18-lane highway going up in Houston

[bigboyz2004]

Originally Posted by ajmstilt

In defense of at least part of Texas:

DFW metro

DART serving Dallas currently has 45 miles of light rail with 48 more miles scheduled to open by 2013. (Approximately 43 miles of additional rail service by 2030) Dallas also has a working trolly line undergoing expansion serving "Uptown"

There is commuter rail running between Fort Worth and Dallas, The Fort Worth T is adding a commuter rail line from DT Fort Worth to DFW ariport, and Denton is buildign a commuter rail line from Denton to meet up with DART.

If I remember the number correctly The DFW metro has over 225 miles of rail mass transit built, underconstruction or in planning stages.

When I was visiting my friend in Ft Worth we rode that commuter line to Dallas. It's called the Trinity Rail Express. It was a very nice ride. Glad to see D/FW doing it big with rail and expanding the system.

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by adajaw

The gasoline that fuels cars is just one of many products refined from oil. Refined oil produces many common house-hold items. To name a few...

• Plastics/polymers: Consider all of the products made with plastics...computers, cell phones, cd players, tv's, contact lenses, food/beverage packaging, fax machines, copy machines, medical equipment, shower curtains, umbrellas, luggage, roofing, diapers, blenders, credit cards, hairdryers...I think you get the point.
• Heating Oil: Over 1/3 of homes in the Northeast use heating oil to warm their homes.
• Lubricants: Machines, industrial factories, anything with a gear needs lubricants to run smoothly.
• Jet Fuel: There goes the airline industry and our way of life. Imagine the effect on the US and global economy if transportation (land, sea and air) was crippled.
• Chemicals: Petrol-chemicals are used to make pharmaceuticals (aspirin, antihistamines, etc.), house paints, ink, insecticides, fertilizers, glue, lipsticks, perfumes, pantyhose, synthetic fabrics...I could go on...

Excellent point. I should think it would be a heck of alot harder to replace those uses. I don't think we're going to be figuring out how to make plastic from celluosic switchgrass or something anytime soon. Alternate energy may well be the easier solution.

[rantanamo]

Just wait until they get a hold of the LBJ renovation. 10 mainlanes, 2 HOV, 4 tunnel lanes + 6-8 frontage. Possible 2 lanes of tunnel under the frontage in the below grade area. This is in north Dallas. Hopefully the fed takes that money away.

[Billpa]

Two things that I don't think matter about this situation.

1. How much oil is left in the world
2. Whether or not the 18 lanes are all on one road or are spread out between freeway and frontage roads.

First of all, all those lanes are basically the same road system, so it's an 18-lane system....and for me that's way too much wasted space- I mean, if Houston keeps growing perhaps in ten years' time they'll construct a 40 lane highway and people will defend that as well.

Secondly, even if oil is in good supply that doesn't mean we should continue headlong into the future driving our cars longer and longer distances to and from work or wherever. Maybe, just maybe it might be a good idea for even HOUSTON, TEXAS to have a look at some more mass transit. I know, those cowboys hate that sort of thing...heaven forbid they give up some of that frontier spirit or whatever it is, but it's just possible there might be a better way.

[jmancuso]

houston IS working on extending its mass transit (LRT, BRT and possibly commuter rail). it also has one of the largest and most extensive bus systems in the country...a few of those 18 lanes are reserved for HOV traffic. also, the new expansion is able to be retro-fitted with either a commuter rail or light rail in the center lanes.

rather than bitch about houston building an 18 lane freeway...come up with a more realistic and viable alternative for those who have to commute into town using that route everyday other than implore they abandon their cars outright and move into a tiny overpriced apartment inside the loop.

[Greens!]

amen

[Trae]

Originally Posted by jmancuso

houston IS working on extending its mass transit (LRT, BRT and possibly commuter rail). it also has one of the largest and most extensive bus systems in the country...a few of those 18 lanes are reserved for HOV traffic. also, the new expansion is able to be retro-fitted with either a commuter rail or light rail in the center lanes.

rather than bitch about houston building an 18 lane freeway...come up with a more realistic and viable alternative for those who have to commute into town using that route everyday other than implore they abandon their cars outright and move into a tiny overpriced apartment inside the loop.

People on here will still come up with some bullshit about Houston, even though you said this.

[latennisguy]

Originally Posted by jmancuso

houston IS working on extending its mass transit (LRT, BRT and possibly commuter rail). it also has one of the largest and most extensive bus systems in the country...a few of those 18 lanes are reserved for HOV traffic. also, the new expansion is able to be retro-fitted with either a commuter rail or light rail in the center lanes.

rather than bitch about houston building an 18 lane freeway...come up with a more realistic and viable alternative for those who have to commute into town using that route everyday other than implore they abandon their cars outright and move into a tiny overpriced apartment inside the loop.

tiny and overpriced? haha...anything inside the loop is still so freakin' cheap!! well, at least compared to other parts of the U.S. I've been living here in Houston for a few months, and honestly everything is like dirt cheap.

[Billpa]

Originally Posted by jmancuso

houston IS working on extending its mass transit (LRT, BRT and possibly commuter rail). .

"Possibly" commuter rail? I think if its already been decided that 18 lane road systems are the way forward, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for much of a commuter rail system....unfortunately.

Originally Posted by jmancuso

rather than bitch about houston building an 18 lane freeway...come up with a more realistic and viable alternative for those who have to commute into town using that route everyday other than implore they abandon their cars outright and move into a tiny overpriced apartment inside the loop

I think many people have suggested other ways to deal with Houston's woes other than highway building. I mean there are bigger metro areas in this country, and around the world as well, WITHOUT 18 lane highways so we all know it can be done.

Let's put it this way...I don't think this is doing enough to get people off the roads:
image hosted on flickr

[Greens!]

[Billpa]

Better late than never. When's all that going to get built? And WILL it get built?

[Greens!]

Originally Posted by Trae

People on here will still come up with some bullshit about Houston, even though you said this.

You were right.

[AndySocks]

I honestly can't imagine living in the suburbs of a city without adequate commuter rail. Living in the suburbs is bad enough... but now I need to drive ALL THE WAY DOWNTOWN!?!?!? instead of just to the station? Ridiculous...

Cowboys or not, why would anyone want to drive into their CBD every single morning of their lives? That's crazy talk. At least you can read or play videogames or anything to pass the time on the railroad.

[Billpa]

Originally Posted by Greens!

You were right.

Nothing personal, I've heard a lot of good things about Houston- I'm just talking about this aspect of the city- building wider and wider highways while seemingly doing as little as possible with rail, short of having zero passenger rail. I'm sorry if this is viewed as Houston-bashing, but we all come here with our opinions, me included.

[Greens!]

Whether or not you agree with the suburban lifestyle is irrelevant. The fact is that there are plenty of people who live that live and are happy with it. Aesthetics are not always their top priority and they likely have the option to live in the city but choose not to for their own reasons.

Also, as said before, Houston is a relatively new city. In 1930 there were less than 300,000 in the metro. Now there are around 5.5 million. It is one if the ten fastest growing cities in the English speaking world. This means that there is a need to expand EVERYTHING, which is what they are doing. They are expanding busses, rail, freeways, roads, and the port. They know their population (which you people who think we are cowboys obviously don't), and keep them in mind when they expand.

Houston does not zone and honestly, many people like it that way. All of the inner loop infill projects and the new walkable neighborhoods are done by developers. This means that the citizens are changing the city rather than the city changing the citizens. Also, with no zoning, people don't live as far away from the store or their job as you might suspect. Everything is mixed up pretty well and it is usually not inconvenient to walk unless it is 95+ degrees outside.

Finally, Houston is decentralized. Relatively speaking, hardly anyone works downtown anymore. All if these improvements will happen in due time. The city knows that and is not going to throw money where it isn’t needed. The freeways we have move cars efficiently and quickly and that is what they are intended to do.

I know the rail argument and agree with it but I don’t see why people criticize the city when it is simply trying to make things better for its citizens.

Houston is not NYC or Philadelphia and is never going to be. And with that I have written enough to piss off anyone and will stop.

[Sabretooth]

Face it, and this applies as much to any other city in the US as it does to Houston:

We bitch about taxes, or the price of milk and/or gas, yet our overall desire for personal transportation and an oversized backyard in a cookie cutter house on a loop-de-doop cul-de-sac has locked us into what is probably the societally most expensive form of living situation that could possibly have come up. Think about it. Think how much your car costs you alone (sale price, financing, insurance, registration, fuel, accessories, repair, depreciation, etc.) and compare it to how much you pay in all taxes each year to all but the Federal level. You're basically paying that for the privilege of sitting in traffic twice a day rather than sitting somewhere somebody else's ass may have landed. Maybe we should stop compaining about gas.

• We want open land with a big backyard, but as close to work as possible. Therefore we'll pay outrageous prices for it, while our actual standard of living is not noticeably better than most other neighborhoods.
• This requires construction of a new subdivision. Now, because we like all those curves and abhor to living in one of those 1940s vintage subdivisions with gridded streets (or heaven forfend, a city block!), we can only fit maybe 60% of the total number of living units possible with a grid and a still reasonable size lot. Because of this, we're getting less bang for our buck for the cost of roadway construction, basically more road for less traffic.
• Don't forget, the loopy streets are also pedestrian-hostile in terms of actually getting somewhere, so instead of running (literally) to the corner store for that overpriced gallon of milk, we'll make the 5 mile, 1/2 gallon or more of gas trip to the grocery store for just that milk. I won't even go into the incremental rises in health care due to people not walking anymore and getting fat and lazy driving everywhere. I've even seen, I shit you not, people drive a.) to their mailbox and back, b.) to the curb to drop off their garbage and back and c.) two houses down to visit a neighbor.
• Because it takes 5 minutes to drive to the nearest collector or arterial street, we need new fire and police precincts to provide the same level of service over a larger but less dense area. We'll fight tooth and nail though, when the town votes to create their own departments and take the responsibility from the county because of the new call volumes, we don't want those local property taxes rising.
• Ditto schools. Need more of those. If we live too far, it might just be more convenient to bus in black kids from the inner city. You do that, and I'm moving farther out and we'll build a new school! I'm not paying for it, though.
• Because of all the new developments, we need to build a new loop to the highway system. And a new radial too. But how to pay for it. We also need to pay for relocation of all the poor minorities who will now need to be moved into subsidized housing.
• Many, many more but I've grown sick of writing this already too-long post. Not like it makes a difference.

[TexasBoi]

Looks like Phoenix will outdo Houston on the number of freeway lanes.

State proposes additional 10 lanes for highway
Garin Groff, Tribune

Transportation officials are looking to nearly double the width of Interstate 10 — boosting part of the highway to a staggering 24 lanes.

The wider I-10 would begin in Tempe, where U.S. 60 dumps drivers from the East Valley onto the interstate toward Phoenix. The extra lanes would continue to east Phoenix and could one day extend as far as Interstate 17.

The freeway’s size would be unlike anything in Arizona and would take time to get used to, transportation planners said. Even local officials struggled to grasp the freeway’s size when they first saw a diagram showing all the lanes.

“I’m thinking: 24 lanes, that’s not too bad — 12 on each side,” Tempe Vice Mayor Hut Hutson said. “All of a sudden it dawned on me — 12 on a side! I couldn’t believe it.”

The new design essentially adds another freeway on the outside of the existing highway. A barrier would separate the inner freeway from a new parallel road.

Other major metro areas have similar configurations, but the length of this segment could become the longest freeway section of this width, said Eric Anderson, the transportation planner for the Maricopa Association of Governments.

“No doubt it will be one of the widest freeways in the country,” Anderson said. “And maybe the widest.”

The first segment of the 24-lane freeway would run from U.S. 60 to about 40th Street, cost about $550 million and take three years to build. The association has the funds to start construction in 2011 or 2012. The work would include a new, more efficient interchange with state Route 143.

Planners are looking to widen I-10 from I-17 to the Loop 202 Santan Freeway, which could raise the project’s price to $1.3 billion. Officials don’t yet have the money for that much expansion, but Anderson said it’s being studied to prepare for traffic demands decades from now.

The widening that is funded would dramatically improve the freeway, easing one of the Valley’s most congested areas, Anderson said.

The wider I-10 would include a second HOV lane to run along the five or six lanes in place on most of I-10.

Other new lanes would be part of the parallel road, called a collector-distributor road. A concrete barrier would separate the outside road because freeways become bogged down once they get wider than about six lanes per direction, Anderson said.

Weaving is the major problem as drivers cross multiple lanes to reach an exit. The barrier between the two roads would only open up every several miles, which cuts weaving and makes the freeway more efficient than if it had the same number of lanes without a barrier, Anderson said.

Arizona Department of Transportation would likely expand the freeway to 24 lanes all at one time, Anderson said. Parts of the freeway in Tempe have 12 lanes, though at least one segment has 14 near the U.S. 60 interchange.

The Tempe segment of I-10 is a priority because of congestion and the amount of urban growth south and east of the interchange with U.S. 60. Also, traffic at the Broadway curve is projected to reach 450,000 vehicles a day in 20 years. That’s up from 294,000 a day now, a virtual tie with Arizona’s busiest freeway. The top spot is I-10 at state Route 51, where 303,000 vehicles pass a day.

Initial studies show it will take $200 million to $300 million to buy land for the wider freeway and relocate numerous businesses. It doesn’t appear the wider freeway would disturb cemeteries at the Broadway curve in Tempe or substantially carve into the buttes there, Tempe officials said.

Tempe is eager to see some of those lanes. But not all of them.

The city was supposed to get extra lanes on U.S. 60 and I-10 heading toward Phoenix starting this year, Tempe Mayor Hugh Hallman said. That was part of a deal Tempe struck with the ADOT seven years ago, when ADOT was widening U.S. 60, the mayor said.

ADOT wanted to widen U.S. 60 further, but Tempe objected because there wasn’t enough money to add lanes to I-10 at the same time. Without more lanes on I-10, the city argued, a bottleneck would just turn U.S. 60 into a parking lot during the morning rush hour.

But the original widening plan for I-10 was delayed as ADOT got requests from other communities to make the freeway even wider, Hallman said, breaking a deal to make I-10 a priority around U.S. 60.

“That promise has never been kept,” Hallman said.

ADOT has let too many other communities request improvements to I-10 and expanded the project to a nearly impossible scope, Hallman said. That resulted in the massive 24-lane proposal, Hallman said, instead of a more modest improvement that Tempe had expected sooner.

“Now we have a bigger parking lot, as was feared by Tempe residents, and lots of excuses.”

ADOT acknowledges the scope of the project expanded.

“When the U.S. 60 agreement was reached, it was thought the I-10 improvement study would be done or close to completion at this time and we’d be zeroing in on improvements at the U.S. 60 interchange,” ADOT spokesman Doug Nintzel said. “But the process has become much more complex.”

ADOT and MAG are looking to widen more of the freeway than originally thought and planning for needs 20 years from now, Nintzel said. Planners added a commuter rail study between Phoenix and Tucson. The route would run parallel to I-10 and could reduce the burden on the highway.

Hallman and Hutson support rail service and want to see how much it could change freeway use.

“That would relieve a lot of that traffic,” Hutson said. “I’d be interested in looking at that before I’d buy off on 24 lanes.”

[Sabretooth]

Well, you can't build your way out of congestion because it just invites more traffic. Time and time again we see this recurring theme, and time and time again we refuse to learn from our follies.

[Billpa]

Just to prove I don't have it out for Houston, I think that's a bad idea as well. Sabretooth is right on this.
Will Arizona expand to 35 lanes at some point? 40?

[Sabretooth]

Once you get past I think 7 lanes on a side you essentially lose all effectiveness for weaving. Then unless you have mostly through traffic (which is highly unlikely for a central artery designed for peak rush hours), extra lanes really don't get you much added capacity. Think of it as diminishing returns.

Instead of building one super-wide, you'd actually be doing yourself better by just building a new highway somewhere else. You'd probably save enough on rights-of-way alone, if you can believe that.