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Old October 31st, 2014, 04:09 PM   #10401
j-biz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
I was pointing out that, especially in America, all skyscrapers are like that. Heck, my entire country has a population density roughly equal to the Chicago metropolitan area. America doesn't need to build up. It's not running out of space. That's the main reason why it's cities are so interesting and so beautiful. They're built up because they can be, not because they need to be. This is art, and it's something too many people miss when talking about architecture.
Well, I do have a bone to pick about this point. Sure, we have many thousands of unbuilt square miles. But to continue sprawling at our current rate is completely unsustainable. Municipalities all across the US are already struggling to maintain costly, inefficient utilities systems and roadways. We just can't keep building out. I mean, half the country is already experiencing horrible water shortages that are only going to get worse. Density is a key solution to mitigate these problems. Not to mention that it's really important to move away from car-reliant city-building.

Also, if you look at the history of the city, there have been many reasons historically to build dense settlements: defense, trade, access to resources, etc. That said, are these supertall residential buildings vanity projects? I suppose in a way, but in the US nobody builds things without the expectation of profit.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 04:35 PM   #10402
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Well, you can build out, if you build smarter. New technologies will shrink the travel times to and from major cities. High speed rail, for example, would greatly expand the metro areas of a lot of areas, especially the East Coast.

The point I was trying to make, however, was that building up is necessary in some parts of the world; Hong Kong, Singapore, parts of China perhaps. And it's necessary because there either isn't the land for expansion, there are geographical restrictions (ie mountains), or simply an existing density of people in substandard housing, which would need to be modernized to expand living conditions.

Chicago has thousands of miles of nothing to expand into. Achingly flat land to boot. Have you seen Illinois? It's the kind of terrain you'd put into Sim City to make the game easier. Chicago doesn't need supertall buildings unless you factor in economic reasons. Those economic reasons - the cost of office space, the price of square footage etc - are based entirely on aspirations and human emotions. People want to work or live in prestigious areas. Businesses want to be tenants of globally important buildings. And the amenities of these areas increase its desirability, rather than its necessity.

I also think it's a particularly old-fashioned type of thinking, too. For example, Google has the money to build a supertall HQ, like Sears did in the 70s, but it doesn't. Nor does Facebook or Apple. In fact, newer companies, tech giants, almost always eschew major cities and their accompanying supertall buildings.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 04:45 PM   #10403
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Google, Facebook, and Apple didn't build super tall office buildings because they wouldn't have the floor space required for riding around the office on ten seater bikes. However, if they would have been able to have much steeper and more thrilling slides in their offices than the ones they have now.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 05:46 PM   #10404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
Chicago has thousands of miles of nothing to expand into. Achingly flat land to boot. Have you seen Illinois? It's the kind of terrain you'd put into Sim City to make the game easier.
I hope you are kidding! There is barely a square kilometre of land that is not used in some way. Or where do you think your food and oxygen comes from? What you call 'miles of nothing' is part of the ecosystem. You can't expand cities into infinity, nowadays every hectare of green space counts. The world is facing an era of dramatical overpopulation, there is a good reason to build tall and save space wherever you can!
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Old October 31st, 2014, 06:12 PM   #10405
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Originally Posted by Dubai Skyscraper View Post
I hope you are kidding! There is barely a square kilometre of land that is not used in some way. Or where do you think your food and oxygen comes from? What you call 'miles of nothing' is part of the ecosystem. You can't expand cities into infinity, nowadays every hectare of green space counts. The world is facing an era of dramatical overpopulation, there is a good reason to build tall and save space wherever you can!
My oxygen comes from Siberia and Canada, as does yours, but my food comes from large American farms, which, because of technology, are getting smaller and smaller as crop yields per sq km improve on an annual basis and diets diversify over time.

Even so, only 75% of Illinois land is actually occupied, an an even smaller percentage is actively farmed. A lot is unused pasture or land reserved for mineral prospecting. Which is to say nothing of the coal mines that harm the environment a million times more than any expansion into the prairies might accomplish.

Plus, nobody is suggesting you expand cities to infinity. Renovation of brownsites and unused plots would probably cater to all of Chicago's population demands, and if not, there's plenty of empty land in Illinois. Expansion can be natural and limited, but take advantage of the only thing America actually has in abundance; space. Unused space. Empty space. A million miles of manifest destiny.

Better to have a broader spread of urbanization than giant hive cities where everyone lives. In the future, towns and villages will be completely neutral to the environment, in harmony with the landscape and no more damaging than a forest or a river. Why not utilize space in that way, rather than build hulking great steel monstrosities because 'it's better to save space where you can'.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 07:40 PM   #10406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
My oxygen comes from Siberia and Canada, as does yours, but my food comes from large American farms, which, because of technology, are getting smaller and smaller as crop yields per sq km improve on an annual basis and diets diversify over time.

Even so, only 75% of Illinois land is actually occupied, an an even smaller percentage is actively farmed. A lot is unused pasture or land reserved for mineral prospecting. Which is to say nothing of the coal mines that harm the environment a million times more than any expansion into the prairies might accomplish.

Plus, nobody is suggesting you expand cities to infinity. Renovation of brownsites and unused plots would probably cater to all of Chicago's population demands, and if not, there's plenty of empty land in Illinois. Expansion can be natural and limited, but take advantage of the only thing America actually has in abundance; space. Unused space. Empty space. A million miles of manifest destiny.

Better to have a broader spread of urbanization than giant hive cities where everyone lives. In the future, towns and villages will be completely neutral to the environment, in harmony with the landscape and no more damaging than a forest or a river. Why not utilize space in that way, rather than build hulking great steel monstrosities because 'it's better to save space where you can'.

Towns of the future will be neutral to the environment? Sorry but I can't take this discussion serious

I'd love to argue with you but we should stop it at this point, as it's getting way off topic. Instead we should wait for actual news on the Spire.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 07:42 PM   #10407
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Please please get this built
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:29 PM   #10408
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Originally Posted by Dubai Skyscraper View Post
Towns of the future will be neutral to the environment? Sorry but I can't take this discussion serious

I'd love to argue with you but we should stop it at this point, as it's getting way off topic. Instead we should wait for actual news on the Spire.
American towns of the future.

There are already plenty of towns in Scandinavia and Europe that are already carbon neutral, energy efficient, and completely sustainable. Don't worry, America will catch up in time.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:39 PM   #10409
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The thing is dead guys tribune just reported it.http://my.chicagotribune.com/#sectio.../p2p-81837964/

Quote:
Chicago Spire developer Garrett Kelleher and his venture partner appear unlikely to make a required payment due Friday, based on an email his lawyer sent city officials Friday morning.

This would pave the way for Related Midwest to gain control of the city's most famous piece of dirt.

"Today is the deadline set by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for Garrett Kelleher and Steve Ivankovich to deposit funds to pay off creditors and bring the Chicago Spire out of bankruptcy," attorney Thomas Murphy wrote in the email, a copy of which was obtained by the Chicago Tribune. "Any bridge loan does not seem likely at this point and without an extension, equally unlikely, the property will revert to Related who bought the first mortgage from the Irish government. All creditors will be paid on an agreed schedule. As always it was great to work with you on this effort."

Murphy did not immediately respond to a request for comment. A spokeswoman for Related Midwest declined comment.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:42 PM   #10410
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...Seems like Sir RobertWalpoleLondoniumlexRobertoPucciniTheRegentTheLion(as i remember)has
pirated ThatOneGuy account because that(one)guy used to write very relevant and smart things!...
Tell me one way I am wrong.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:57 PM   #10411
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Guys, there are a million threads and other forums in which to discuss the definition of vanity projects, the nature of sprawl vs. density and the sustainability of American and Scandanavian towns, but right now mumchymunch just posted some actual ******* news pertaining to the fate of this site and this tower as reported by the Tribune so could we kindly concentrate on that?

I'll go first: since I haven't been following this project as closely as some others, could someone recap what Related's stake is in the site now that it looks like it'll revert to their control? Have they made mention of what they'd like to do with it?
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Old October 31st, 2014, 08:59 PM   #10412
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So that's that huh? What happens to this property now?
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Old October 31st, 2014, 09:05 PM   #10413
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I always wondered why great designs that aren't built in their planned location are never sold to a developer in another city/country. I've seen some great designs go to waste in my few years on this forum. Build it in China, damn it!
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Old October 31st, 2014, 09:14 PM   #10414
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I always wondered why great designs that aren't built in their planned location are never sold to a developer in another city/country. I've seen some great designs go to waste in my few years on this forum. Build it in China, damn it!
That would be awesome, however a residential megatall like the Spire would be very unusual for China. All their giant buildings are for commercial purposes
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Old October 31st, 2014, 09:25 PM   #10415
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Originally Posted by Dubai Skyscraper View Post
That would be awesome, however a residential megatall like the Spire would be very unusual for China. All their giant buildings are for commercial purposes
That was really just my way of saying "build it anywhere". China, NYC, Dubai, Oldenburg, you name it.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 09:26 PM   #10416
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Goodbye Chicago Spire and Hello Related Midwest Econo-Shitbox with "Luxury" stamped on it.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 11:34 PM   #10417
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Yep, doesn't appear there's any hope at the last second...

Spire developer poised to lose site as today's deadline looms

Quote:
Irish developer Garrett Kelleher is poised to fail today in his effort to relaunch the Spire, giving another developer the inside track to take control of the prime development site.

Chicago lawyer Thomas Murphy, who represents Mr. Kelleher, told officials in an email this morning that his client almost certainly will miss a deadline today to pay off Related Midwest LLC, his biggest creditor in a bankruptcy case related to the Spire site at 400 N. Lake Shore Drive.

Under a plan approved in Bankruptcy Court, to keep control of the property, one of Mr. Kelleher's ventures has until the end of the day today to pay Related more than $109 million. Alternatively, Mr. Kelleher's venture could extend the payment until March 31 by paying a $22 million fee and increasing Related's claim to $114 million.

But Mr. Kelleher isn't likely to secure funding to pay off Related in full or to extend the loan.

'DOES NOT SEEM LIKELY'

“Any bridge loan does not seem likely at this point and without an extension, equally unlikely, the property will revert to Related who bought the first mortgage from the Irish government,” Mr. Murphy wrote in an email to Deputy Mayor Steven Koch and Andrew Mooney, head of the Department of Planning and Development.

Mr. Murphy declined to comment. Mr. Kelleher's partner in the effort to pull the Spire site out of bankruptcy and develop the 150-story residential building there, Steven Ivankovich of Chicago-based Atlas Apartment Holdings LLC, could not be reached.

Executives with Stonebeck Capital LLC, a New York real estate lender that committed to loaning money to one of Mr. Ivankovich's ventures to pay off the Spire's creditors, did not respond to an email seeking comment.

[...]


I think Related will build something nice...but it won't be The Spire.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 11:39 PM   #10418
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and im gonna cry
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Old October 31st, 2014, 11:41 PM   #10419
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My condolences to this thread. It seemed like it would push the limits both in design and height. No telling what kind of junk will be erected in its place.
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Old October 31st, 2014, 11:42 PM   #10420
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Quote:
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Goodbye Chicago Spire and Hello Related Midwest Econo-Shitbox with "Luxury" stamped on it.
Related builds luxury towers in NY and Miami. Chicago will be no exception. The site lends itself more to condos than apartments so they may yet come up with something special here. They may even rejig the Spire plans for many more units to make the numbers work (but I doubt they could bend the cost curve enough).
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