here in Jax, check out the transit page on www.MetroJacksonville.com. We've been heavily involved in tracking this situation for the past two years.

Also to get a better feel on a rail line that serves as a hybrid commuter rail/light rail service type system, check out this link.

New Jersey RiverLine
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/riverline.html

Ottawa O-Train

This 5 mile/5 stop pilot DMU commuter rail system was constructed for $4.2 million/mile in 2001.


Its a form of commuter rail (using DMUs) that allows these trains to run on existing tracks. Passenger service travels during the day and freight at night on the same tracks. This type of system, which has been used in Europe for decades, costs a lot less than building traditional light rail if your existing tracks run places where residents live, work & play. In Jax, excluding the beach, they do.

New Jersey RiverLine

[miamicanes]

To go the DMU route, it will HAVE to be Colorado Railcar, and not the ones used in Ottawa or New Jersey. Remember, FDOT wants to use CSX for Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville service. The problem is, the Bombardier DMU (the red one in the pics of the Ottawa O-Train) isn't FRA-approved to run in mixed traffic with the intercity trains. If Jacksonville buys the Bombardier trains, they'll have to either replace them all when intercity service to Orlando & Tampa begins, or end the intercity "Jacksonville" train at the same station where the Jacksonville local line ends, and make everyone heading downtown transfer to the local trains for the remainder of the trip (not a big deal to anyone who lives in Jacksonville and probably doesn't live downtown, but a VERY big deal to people making business day trips to something downtown and/or at the convention center because it would add at least a half hour to their travel time).

Speaking of which... I do hope that whomever's in charge up in Jacksonville has the good sense to build a new downtown passenger terminal that's somehow incorporated into the convention center (which itself used to BE the train station)... at the very least, right next to it. If nothing else, because the convention center is probably near the top of the list of places people making business day trips will actually be going...

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by miamicanes

To go the DMU route, it will HAVE to be Colorado Railcar, and not the ones used in Ottawa or New Jersey. Remember, FDOT wants to use CSX for Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville service. The problem is, the Bombardier DMU (the red one in the pics of the Ottawa O-Train) isn't FRA-approved to run in mixed traffic with the intercity trains.

Right, instead of mixed traffic during the same times, the DMUs would have to run during the day and freight in the middle of the night, similar to what's being developed in San Diego and Austin. Btw, can the Colorado Railcar DMU operate in a similar fashion to New Jersey's RiverLine? By that, I mean being able to serve as both a local mode of transit and a commuter source between cities.

If Jacksonville buys the Bombardier trains, they'll have to either replace them all when intercity service to Orlando & Tampa begins, or end the intercity "Jacksonville" train at the same station where the Jacksonville local line ends, and make everyone heading downtown transfer to the local trains for the remainder of the trip (not a big deal to anyone who lives in Jacksonville and probably doesn't live downtown, but a VERY big deal to people making business day trips to something downtown and/or at the convention center because it would add at least a half hour to their travel time).

Interesting. How realistic is this Tampa-Orlando-Jax thing? How many years are we out from seeing any real service? What about Amtrak?

Speaking of which... I do hope that whomever's in charge up in Jacksonville has the good sense to build a new downtown passenger terminal that's somehow incorporated into the convention center (which itself used to BE the train station)... at the very least, right next to it. If nothing else, because the convention center is probably near the top of the list of places people making business day trips will actually be going...

Yeah, JTA has some plans. Personally, I think this transportation center is too spread out to make transfering between different modes efficient.

[miamicanes]

I'm putting the likelihood of Miami-Tampa-Orlando happening no later than 1 year after MIC opens (circa 2012) at around 80%. Assuming FDOT's numbers are solid, there's really no reason why the legislature wouldn't approve it, because at worst it'll be revenue neutral, and at best could turn a profit.

I'd put the chances of it being extended to Jacksonville within 5 years of launch at around 60-75%... with the main thing likely to reduce the odds being indecision as to the best route.

My prediction is that FDOT will ultimately go with CSX via Palatka, just because the track is there, and apparently in good condition. Someday, when intercity service begins along FEC from Jacksonville to Miami, off-peak service will probably take the FEC route from Orlando to Jacksonville since it will hit more cities directly and increase ridership per train. HOWEVER, I don't think the CSX tracks will go to waste. Instead, FDOT will probably improve the track between Jacksonville and Tallahassee to support 125mph for much of the route, and add a new express route that runs from Tampa to Kissimmee/Disney, continues to Orlando Intermodal Center, then runs nonstop all the way up along CSX to western Jacksonville & proceeds without stopping to Tallahassee (total Tampa-Tally time < 5 hours). To be viable for Tampa traffic, it would have to skip the stop in Jacksonville (or at least stop ONLY at one station somewhere in southwest Jacksonville) because the detour downtown would add at least a half hour to the total time.

[Hanshin-Tigress]

Orlando needs to make the most modern 'cool' high tech railway in the US!!

[HARTride 2012]

Agreed, but the cost will probably outweigh that posibility.