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Old March 28th, 2009, 10:23 AM   #501
Robosteve
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Driving video: Sydney Harbour Tunnel / Eastern Distributor / Southern Cross Drive
Military Road, Neutral Bay to The Grand Parade, Brighton-Le-Sands

Length: 19.3 km / 10:00 @ 1.744x (average actual speed 66 km/h, average apparent speed 116 km/h)
Date: Sunday, 8th March 2009
Time: 14:00 (approx.)

Route:





Notes:

* - The entire video was filmed on route MR1, except for 0:00 to 0:25 which was filmed on MR10.

0:05 - This road gets extremely congested in the AM peak, since the freeway north from the CBD never got completed.

0:20 - Left to harbour crossings, right onto the Warringah Freeway northbound, or straight for local access to North Sydney and St Leonards.

0:25 - We make a left turn towards the Sydney Harbour Tunnel.

0:30 - We take the right fork; the left goes to the Harbour Bridge.

0:50 - 60 km/h speed limit through the (fully electronic) toll collection point.

1:00 - But, back up to 80 km/h through the tunnel. There's only one road tunnel in Sydney with a speed limit higher than 80 km/h.

1:30 - The Sydney Harbour Tunnel was opened in 1994. Unlike the Sydney Harbour Bridge, its function is not to carry traffic directly into the CBD, but rather to help bypass it.

2:30 - Now we are on the Cahill Expressway, Sydney's first freeway. The section we are driving on was opened in 1962. It now forms a seamless link with the Harbour Tunnel to the north and the Eastern Distributor to the south, as part of the orbital motorway.

3:00 - The Eastern Distributor. It was originally planned as a surface motorway in the 1950s, but now most of it is in tunnel.

3:20 - We are on the lower deck of a double decker tunnel.

3:35 - Traffic from the Cross City Tunnel enters here on the right.

4:10 - This part of the Eastern Distributor was constructed as a cutting in the middle of South Dowling Street. It was not part of the original plans, which would have turned east to end up in Bondi as what is now Syd Einfeld Drive. The plans were modified in the 1980s to accommodate the orbital.

5:05 - Now, the Eastern Distributor becomes Southern Cross Drive. There's really no reason for the name change, except that Southern Cross Drive was around first - it used to simply dump all its traffic onto South Dowling Street.

6:30 - Southern Cross Drive used to end here, but it was always planned to continue further.

7:10 - Traffic wanting the Domestic terminal at the airport must exit to the right here.

7:40 - We are now on General Holmes Drive, still part of the orbital.

8:15 - Inside the Airport Tunnel, where General Holmes Drive passes under the north-south runway.

8:30 - The M5 motorway diverges to the left here. The M5 represents the continuation of the orbital from here, but we continue straight along General Holmes Drive (MR1).

8:40 - These viaducts carry the M5 over us and into a tunnel.

9:15 - 60 km/h speed limit as we enter Brighton-Le-Sands.

9:40 - General Holmes Drive has now become The Grand Parade.

9:55 - Brighton-Le-Sands. Some genius in the 1970s decided it was a good idea not to build the F6 freeway in Sydney, and to make this the main highway between Sydney and its southern suburbs instead.
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Old March 29th, 2009, 03:32 AM   #502
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Another great videos, especially the second one looks like a very interesting drive with all the tunnels and urban feeling. Excellent notes too, gives you sth to read meanwhile.
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Old March 29th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #503
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The plans for the upgrade of the M2 in Sydney:



Source: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/constructi.../m2/index.html
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:52 PM   #504
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Ugh. It looks like there's going to be the same difference in definition between states as to what constitutes an "M" road with the new alphanumeric route numbering system as there currently is with the definition of a freeway. I found this picture on OzRoads:



Source: http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/Special/MAB/evidence.htm

This part of the Hume Highway (currently NH31) near Marulan is dual carriageway 2x2 with all important junctions grade-separated and a speed limit of 110 km/h, with some at-grade local access roads. So why number it A31 and not M31?

In Victoria, this road is numbered M1 (although not for much longer; the Geelong Ring Road should be finished soon), yet in NSW they won't even give an "M" designation to a high speed limited access dual carriageway. This means that there will be no M31 connecting Sydney and Melbourne; it's going to be M31 from the outer limits of Sydney's metro area to about Berrima, then A31 through rural NSW, and then M31 again from Albury to where it hits the M80 (Melbourne's ring road).

Also, here is a sign approaching the eastern entrance to the Cross City Tunnel. Notice it says "To A4 Western Suburbs", implying that the Western Distributor isn't going to be an "M" road either, despite having always been legally a freeway.



Source: http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/Special/MAB/evidence.htm
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Old April 9th, 2009, 01:40 AM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robosteve View Post
So why number it A31 and not M31?
AFAIK, RTA intended to only sign declared freeways as 'M' standard routes - the freeway of course ends at Mereworth Road near Berrima.

That said, a new sign that went in 2007 as part of the Bowning Bypass project has an M31 shield so maybe they have changed their mind?



Quote:
Also, here is a sign approaching the eastern entrance to the Cross City Tunnel. Notice it says "To A4 Western Suburbs", implying that the Western Distributor isn't going to be an "M" road either, despite having always been legally a freeway.



Source: http://www.ozroads.com.au/NSW/Special/MAB/evidence.htm
Western Distributor is not a declared freeway. Although the viaducts over Darling Harbour were referred to as Stage 1 of the F3 when they were built, I'm not sure that it was ever declared a freeway.
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Old April 11th, 2009, 08:40 AM   #506
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The Australian states are making a mess of new route numbering systems; its inconsistencies astounding.

I've said this before on another forum and got some slack for it, but I don't think Australia needs alphanumeric numbering on its roads. The shield system that we used to have is much better.
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Old April 12th, 2009, 02:44 PM   #507
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Hi, I would like to share some photos of Sydney M4 and M7 (Motorway)

I toke them in my way to Katoomba












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Old April 12th, 2009, 03:00 PM   #508
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Few more in South Sydney





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Old April 14th, 2009, 03:23 AM   #509
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Looks very good not hugely busy though which is good.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 08:54 AM   #510
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Few photos I toke them in my way to Lithgow













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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:52 AM   #511
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Nice shots, especially those of Victoria Pass. Love the lighting.

It's a shame you didn't travel to Bathurst - the trip from Lithgow to Bathurst is one of my favourite in Australia.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 04:43 PM   #512
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Nice pictures. It seems to me that they don't have the speed limits marked on the road as much in Victoria as they do in New South Wales.

Like this:

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Old April 16th, 2009, 12:10 AM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by essendon bombers View Post
I've said this before on another forum and got some slack for it, but I don't think Australia needs alphanumeric numbering on its roads. The shield system that we used to have is much better.
I like the idea of making a distinction between M, A, B and C (even D if you're from South Australia). For the driver, it is much more interesting to know the standard of a road than what was done previously, namely showing who operates the road. What's the added value of knowing that the Buntine Highway is a national road if you're not told that it's actually a dirt road you might want to avoid, but that the Kakadu Highway may be a state road, but smooth bitumen? Australia's old numbering does not show that State Route 72 in Perth is a freeway, while State Route 5 is not. That's not what I like to see in my road numbering.

The problem in the new numbering is not in the change to alphanumeric, but the way individual states have completely gone their own way in deciding which road bears which number. The former national grid has been completely messed up. You have Queensland where former national numbers were changed into single-digit routes that won't cross the state border. You have SA that retained the former national grid but placed local road numbers in between that have nothing to do with that former grid. And you've got Victoria that may have retained the old numbers and has only used three-digit numbers for state routes, but where there has been no system whatsoever in linking the two-digit numbers and the three-digit numbers in a comprehensible way.

Australia would have been much better off if the alphanumeric routes would have been imposed from the federal level, with states, if anything, only being entitled to name single-digit metroads and which state routes they would like to see as three-digit alphanumeric routes. Doing so would have lead to a sensible system, as opposed to the mess created now by the individual states and territories.
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Old April 16th, 2009, 03:15 AM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post

And you've got Victoria that may have retained the old numbers and has only used three-digit numbers for state routes, but where there has been no system whatsoever in linking the two-digit numbers and the three-digit numbers in a comprehensible way.
I'm not sure if I follow 100%, the first bit I'm assuming you are talking about how Melbourne has retained the Metropolitan Route Numbering Scheme (blue shields) while the rest of the state has been converted? How the system was be installed in metropolitan Melbourne hasn't been decided yet. As there are only a handful of 3 digit alphanumerics at the fringe of the metropolitan area, it isn't a major problem in terms of transition.

The 'linking' of three digit alphanumeric routes to two digit alphanumeric routes does have guidelines. For example the 'loop route' numbering rule, whereby a route which starts and ends at the same parent route contains digits of the parent route. A good example is C312 along NH-M31, it's the second loop route north along the M31 from Melbourne. C313 is the third loop route, and so on.

And please don't use the term "State Route" when talking solely about the alphanumeric system, as State Routes themselves are a type of route numbering (the 'old' system).

Quote:
Australia would have been much better off if the alphanumeric routes would have been imposed from the federal level, with states, if anything, only being entitled to name single-digit metroads and which state routes they would like to see as three-digit alphanumeric routes. Doing so would have lead to a sensible system, as opposed to the mess created now by the individual states and territories.
Agreed, it's slowly turning into a dog's breakfast in relevance to interstate routes.
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Old April 16th, 2009, 04:00 AM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyknightsfan View Post
Western Distributor is not a declared freeway. Although the viaducts over Darling Harbour were referred to as Stage 1 of the F3 when they were built, I'm not sure that it was ever declared a freeway.
Apologies, this is incorrect. Western Distributor is indeed a declared freeway, however is not marked with the end/start freeway signs like it needs to be to have freeway road rules enforced.
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Old April 16th, 2009, 09:45 AM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vissiman_m31 View Post
I'm not sure if I follow 100%, the first bit I'm assuming you are talking about how Melbourne has retained the Metropolitan Route Numbering Scheme (blue shields) while the rest of the state has been converted?
No, my point was that the national highways/routes in Victoria have been converted into alphanumeric routes with the same number, i.e. NH 8 becoming A8, NR 23 becoming B23, NR 12 becoming B12 etc.

The loop numbering from the M31 seems to have its logic, but what I never really comprehended is how the two-digit numbers (i.e. former national routes and highways) ascend from east to west (B23 in the east, A79 in the west, the three-digit numbers seem to do the opposite with the B200 in the west and the B612 in the east. How can those ever tie in?

I know that state route is an obsolete term, but I couldn't find a better way to describe routes that were not in the former national grid.
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Old April 16th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
No, my point was that the national highways/routes in Victoria have been converted into alphanumeric routes with the same number, i.e. NH 8 becoming A8, NR 23 becoming B23, NR 12 becoming B12 etc.

The loop numbering from the M31 seems to have its logic, but what I never really comprehended is how the two-digit numbers (i.e. former national routes and highways) ascend from east to west (B23 in the east, A79 in the west, the three-digit numbers seem to do the opposite with the B200 in the west and the B612 in the east. How can those ever tie in?
That's because they don't. Those former National Highways/Routes kept their number as they were interstate routes. Since the National Routes already had an established grid system of numbers, it was decided it would be easier to maintain those numbers, as outlined under Australian Standards 1742 (the national guidelines for alphanumeric routes - note it's a 'guideline'), rather than start with something new.

Intrastate routes in Victoria are numbered by zone, as shown here:
http://mrv.ozroads.com.au/SRNS/class/class.htm#NR

There are 7 zones, increasing clockwise from the South Western Region to Eastern Region of the state, with outer Melbourne as Zone 7.

Whether they tie in or not is irrelevant when compared to how some interstate route will/are not carrying the same number across the border - such as B23, its has been reported it will be B80 in NSW

Of course you could have started with a new national grid of numbers, giving states certain zones and numbering rules, but you run the risk of running out of numbers, Victoria alone has about 380 C routes. Anything with more than 3 digits is a no-no in my books.

Quote:
I know that state route is an obsolete term, but I couldn't find a better way to describe routes that were not in the former national grid.
Just called them alphanumeric routes, or M, A, B, C routes - something that doesn't involve another route number entity . The formal name for alphanumerics in Victoria is the 'Statewide Route Numbering Scheme'.
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Old April 16th, 2009, 10:56 PM   #518
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Quote:
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Whether they tie in or not is irrelevant when compared to how some interstate route will/are not carrying the same number across the border - such as B23, its has been reported it will be B80 in NSW
Agree that the numbering changes in interstate routes are the most problematic part of it all. Can't understand someone has permitted that to happen. But still, I believe there are good reasons to align the interstate grid and the statewide numbering scheme rather than the two just co-existing without any integration. If you take the A/M31 for instance, wouldn't it be helpful if the three-digit routes somehow reflected that you're close to this national axis? It could be done by using numbers like B311 or C319 for routes in the vicinity and also numbering like C33[0-9] for routes slightly to the east and B29[0-9] for routes slightly to the west.

A numbering system like that would enable the driver to position himself relative to the routes that are in the national grid and thereby to find the way to the through roads. Anyway, it doesn't make any sense to change it all back now. Makes a nice what-if though to work out an alphanumeric system for Australia that would have made more sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vissiman_m31 View Post
Of course you could have started with a new national grid of numbers, giving states certain zones and numbering rules, but you run the risk of running out of numbers, Victoria alone has about 380 C routes. Anything with more than 3 digits is a no-no in my books.
Well, maybe 380 numbered roads for a state like Victoria is a bit over the top? I'm not as much into Victorian roads as you are, but you would expect that a lot of them are roads with a very local function only. Unless you really want every minor road numbered, you'd have to consider not numbering those. Just as was the case prior to the alphanumeric days. And if you do want to number, 4 digits may not be all that bad, since a 4-digit number will generally reflect the limited importance of the road.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 03:13 PM   #519
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Few photos I toke them in my way to Canberra on 01/May/2009

Photos start in Liverpool area






















More photos coming soon

Last edited by sky6one; May 8th, 2009 at 03:38 AM.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 04:23 PM   #520
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