Atlantic Union

[Reddog794]

I've read about a Maritime Union, that was discussed about before confederation, and then later on afterwards, but all that came out of it was the conglomeration of certain boards, and commitees. Later on Newfoundland was included in alot of those, hence us now having the Council of Atlantic Premiers.

What I'm throwing on to here is what about a Unified Atlantic Province? I've been thinking alot about this, esspecially now living in New Brunswick. The world is shrinking, and in a country as big as ours, it kind of makes sense to consolidate our resources to make us more competetive.

The first problem that came to mind would be the capital. Most (or just NS) would say Halifax, others (or just NB) would say Moncton. As well any capital on the mainland would alientate both PEI and Nfld. What about a rotating Capital? It would change every leap year, in sync with the elections.


It's a possible idea, but is it plausable? It could mean big things for everybody on Canada's forgotten coast.

[Wishblade]

Unified Atlantic Province, I think I would support that, but rotating capital? that just sounds kind of silly to me, no offense. I just cant see that working. You'd have to have the government offices set up in each of the rotating cities.

[skyscraper_1]

A Maritime Union would be far more likely then an Atlantic Union IMO. Newfoundland is too different both culturally and historically. Even the maritime provinces are really quite different.

But lets assume we could create a united maritime province: The advantages.

The overall cost per capita would be(or should be) cheaper because there is not a replication of tasks in each former province. There would also be standardised regulations in business, healthcare and education.

There would be a large psychological benefit for the residence of the new province. Instead of 'New Brunswick - population - 780,000', it would be 'Atlantica - population 1,850,000! Our region currently seems unpopulated, but it is rare to find such a relitively large population in a small geographical area in Canada atleast. It would also be an advantage to attracting investors. Come to the East Coast! Do business in Atlantica!

To help break down old provincal loyalties we could promote a more regional approach. Like the Gulf region, Atlantic Coastal Region, Fundy region, Northern Region, Southwestern region Cape Breton region?

Capital: The best choice would be a city central to all three "old provinces" so perhaps Moncton or Charlottetown.

Name: Atlantica has a cutting edge ring too it, Acadia has a more historic resonance...or something completely off the wall like... Nova Prince Brunsedwardscotia?

[Penhorn]

"Atlantica" has always sounded kind of silly to me...it's sort of in the same vein as "Futurama" .

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by Penhorn

"Atlantica" has always sounded kind of silly to me...it's sort of in the same vein as "Futurama" .

It may be an unrealistic sounding idea, but to be honest I really believe it would greatly benefit our region as a whole.

[Reddog794]

Charlottetown would be the most neutral choice, do to the fact that people in NS wouldn't complain, and people in NB wouldn't complain.

The idea I had behind the rotating capital is, it would be selected the term before, so they have 4 years to set up a building that was already there, or build a new one, and once the city was done being the capital, they could convert the building back to what it was, or have a new convention space. You could even have the city be capital for 2 terms so the capital building would get 8 years of service, and the next city would get 8 years to set up. Make a big festival over it, so the opening of the legislature, or provincial parlement would be a big thing each term. Get the some interest back into the politics. Plus it would allow certain cities like Saint John, Sydney, Moncton, Truro, Summerside a chance to get in on it.

The more I thought about what you said skyscraper, the more I doubt Nfld would be in on it. Esspecially with Hibernia kicking in, and they are kind of a different kettle of fish. The biggest fear you would get is the dilluting of the rural influence in the new government, but the idea of districts... makes sense.

It would also give the east a bigger voting bloc in Ottawa.

Atlantica... I don't know, Acadia was what I had in mind... what about the "Maritime Province", or the United Maritime Province.

I don't think Penhorn was bashing the idea, just poking the name. Any suggestions Penhorn? You've put some good posts up in the past, what are your thoughts?

[crossroad]

What's the benefit of such a union anyway?? Just to hang out with smaller/weaker (no offense to them) provinces to get a sense of pride?? What a waste! If there is a union, NS should be partner with Ontario or Michigan or New York. Only by working with bigger and stronger guys, like in sports, can you improve.

[Reddog794]

the problem(s) with that is:
a) we have nothing in common with any of those province/states.
b) Two of them are in a different country.
c) Quebec and New Brunswick are kind of seperating NS from Ontario.
d) We did join Ontario in the begining along with NB and Que, to create Canada, and all we got was a bankrupt economy, to pay for a rail road that didn't really benifit us all that much.
e) NS, NB, PEI were all one province at one time.
f) Just out of curiousity crossroad, but where are you from? I'm not attacking you, I'd just like to have an idea so I can properly approach the subject you brought up. If you are from, and grew up in the Dallas Ft. Worth area, I recommend checking out a map of the Maritime provinces, so you can begin to grasp what it is we're talking about. Once you've done that, then come back and we can properly go into it. Thanks for the interest, it's cool that people from outside the region are curious.

[skyscraper_1]

Originally Posted by crossroad

What's the benefit of such a union anyway?? Just to hang out with smaller/weaker (no offense to them) provinces to get a sense of pride?? What a waste! If there is a union, NS should be partner with Ontario or Michigan or New York. Only by working with bigger and stronger guys, like in sports, can you improve.

Remember, we are talking about a POLITICAL union here. Would it make sense for say...Rhode Island to politically merge with Texas or California?

[skyscraper_1]

double post.

[skyscraper_1]

Here are the three provinces we are talking about.



The union would create a compact province of about 1.8 million, comparable too Manitobia and Saskatchawan combined. The green area would be the new province.

[Reddog794]

That's pretty dope, I was just trying to find a set of maps to do exactly that. Thanks.

[Smevo]

I was against this idea at first, but the more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of it. Rotating capitals I'm not so sure about though. It sounds like a good idea to keep everyone from complaining, it just doesn't seem very feasible. Even if you had regional offices take over the new building(s) after they served the purpose of housing the government offices, that would still inevitably leave a large chunk of space that would have to be occupied in each city. If the space could be leased successfully, it would obviously be beneficial, but if not, the vacant space would be a sore-spot for soapboxers to harp on until the next time the city was the capital (11 cities in "Acadia"-I prefer that name or a whole new name-that would be 40 years of lag time on a 4 year rotation, or 80 years on a 8 year rotation). The upkeep alone for the buildings, if left unleased, would cause significant problems, and by the time the city was the capital again, they'd probably need to build new buildings again whether the space was leased or not. That's a major expenditure for the provincial budget every 4 or 8 years.

I do like the idea of promoting regional loyalties within the new province rather than loyalties to the old provinces. As it is, the Cape Breton separation movement from Nova Scotia to form its own province is gaining strength again though it's still very much a fringe movement (the CBLP if anyone's familiar with it), so if this new province was formed and regional loyalties were promoted, it may be enough to satisfy those in the CBLP if it was true and they were convinced that the union would help Cape Breton. After all, it would be a union that was entered into willingly, which would destroy one of the CBLP's main arguments for separation.

Anyway, if it was just one capital, although Charlottetown is a neutral city, PEI would run into major problems if the new centralization of offices for 1.8 million people caused a corresponding population increase in the new capital through job relocation. It is, afterall, a very small island. Though it would really grind the gears of Haligonians, my vote would be for either Moncton as an emerging major player in the region, or Saint John (which was once the capital of New Brunswick though it goes against the central location argument), most likely Moncton though. The problem with leaving it in Halifax would be the likelyhood that Northern New Brunswick (Northern Region?) would feel even more alienated and would likely start a movement to join Quebec, and the CBLP would be strengthened since they could argue that it was the same government structure and Sydney and the rest of the island would be fighting not only with Halifax over new opportunity, but also now Moncton, Saint John, Fredericton, and Charlottetown (as the major players).

Ok, 5AM brainstorm here so let me explain this before you all roll around laughing, but what about moving the capital to Truro? It's a relatively central location geographically, almost exaclty in the middle of Halifax and Moncton (the two major centres of the region), has a surrounding area of around 40,000 people and plenty of room for growth, and is the connecting point between the TCH and the southern half of Nova Scotia via HWY102. It's also in a location to take advantage of both Halifax and Moncton International airports as well as the CN and VIA rail services. It would also avoid people complaining about "all the opportunity going to one of the major cities just because it was the capital", which is heard a lot in Nova Scotia as it is.

FYI- when I stated "11 cities" above, I combined some so here's the list I was going by: Sydney, Halifax+Dartmouth (I list them as this because hopefully the amalgamations would be reversed by the "Acadian" provincial government), Charlottetown, Summerside, Moncton+Dieppe, Saint John, Fredericton, Miramichi, Bathurst, Campbellton, Edmundston. Because of geographic location, the combined cities would act as one capital if the rotating capitals did happen. If the amalgamations were reversed and Glace Bay incorporated as a city, it would be Sydney+Glace Bay capital. Most likely the legislature would be in the larger with the government offices themselved being shared between the two cities anytime two cities would act jointly as capital.

PS- Sorry for the length of the post.

[Reddog794]

Smevo, I appreciate the input. The fact that you had alot to say is fantastic, because it means you thought.

Truro seriously crossed my mind, because it's the Hub, just as much as Moncton. I have a feeling the rotating capital (RC) idea would probably go on for about 20 years or so, until they (the people/government) finally came to a decision of having a permanent one. The idea of a RC would be to almost shake the regional divisions a bit more. So that if/when they decided to go with a permanent capital it wouldn't be as much a NB vs NS vs PEI vs CB vs NNB senario.

Truro is idealy located because you can get there via a ferry from SJ (you'd have to change the digby/SJ so it ran Truro/SJ), trains from ANYWHERES on the main land and CB, and it is not far from the bridge (relatively) to PEI. I don't think Hali would mind, it's only an hour and a bit drive, not unlike most drives into TO in the morning, plus there is a rail link from both Dartmouth and Hali (both DT lines)

I'm not sure about the reversing of amalgamations, it would cost to much to reverse, when it happened, it was, (and still is somewhat) a sink hole for cash, but that's because it took so long. Halifax/Dartmouth logistically should have amalgamated in the 70's like Freddy, and SJ did.

If it was in Charelottown, you don't have to have all the offices in one spot, mind you it helps to have things centralized, that's kind of the idea behind uniting the proinces.

[skyscraper_1]

. Rotating capitals I'm not so sure about though. It sounds like a good idea to keep everyone from complaining, it just doesn't seem very feasible. Even if you had regional offices take over the new building(s) after they served the purpose of housing the government offices, that would still inevitably leave a large chunk of space that would have to be occupied in each city. If the space could be leased successfully, it would obviously be beneficial, but if not, the vacant space would be a sore-spot for soapboxers to harp on until the next time the city was the capital

The rotating capital idea would require government bueracrats and their families to be uprooted ever x years. Which would be extremely disruptive(buying a new house, finding new friends, etc everytime the capital changes)

[Yank in exile]

Anything that would pep up Charlottetown sounds good to me!

Truro seems a good place geographically (quick hop from the PEI ferry landing in Pictou would make it easy for PEI).

In both cases, the region needs to address whether there is sufficient physical infrastructure for such an expansion.

The rotating capitols idea sounds like a huge bureaucratic boondoggle. What, are you talking four sets of office buildings that will only be occupied 25% of the time? The same to be said for the extra housing stock in the area? Not to mention the extra businesses and jobs that will "migrate" with the capitol, creating a constant "boom and bust" for each town (messing up housing prices and economic health for the "locals") or an entire class of "semi-permanent" workers who will follow the "boom" but never put down roots, partly thanks to being fleeced by high rents wherever they go.

[Reddog794]

True. The 'ripple effect' as my philosophy prof would say. The only I have to say is people from PEI like their Island as it is. The question of "Who are you coming in here and messing up our piece of paradise?" would be loud and clear in alot of circles. Mind you, I'm only speaking for those that I've met. Is there anybody in here from PEI? The idea of a union here in NB is surprisingly flexable. The instant "rub against the grain" is the idea of Halifax being the capital. (is it with an 'o' or and 'a'? is there a difference? the 'a' for financial, and 'o' for gov?) I thought about this in Poli Sci today, what about Amherst? Just a thought.

[Smevo]

Amherst...interesting idea. The location is good, the main problem I could see occurring though is the boom caused by the influx of government jobs and the lack of existing infrastructure and ability to handle the boom in an area of only 10,000 people. However, I would love to get that city planning contract. Just hold off a year and a half until I graduate.

[Yank in exile]

Originally Posted by Reddog794

is it with an 'o' or and 'a'? is there a difference? the 'a' for financial, and 'o' for gov?

I take a lot of heat for being the spelling and grammar cop around here, so I hope you won't mind if I confirm your suspicion. It's nice to know that you actually care whether you're spelling it properly or not.

You left out my favourite use for the word capital with an "a"—in the architectural sense!

Especially when applied to a building housing the seat of government, you can have the capital of the capitol (oy—I seriously need to get out more).

[Reddog794]

What else are the problems the would arise from trying to get this United Maritime Province? Solutions?