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Old October 13th, 2009, 08:21 AM   #9061
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Frank Lloyd Wright could have risen from the grave and designed this, but at the end of the day, if the numbers don't work, it won't be built. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it happen, but I'm a realist.
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Old October 13th, 2009, 08:28 AM   #9062
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The Trump Tower was designed by the great Adrian Smith (the man behind the Burj Dubai). That one is a total flop. Americans have been lead to believe any home they buy will be guaranteed to go up in value. That's no longer true.

I'm pretty confident that if the Spire opened in a few years, and someone bought a home there, in 20-30 years it would be worth more. But banks are skittish about projects like these. The Empire State Building was about 25% occupied for much of the 1930s and 40s. Sears had huge problems filling up its 1,451 ft, 3.8 million sq ft tower with occupants and had to abandon it for the cheaper suburbs. The Twin Towers in NY had to be subsidized by the city for decades to land tenants and actually drove down commercial rents for all building owners in lower manhattan.

If 1,000-2,000 ft buildings were such money makers every city in America (and the rest of the world for that matter) would have them. Their are lots of successful tall buildings, but it's very tough. Remember, their are less than fifty 1,000 foot tall buildings in the entire world right now.
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Old October 13th, 2009, 03:26 PM   #9063
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I get really tired of hearing people say "the days of blah blah are over for America". It is a recession. A bad one, but we will pull through it and come out stronger. Over? Think about the situation in 1977. Interest rates were at 20+%, The OPEC idiots were playing games, the Soviets were building nukes, chemical, biological etc to counter the US doing the same. Every time period has it's highs and lows. I like to be optimistic, rather than pessimistic. Think about thirty years from now. Nuclear fusion is giving us clean, cheap energy, we are all driving (or being driven by) electric cars, robots are playing a huge role in doing the majority of work, so people can work on improving themselves and the world. Over? How about just starting!

Now think about 50 years from now, 100, 1000. Over? The question is, can we make it through the next thirty years without blowing ourselves up?

FIVE years from now we will look back and say, wow, that was a tough time but we got through it. Just like the great depression, the world wars, the 9/11 attacks. We didn't "give up" when any of those happened. Why give up on the Spire?
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Old October 13th, 2009, 05:32 PM   #9064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperfreak2 View Post
FIVE years from now we will look back and say, wow, that was a tough time but we got through it. Just like the great depression, the world wars, the 9/11 attacks. We didn't "give up" when any of those happened. Why give up on the Spire?

The only reason people would give up on it is if it made no economic sense to build it. It made sense two years ago, thus it started. Now, it does not make sense so it has lost it's funding and isn't being built.


Like someone said above, if these giant buildings made sense they would be everywhere. The truth is that they are more expensive to build, maintain and lease than smaller buildings.


Many here see these things as architectural monuments, which in many ways they are, but the bottom line is that they also have to pay for themselves!
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Old October 13th, 2009, 05:42 PM   #9065
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I'll agree with you. It may make no economic sense today. That doesn't mean the long term won't change. You also have to think that this building will become like the CN Tower in Toronto. The Burj Dubai, The Sears Tower, The Empire State Building, The Eiffel Tower, The Tokyo Sky Tree. A landmark. A building that whenever anyone says CHICAGO, that is what they think about. How often does a city define itself with a structure like this? The Sydney Opera house and bridge. Without them, I wouldn't know Sydney from Tokyo. How cost efficient is the Eiffel tower? What would Paris be without it? I don't have an answer, but I do think this: Chicago would be better with this monument, and wherever the funding has to come from, it will be worth it.

I still see NYC with the twin towers. They defined that city.
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Old October 14th, 2009, 12:43 AM   #9066
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Originally Posted by simulcra View Post
It seems like it's been way too long for it to be real.

Kelleher is sure being the optimist, and I would like to believe him, but if he *still* hasn't settled the liens against his project, then

Though the Irish goverment has guaranteed all bank loans. The IMF/World Bank calculates that this could be a horrible liability for the country (potentially 250% of Ireland's GDP could be caught up in this liability), but at least this means that whatever financing Kelleher was able to put together is still going to be ok (at the expense of the Irish taxpayer).

Well I guess I'm going out and buying some Guiness!
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Old October 14th, 2009, 03:57 PM   #9067
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http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.co...ws.pl?id=35790
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Old October 14th, 2009, 08:22 PM   #9068
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The basics, for those of you not wanting to click through and read the entire article above:

Quote:
The owner of NBC Tower has sued to evict Irish developer Garrett Kelleher’s firm from the riverfront skyscraper, where Shelbourne Development Group Inc. has a lavish sales center for the stalled Chicago Spire project.

Shelbourne, which leases the entire 18th floor in the 36-story building, hasn’t paid rent since April 1 and owes more than $316,000, according to a complaint filed in Cook County Circuit Court by a partnership that owns the building.
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Old October 14th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #9069
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You don't get the cynicism about the Spire's prospects?
I get it but I don't think it is a reflection of why the owner of that bridge is looking for buyers.
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Old October 14th, 2009, 10:23 PM   #9070
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Put a fork in it then?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 12:03 AM   #9071
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Semi Bad/Semi Good news incomming!!

Quote:
Spire developer faces eviction from sales center site

By Thomas A. Corfman, Oct. 14, 2009

(Crain’s) — The owner of NBC Tower has sued to evict Irish developer Garrett Kelleher’s firm from the riverfront skyscraper, where Shelbourne Development Group Inc. has a lavish sales center for the stalled Chicago Spire project.

Shelbourne, which leases the entire 18th floor in the 36-story building, hasn’t paid rent since April 1 and owes more than $316,000, according to a complaint filed in Cook County Circuit Court by a partnership that owns the building.

If Shelbourne is evicted, the firm could lose much of its $10-million investment in the sales center, which includes a fully built-out model, conference rooms and meeting areas.

The eviction suit is another sign of financial strain for Mr. Kelleher’s once-glittering plan to build a 2,000-foot skyscraper on a site along the north bank of the Chicago River, west of North Lake Shore Drive.

More than a year ago, the Spire’s architect, Santiago Calatrava, joined a cadre of contractors filing liens against the site for unpaid bills. Mr. Calatrava alleges he is owed $11.34 million. In August, a lender sued Shelbourne to collect $4.9 million on two unpaid loans used to pay for preliminary development expenses.

Yet earlier this month, Mr. Calatrava preached patience on the 150-story development, saying the massive project would take more time.

“My personal wish is that it is not dead,” Mr. Calatrava was quoted as saying in Tribune architecture critic Blair Kamin’s blog on ChicagoTribune.com. And a spokeswoman for Mr. Kelleher told Mr. Kamin that prospective buyers were still visiting the sales center.

Maybe not for much longer.

On Friday the building owner, a partnership controlled by the family of German billionaire Hugo Mann, is to ask a Circuit Court judge to order Shelbourne to resume paying rent until the eviction case is decided. A ruling could force the hand for Mr. Kelleher, Shelbourne’s executive chairman.

The Shelbourne spokeswoman downplays the litigation.

“The issue is a typical tenant/landlord dispute that we expect to be resolved amicably,” she says in an e-mail statement. “During our time there, we've experienced a few minor issues, and hope the management is more responsive to our concerns.”

The statement did not describe the nature of the dispute, and Shelbourne has not yet submitted an answer to the complaint, which was filed Aug. 12.

Attorney Scott Kenig, a partner in Chicago law firm Randall & Kenig LLP, which represents the partnership, declines to comment.

Shelbourne could be trying to force a rent reduction.

In mid-2007, when times were different, Shelbourne signed a lease for the space to run until Dec. 31, 2010. The firm is currently required to pay annual rent of $488,714, or $21.21 a square foot. The floor measures 23,033 square feet, according to real estate data provider CoStar Group Inc.

As part of the deal, the Mann family partnership contributed $344,495 toward construction of the sales center.

In the meantime, the landlord is drawing down on Shelbourne’s security deposit, the spokeswoman says.

“The (NBC) tower is currently not owed money,” she adds.

As security, Shelbourne posted a letter of credit in the amount of $443,000 as of Oct. 1, 2008, according to the lease.

Earlier this month, a Circuit Court judge denied Shelbourne’s request for a jury trial after the Mann partnership argued that the lease contained a waiver of the right to such a trial. Shelbourne contended that the jury trial waiver violated the Illinois Constitution and that it can seek immediate appellate review of the ruling.

The sales center is separate from Shelbourne’s Chicago offices, at 111 S. Wacker Drive. The firm also has offices in Dublin, Ireland.

“The Chicago Spire project is very much alive and yes, we are still talking to potential buyers interested in purchasing units,” Shelbourne’s spokeswoman says in the statement. “The economy has definitely slowed things down, but the project is moving forward.”
http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.co...ws.pl?id=35790

Last edited by Onn; October 15th, 2009 at 12:09 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 12:51 AM   #9072
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Wow... Sounds like irresponsible developer to me... Hope he will pay the rent that he owes to the landlord. However, I am glad to hear that project is STILL ALIVE!
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Old October 15th, 2009, 01:12 AM   #9073
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I'm guessing Shelbourne will pay up, even though the haters will probably come in any minute now to denounce even the possibility. It's likely this happened for a reason, and not because Shelbourne doesn’t have the money to pay the rent. If that was the case it would be quite silly. I just don't think that argument holds any weight. The author of the article is making the situation sound more dramatic then it really is.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 02:33 AM   #9074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onn View Post
I'm guessing Shelbourne will pay up, even though the haters will probably come in any minute now to denounce even the possibility. It's likely this happened for a reason, and not because Shelbourne doesn’t have the money to pay the rent. If that was the case it would be quite silly. I just don't think that argument holds any weight. The author of the article is making the situation sound more dramatic then it really is.
This story is actually good news for those of us who would like some resolution one way or the other. It's put up or shut up time. If Kelleher loses the sales office, I would consider that the end of the project.

I love how this pathetic spokeswoman for Shelbourne has to spin all this disastrous news over the past year. In what fantasy world is the abject failure to pay hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars for months on end to numerous parties and being subjected to close to a dozen lawsuits over said "disputes" considered "typical"?

I hope she's getting paid well. I wonder how long she would accept excuses and IOUs on payday from Kelleher before she quit?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 03:45 AM   #9075
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What's your point? If it doesn't make economic sense for now, then it won't be built for now. Otherwise who will pay for it? You? Developers will always think in a realistic way and it is not like the government has affluence to subsidize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viperfreak2 View Post
I'll agree with you. It may make no economic sense today. That doesn't mean the long term won't change. You also have to think that this building will become like the CN Tower in Toronto. The Burj Dubai, The Sears Tower, The Empire State Building, The Eiffel Tower, The Tokyo Sky Tree. A landmark. A building that whenever anyone says CHICAGO, that is what they think about. How often does a city define itself with a structure like this? The Sydney Opera house and bridge. Without them, I wouldn't know Sydney from Tokyo. How cost efficient is the Eiffel tower? What would Paris be without it? I don't have an answer, but I do think this: Chicago would be better with this monument, and wherever the funding has to come from, it will be worth it.

I still see NYC with the twin towers. They defined that city.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 07:41 PM   #9076
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Originally Posted by Onn View Post
Construction workers need work, and during the recession there is none. That's why they were going to invenst pension money in the project, it's the Spire is the only project on the board that is large enough to make a difference.
All true. But what does it have to do with the ACLU?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 07:48 PM   #9077
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All true. But what does it have to do with the ACLU?
I think I meant the construction union. AFL-CIO. Sorry.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 09:18 PM   #9078
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Old October 15th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #9079
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Originally Posted by dnobsemajdnob View Post
Can please take this down, you're confusing people! This is NOT a dead project! If it was dead they would have come out and said it by now!
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Old October 15th, 2009, 10:05 PM   #9080
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Question:

Could the concrete from the Waterview Tower carcass be pulverized and used to fill in the Spire hole? This would kill two birds with one stone. Chicago is a very practical town and this seems to be an ideal solution.
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