India's Space Sector updates II

[Illusionist]

anyone knows how many cryogenic engines we have left? i think russia gave us 4 of them and we used most of the engines.
what is the status on our indigenous engine?

[think-tank]

Originally Posted by Illusionist

anyone knows how many cryogenic engines we have left? i think russia gave us 4 of them and we used most of the engines.
what is the status on our indigenous engine?

Isro is building CE 20 for GSLV III Medium lift vehicle. All major tests have been completed.

[mihir1310]

GSLV is using cryogenic engines. We have a launch scheduled in the coming months, you can find it mentioned on the previous page. So far our indigenous cryogenic engines haven't succeeded, so this launch will be a test of that, fingers crossed !!!!!!!!!

[dayalbaba]

ISRO will test with GSLV without a cyro stage.

[think-tank]

Cryo stage for GSLV 3 is planned for Mid 2012 and April 2013.

From the annual report

[MeMumbaikar]

I need some technical help


Comparing the rocket Ariane 5 (EU) to GLSV III


(a) So India needs to probably get to GLSV IV to match Ariane 5? in terms of lifting capacity?

(b) Payload to LEO? Whats that

(c) Payload to GTO? Whats that.

(d) Whats the central aim of GLSV III? Extra lifting capacity in LEO or extra in GTO?

[think-tank]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

I need some technical help


Comparing the rocket Ariane 5 (EU) to GLSV III


(a) So India needs to probably get to GLSV IV to match Ariane 5? in terms of lifting capacity?

(b) Payload to LEO? Whats that

(c) Payload to GTO? Whats that.

(d) Whats the central aim of GLSV III? Extra lifting capacity in LEO or extra in GTO?

What ISRO currently focused on is reducing the cost and getting maximum output. They don't have reason to match Ariane 5. GSLV is a medium lift vehicle that is able to carry mid to heavy payloads at a lower cost, this can attract more customers. Liquid propulsion is very expensive, NASA can blow billons on a single mission and achieve very little results but Isro doesn't have that luxury. They always focus on reducing the cost, PSLV is probably the cheapest and best engineered launch vehicle ever built by man. It focuses on reducing the mission cost by using multi-stage rockets with solid propellant (which is cheap). It's nothing do with whether Isro has the technology or not, it's about cost effectiveness.

[MeMumbaikar]

I see

Did not think of it from the cost POV. Thankyou for the response.

Another question I had is, from a commercial POV if GSLV III is operational fully. Does that mean ISRO can offer a lot of services offered by Ariane 5 at a much cheaper rate?

Who are the potential customers who ISRO is trying to get on board? I read its specifically for the INSAT-4 series satellites of India which till now had been launched by Ariane 5.

One final question.

I notice that Insat-4 series offers Ku band frequencies which are needed for satellite broadcasting as well as C band ones. Isnt the launch of Ku bands not good for India considering we have lots of rains for months on end which affects the Ku and C bands?



So what i can take from your answers thinktank is that India needs to GLSV III in order to launch the INSAT-4 series of heavy satellites (currently launch by Ariance 5) which are needed by mostly satellite and ditigal television broadcasting in the microwave spectrum.

In the future they will make the GLSV III cheaper than Ariane 5 so that other countries (who are they?) can use the GLSV as a cheap and affordable means.

[think-tank]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

I see

Did not think of it from the cost POV. Thankyou for the response.

Another question I had is, from a commercial POV if GSLV III is operational fully. does that mean ISRO can offer a lot of services offered by Ariane 5 at a much cheaper rate?

One final question.

I notice that Insat-4 series offers Ku band frequencies which are needed for satellite broadcasting as well as C band ones. Isnt the launch of Ku bands not good for India considering we have lots of rains for months on end which affects the Ku and C bands?



So what i can take from your answers thinktank is that India needs to GLSV III in order to launch the INSAT-4 series of heavy satellites (currently launch by Ariance 5) which are needed by mostly satellite and ditigal television broadcasting in the microwave spectrum.

In the future they will make the GLSV III cheaper than Ariane 5 so that other countries (who are they?) can use the GLSV as a cheap and affordable means.

Exactly, the edge Isro has is the cost. Other space agencies won't be able to maintain our level of cost cutting because European and American scientists are pretty expensive to handle. The average mission cost for PSLV is $16 million. Let's look at the fuel cost. If the vehicle uses Liquid Propulsion the cost will be about (average)

Liquid hydrogen: about $9/kg
Liquid Oxygen: $4/kg

Excluding the cost of the rocket.
--------

btw, Ku band weather problem can be sorted out using ground filters.

---------
Specs: Ariane 5, Delta IV and GSLV

[MeMumbaikar]

thankyou for the info think tank

i guess i understand ISRO better now, its not about technology it is about cost.

[Gudavalli]

Green signal from ISRO for Railway's internet in train proposal

NEW DELHI: Surfing the Internet in trains without using data card seems to be a distinct possibility now as the Railways have got the much-awaited clearance from space agency ISRO for using the satellite for the purpose.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has given the clearance for using the frequency from KU band for using the satellite for Internet, said a senior Railway Ministry official, adding it will be for the first time that Internet will be operational in moving trains through satellite.

Though Railways had proposed two years back to provide Internet in trains, the project could not take off due to the absence of ISRO clearance.

"ISRO's clearance for using frequency from satellite for Internet is mandatory. Now that we have got the clearance, work on the project will commence soon," said the official.

As per the proposal, three rakes of Howrah Rajdhani will be uplinked with satellite for facilitating Internet in coaches on a pilot basis.

Since it is a pilot project the Internet service will not be charged from the passengers, said the official.

Railways have sanctioned Rs 6.30 crore for providing Internet facility in Howrah Rajdhani. The work will be executed by a Mumbai-based company.

Now custom-made antenna will be installed on the locomotives of the train and coaches will be linked through Wi-Fi connectivity, he said.

According to the procedure to be followed, passenger will get a password in his mobile phone after dialling a number given by the TTE. The passenger can make the Internet operational with the use of the password.

If the pilot project becomes successful then other trains will also be linked with satellite for Internet purpose.

[kalkibhagwan]

^ I wonder how railways will be able to afford all this, wasn't the price hike stopped by hitler didi ?? or is this Another grand plan of making the railways banckrupt

[Gudavalli]

Indian space agency foresees GSLV test flights within year

India has scheduled up to four space launches in the next year, including two crucial tests of the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle, a medium-class rocket envisioned as the cornerstone of Indian ambitions for fully independent access to space.

The chairman of India's space agency, K. Radhakrishnan, announced the preliminary rocket manifest last week following the successful launch of a Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle with a radar surveillance satellite.

The PSLV has achieved a success record of greater than 90 percent in 21 launches, but India's larger rocket - the GSLV - has been grounded since 2010 following a string of failures.

The Indian Space Research Organization has declared four failures in the GSLV's seven launches.

Two more PSLV flights are on India's launch schedule in 2012. Astrium's commercial Spot 6 imaging satellite will launch in August, and the SARAL altimetry mission developed by France and India will launch in October to measure global sea surface height.

Another PSLV will deploy the first dedicated Indian navigation satellite in orbit in early 2013.

But ISRO's focus is also on perfecting larger launchers.

Radhakrishnan said the next GSLV mission could launch this fall with an Indian-built cryogenic third stage, which ISRO developed to replace a Russian hydrogen-fueled engine used on GSLV Mk.1 model, the rocket's early variant.

International missile and defense technology agreements stipulated Russia could only provide readymade third stages for the GSLV, forcing India to start an in-house program to design and build its own upper stage.


Artist's concept of the GSLV Mk.3 launch vehicle. Credit: ISRO

The Indian upper stage failed during its first test flight in April 2010, and another GSLV launch with a Russian third stage disintegrated in a fireball less than a minute after liftoff in December 2010.

After further testing and modifications to the upper stage engine's fuel turbopump, India is almost ready to launch another GSLV with the Indian-built upper stage, a configuration known as GSLV Mk.2, according to Radhakrishnan.

"The much-awaited GSLV with an indigenous cryogenic stage is getting ready," Radhakrishnan said. "I'm happy to announce that we have done a series of ground tests, which have gone well. Some more tests have to be done before we commit the cryogenic stage for the GSLV flight. We expect this to happen by September or October 2012."

Radhakrishnan said the new GSLV upper stage will undergo vacuum and endurance testing for up to 1,000 seconds later this year. During flight, the upper stage engine fires for about six minutes, according to ISRO.

Indian officials have selected the GSAT 14 communications satellite as the passenger for the GSLV Mk.2 test flight. The 4,453-pound spacecraft carries operational C-band and Ku-band channels, along with an experimental Ka-band payload.

Radhakrishnan said ISRO will launch GSLV at least twice before placing India's second robotic lunar mission - Chandrayaan 2 - on the launcher for a flight to the moon in 2014.

A test flight of India's third-generation GSLV, called the GSLV Mk.3, has been set for early 2013, Radhakrishnan said.

"GSLV Mk.3 has crossed several major milestones," Radhakrishnan said. "The lower stages have been qualified, and we will be undertaking an experimental flight of GSLV Mk.3 in a year from Sriharikota essentially to understand the behavior of the vehicle in the atmospheric stage of flight."

Propelled by two solid rocket boosters and a liquid-fueled two-engine core stage, the suborbital test flight will lift off from the Satish Dhawan Space Center on India's east coast.

Each booster will generate 1.1 million pounds of thrust, making it the third most powerful solid rocket motor in the world after the boosters used on the space shuttle and Ariane 5 launcher.

The S200 strap-on boosters and L110 liquid-fueled core will accelerate the GSLV Mk.3 several thousand miles from the Sriharikota launch pad.

The GSLV Mk.3 is designed to launch communications satellites weighing more than four metric tons - about 8,800 pounds - once it begins orbital flights in 2014. The launcher will be able to deliver more than 10 metric tons - 22,000 pounds - into low Earth orbit.

Orbital flights of GSLV Mk.3, which require a 25-ton cryogenic upper stage, likely will not begin until 2014.

[Gudavalli]

Proposal for satellite-based Internet on trains gets ISRO nod

An initial proposal by the Railways to facilitate satellite-based Internet on trains, sans data cards has now met with approval from the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO). The proposal, which has been awaiting an ISRO-approval since two years now, will see Internet surfing in trains, minus data cards a reality, soon. The Railways have achieved a major breakthrough in this respect, since it will be the very first time that an operational train will be equipped with satellite-based Internet. The Railways now have the approval to use the frequency from KU band for using the satellite for Internet. And, the first one to boast of this facility, albeit on a pilot basis first, will be three rakes of the Howrah Rajdhani, for which the Railways have sanctioned Rs.6.30 crores, and the project will begin soon helmed by a Mumbai-based company.

The Railways plan to begin with their pilot project first, and depending on its success they will link more trains with satellite-based Internet facilities, and considering that it will be a pilot project, users will not be charged for their Internet usage. The procedure that the passengers will need to follow to avail the Internet services is that they will first receive a password on their mobile phone, after they dial the number provided to them by the TTE. It is this password that the passengers will have to use to access the Internet. Elaborating further on their big plans with the new service, an official was quoted as saying, “ISRO's clearance for using frequency from satellite for internet is mandatory. Now that we have got the clearance, work on the project will commence soon. Now custom-made antenna will be installed on the locomotives of the train and coaches will be linked through Wi-Fi connectivity.”

Satellite-based Internet services on operational trains is surely a biggie achieved by the Railways. Considering the number of people who use the services regularly, and who are also well-connected through the Internet; one can only hope that the facility is readily lapped up by the end-user.

[Gudavalli]

GSLV launch with Indian cryogenic engine planned, says ISRO chief

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is confident of using an indigenous cryogenic engine to propel its Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicles (GSLV) by September-October this year, ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrishnan said on Thursday.

Addressing journalists after the successful PSLV-C19 mission to launch the indigenously built Radar Imaging Satellite, RISAT-1, in orbit, Dr. Radhakrishnan said the ISRO now had an understanding of why the test in 2010 with the GSLV cryogenic engine resulted in failure and it was working towards addressing the problems.

As part of this, the GSLV will undergo an endurance test of 1,000 seconds and a vacuum test at a special facility at the Liquid Propellant System Centre at Mahendragiri in Tamil Nadu.

“We are planning a GSLV launch with Indian cryogenic engine during September-October 2012,” Dr. Radhakrishnan said.

However, India's second moon mission Chandrayaan-2, slated for 2014, would have to wait until the ISRO carried out GSLV flights successfully, the ISRO chief said.

“We plan to fly two GSLV rockets at an interval of six months and the third will be for the Chandrayaan-2 mission.”

First unmanned mission

India's first unmanned moon mission, Chandrayaan-1, was launched in 2008 and the second has been planned with Russian collaboration. While India would make the orbiter and the rover, Russia would contribute the lander.

On the status of the GSLV Mark-III, the upgraded variant of the GSLV, Dr. Radhakrishnan said as the rocket would have a high power cryogenic engine, the engine's various subsystems had to be rigorously tested, and this could take a couple of years.

He said an experimental flight of the GSLV Mark-III without the cryogenic engine is planned during 2012-13 to test the rocket's other parameters.

Surveillance purposes

To a question, Dr. Radhakrishnan said the RISAT-1 could not be classed as a “spy satellite” as it was positioned in the C-band (5.35 GHz) unlike the RISAT-2, whose main sensor was an X-band synthetic aperture radar from Israel Aerospace Industries designed to monitor India's borders and anti-infiltration and anti-terrorist operations.

The RISAT-2, launched by India in 2009, was later acquired by Israel for $110 million largely for surveillance purposes.

‘Test and validation'

The GSAT-10 communication satellite proposed to be launched by the Ariane-5ECA carrier rocket from the Guiana Space Centre in French Guiana is ready with the “test and validation over and a possible launch slot in July,” Dr. Radhakrishnan said. The GSAT-10 is expected to meet the growing need for Ku and C-band transponders.

[MeMumbaikar]

nice plan from ISRO. Fingers crossed for all of them.

[kalkibhagwan]

As far as I know, there are two separate launches planned for GSLV III in the next 6 months, one will be without cryogenic engine, and the other one will be with it..

[hobbes100]

Originally Posted by MeMumbaikar

I need some technical help


Comparing the rocket Ariane 5 (EU) to GLSV III


(a) So India needs to probably get to GLSV IV to match Ariane 5? in terms of lifting capacity?

(b) Payload to LEO? Whats that

(c) Payload to GTO? Whats that.

(d) Whats the central aim of GLSV III? Extra lifting capacity in LEO or extra in GTO?

a) Yeah, it would take GSLV IV to match Ariane 5 capacity. But by the time we get there, Ariane's capacity would be even higher.

b) Low Earth Orbit: Typically the kind of orbit remote sensing satellites go to - it's at a lower height and satellites in such orbits go around the earth multiple times in 24 hrs. PSLV typically takes satellites to LEO. Payload to LEO is how much weight a launcher get get to LEO.

c) Geostationary Transfer Orbit: Geostationary satellites (like INSAT) that go around the earth in 24 hrs, and hence always stay "fixed" above certain geography - they go to GTO. GSLV/Ariane typically take satellites to this orbit.

Payload to GTO for a launcher would always be much smaller than payload to LEO, since it takes a lot more fuel/power to get to GTO.

d) GSLV III would have extra lifting capacity for both for LEO and GTO. However, it will primarily used for GTO. PSLV can manage LEO quite well.

What ISRO currently focused on is reducing the cost and getting maximum output. They don't have reason to match Ariane 5.

It's true that ISRO's goal is reduce cost. However, I don't think there is no reason to match Ariane 5. The reason for bigger and bigger launchers is that the satellites have been getting heavier. If you notice, although our lift capacity has grown significantly over the years (from SLV to GSLV), our satellite weight has always outpaced that growth. That's why we have usually relied on Ariane to take our most advanced communication satellites - they are too heavy for PSLV or current version of GSLV.

Top of the line communication satellites these days weigh over 5000 kg. Even medium lift GSLV Mk III would not have sufficient capacity to carry some of the heavier satellites. We'll have to inevitably go to GSLV IV. Specially if India is serious about manned space flight, higher lift capacity is a must.

This is not to say that there's not a robust market for services of launchers like PSLV or current version of GSLV (once it becomes reliable), but continuous improvement in lift capacity would be required, while keeping an eye on costs.

[hobbes100]

Originally Posted by think-tank

What ISRO currently focused on is reducing the cost and getting maximum output. They don't have reason to match Ariane 5. GSLV is a medium lift vehicle that is able to carry mid to heavy payloads at a lower cost, this can attract more customers. Liquid propulsion is very expensive, NASA can blow billons on a single mission and achieve very little results but Isro doesn't have that luxury. They always focus on reducing the cost, PSLV is probably the cheapest and best engineered launch vehicle ever built by man. It focuses on reducing the mission cost by using multi-stage rockets with solid propellant (which is cheap). It's nothing do with whether Isro has the technology or not, it's about cost effectiveness.

Liquid propulsion might be expensive, but there's no way around using liquid propulsion in any serious rocket (both PSLV and GSLV use a combination solid and liquid stages). Solid propulsion is good for booster phase, or initial stages of a rocket - it is good at providing higher thrust for short amount of time. It is also good for use in missiles, since it can be stored for a long time, and can be ready for launch at a short notice.

But liquid propulsion is a must for longer burns to take payloads to longer distances. Liquid propulsion:
1) Provides more control in guiding the rocket
2) Is much more efficient from a thrust to weight ratio point of view

Cost of propellant (even the more expensive liquid ones) is small compared to the total cost of the rocket/launch. What is more expensive is the R&D required to perfect the liquid propulsion technology, and manufacturing of engines and storage mechanism for fuel (specially for cryogenic fuel), as it is much more complex than solid.

I'm sure ISRO would love to perfect the cryogenic engine technology. It's not by choice that they have not been successful so far. Once they are successful (which I'm sure they will be, soon), you'll see them using it a lot more. Even futurist vision of cheap space travel relies on airbreathing ramjet engines (the kind Kalam talked about a lot) that use liquid fuel.

[think-tank]

Originally Posted by hobbes100

I'm sure ISRO would love to perfect the cryogenic engine technology. It's not by choice that they have not been successful so far. Once they are successful (which I'm sure they will be, soon), you'll see them using it a lot more. Even futurist vision of cheap space travel relies on airbreathing ramjet engines (the kind Kalam talked about a lot) that use liquid fuel.

What I've noticed is that rockets that carry very heavy payloads such as space shuttles have like one or two stages, these are mainly based on cryogenics and are very expensive, ISRO's cost cutting involves implementing multi stage rockets with different fuel combinations. Ramjets don't work because there is no oxygen to burn after the rocket reaches second stage.