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Old December 19th, 2007, 12:45 PM   #181
elfabyanos
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jkjkjk - will they eventually get to 200km/h? I can't add it on at the moment - but it could go on as u/c if CD are going to get it sorted. What is the problem? Is it signalling? Vehicle certification? Power suppply?
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Old December 19th, 2007, 12:51 PM   #182
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Elf, I dont like the new map with all the classic lines, they clutterup the picture of where the real HSL are. Just a personal opinion. Maybe you could grey them into the back ground with a less intense color.

Poland: What is the source for the 200+ km/h running from Warsaw to the north east. I am very sure that this line does not even achieve 160 km/h !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old December 19th, 2007, 12:52 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxxPower View Post
I'm pretty sure there are commuter and other trains running between Copenhagen and Malmö.

A DE-SE link would probably use the to-be-built Fehmarn Belt bridge though, in addition to Øresundsbron.
The Swedish X2000 high speed trains use this bridge but I can't veryify the speed limit on the bridge. I suspect that it is about 140 km/h
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Old December 19th, 2007, 12:58 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
jkjkjk - will they eventually get to 200km/h? I can't add it on at the moment - but it could go on as u/c if CD are going to get it sorted. What is the problem? Is it signalling? Vehicle certification? Power suppply?
There have been reports that the The Czech republic will increase the speeds over time with a new line for 20+km south west of Prague towards Plzen as the first construction but I can find no record any finance being committed to any project other than the upgrading of the four major corridors to 160 km/h.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:05 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post

Anyway, re. Paris - Lyon; In my opinion it's a new build - as in the line is designed to modern standards. What I mean by an 'upgraded' line is specifically upgraded from a classic line, upgrades of new high speed lines are not included in this definition, as there is basically no effective difference between this line and an HSL that started out at 300km/h.


With regards the categorisation, I have chosen 200km/h as a starting point because this is a generally well known threshold for what is a fast rail service, indeed this is the USA's official definition. If I were to include everything that's 160km/h and above I would have to include all sorts of random lines like Tonbridge to Ashford (linespeed 160km/h, average speed of a service on it approx 100-120km/h, not exactly awesome) which aren't exactly going to be representative of the cutting edge of high speed travel in the 21st century. I've divided it up into 50km/h ranges which to me is quite intuitive. It's going to be hard getting accurate info, and I'm going to have to specify a certain degree of inaccuracy w/respect to upgrade lines, but I'm really thankful for everyone's help - it wouldn't be possible without it. Hopefully it will all make sense in the end.

Thanks for the updates 33Hz, Castle_Bravo and eomer.
I am not suggesting that you include the lines at 160 km/h but there a few lines , especialy in Denmark which operate at 180 km/h which I consider to on a par with the 200km/h+ lines.

I agree that the Paris Lyon Line is a new built HSR, even HSRs can be upgraded. My point was that the entire line from Paris to Marseile is NOT operating at 300+ km/h. There are at least two long stretches which still operate at 275+ km/h becuase of the geography of the lines
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:07 PM   #186
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Elf
A small nit: You still have not corrected the new HSL in the Neterlands. It does not vist Den Hague
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:10 PM   #187
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Elf
Another small nit: The short section south east of Stockholm shown as 250+ should be blue as this line was completely new construction when it was built
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:13 PM   #188
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Elf

This is not a small nit: In Portugal I think that you are radically over stating the extent of 200+ plus running on the Lisboa - Porto line there are only a few sections at either end and may a short section in the center upgarded for 200+ running.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:15 PM   #189
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Elf

I have just realized that I can not distinguish the green from the black lines. The connecting lines are a real step backward
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Old December 19th, 2007, 01:21 PM   #190
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Elf

I apologise for all all my nagging comments.

This is a very worth while service which you are providing and I appaud you



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Old December 19th, 2007, 06:18 PM   #191
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I'm going to keep the connecting lines - again with another colour scheme change. After I've finished I can quite easily do a simplified version without them. The full version will need to be a bigger map than I'm uploading it at he moment. At the moment I'm trying to get a repository of suitable data. The interconnecting lines are quite useful at showing THE main benefit HSR has over Maglev aswell. Similarly it shows what a broad network we really have in Europe, and visually explains why some HSR lines are already near capacity even though they can have a 20-car train every 5 minutes.

Re Portugal - I haven't got any sources on this yet apart from the generalisation on wikipedia. It does need to be looked at - any sources?

Re. Sweden, thanks for the info - I've got a lot of work on Sweden!!!

Re. Poland - I can't remember!!! Again I need some sources for this country.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 08:47 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Poland: What is the source for the 200+ km/h running from Warsaw to the north east. I am very sure that this line does not even achieve 160 km/h !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's right.
The line from Warsaw to Gdańsk is now being upgraded for 200 km/h with tilting trains. It will be certified for only 160 km/h for non-tilting trains.
Construction works have been strated this year (2007), but they will end not sooner than 2013.

The line from Warsaw to Katowice (CMK, shown as dashed on the map) is the other way around: It was built new in 1970s, with curve radii for 250 km/h. But it was used at 160 km/h - the line has only classic signalling and insufficient overhead wires.
Some 2-3 years ago part of this line was upgraded and is now allowed for 200 km/h, although we don't have rolling stock (locomotives) for that velocity, so the line is still used at 160 km/h. This upgraded part is about 60 km at the southern end of the line (out of 220 km total). The rest of the line is also slowly upgraded to 200 km/h, but there are no dates available.

So, for Poland you should draw dashed line for Gdańsk-Warszawa and from Warszawa to the south (well, make a little larger gap around Warszawa between those two lines), with solid line at the end of the southern line.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 12:30 AM   #193
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The Portuguese line hits 220km/h or so for a couple stretches but for a lot of it it holds around 160 km/h, if I remember correctly. During a few stretches in the north (the northern part of the 200+ km/h purple line in the map, I mean), it was only hitting like 60-70 km, hehe. But the TGV will be coming to Portugal within a few years so it will change significantly then.

Oslo has a high speed line to the airport which hits over 200km/h I do believe. Not too long of a line, though.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 04:24 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
That's right.
The line from Warsaw to Gdańsk is now being upgraded for 200 km/h with tilting trains. It will be certified for only 160 km/h for non-tilting trains.
Construction works have been strated this year (2007), but they will end not sooner than 2013.
So far only a short section which suffers from very bad curves has been placed under a construction contact. Most to the line has not even been tendered for design services.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 04:28 AM   #195
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I have just found the report on the opening of the quadruple line to Utrecht from close to Amsterdam in Todays Railway TR#142.

The civil engineering was completed to eventually support operations at up to 200lm/h however the intial opening of the line used 1500Vdc power supply and the traditional Dutch signaling.

To support operations this report states that the signaling will have to be upgraded to ETCS Level #2 and the power supply upgraded to 25kVac to suport operational at 200km/h "if the track is suitable". These upgrades have not been funded or scheduled so this line should not be shown as green.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 08:31 PM   #196
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The info posted earlier in the thread advises that the line is capable of 200km/h under the native dutch power and signaliing, but will be upgraded to 300km/h, with new power and ETCS level 2. Can I have your source to compare? Apparently the power supply was designed to be easily compatible with uprating to 25kV, rather than having to rip it out and start again.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 05:28 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post


Changes:

Yet another change to the colour scheme.
Eastern Europe has resurfaced.
UK, Italy, France, Benelux, Germany - added in classic lines served by trains that use the high speed lines for part of their journey.
Italy - added the pontybarny thing at Udine.

After deliberation I've decided to keep the CMK in Poland as a classic line.

Still to come - Norway, Denmark, Russia, Sweden fixes, Switzerland fixes, classic lines in all other countries.
Great update!

The best HSR map that I have seen, for the moment.

BTW:
2 new HSR lines start service today in Spain: Madrid-Valladolid and Madrid-Málaga. Also Madrid-Barcelona line was expected to open today, but it has been delayed until March of 2008 due to technical problems.
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Old December 21st, 2007, 12:58 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
The info posted earlier in the thread advises that the line is capable of 200km/h under the native dutch power and signaliing, but will be upgraded to 300km/h, with new power and ETCS level 2. Can I have your source to compare? Apparently the power supply was designed to be easily compatible with uprating to 25kV, rather than having to rip it out and start again.
Todays Railway number TR#142. This is a usually reliable source which usually reports the press releases from the railway companies verbatim. By the way, given the severity of the power supply problems in the Netherlands, I would be very surprised if any trains were allowed to draw the extra power for high speed operations from the 1500Vdc nerwork

I am sure this section of railway has been designed for higher speeds eventually. My point is simply that it is not operating at 200km/h today and it may be quite a few years before it is upgraded to 200 km/h.
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 03:55 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post


Changes:

Yet another change to the colour scheme.
Eastern Europe has resurfaced.
UK, Italy, France, Benelux, Germany - added in classic lines served by trains that use the high speed lines for part of their journey.
Italy - added the pontybarny thing at Udine.

After deliberation I've decided to keep the CMK in Poland as a classic line.

Still to come - Norway, Denmark, Russia, Sweden fixes, Switzerland fixes, classic lines in all other countries.
Great job, here are a few indications on speeds performed by the TGV on the classic lines they serve :
* The Mediterranean coast line :
** Nice - south of Draguignan (the line doesn't serve this town) : 100-120
** South of Draguignan - Marseilles via Toulon : 140-160, then drops at around 100-120 when approaching Marseilles
** Nimes (end of HSR) - Perpignan :140-160 km/h,
** Perpignan to the Spanish border : 120-140.
* Tours (end of HSR) to Bordeaux : mostly upgraded to 160-220, but not entirely (slow downs in the Angoulême area)
* Tours-Dax : 140-160
* Dax-Bayonne : 120-140
* Bayonne to Spain : 100-120
* Bayonne/Tarbes/Saint Gaudens : 120-140
* Bordeaux-Toulouse-Narbonne : 140-160
* Poitiers-Niort-La Rochelle : 110-140
* Le Mans (end of HSR)-Nantes : 160-220
* Le Mans-Brest and other Brittany links : 140-160 mostly
* In eastern France, lines are often limited to 120 (except a few stretches allowing 140-160)

All of those informations come from the map published by RFF.

By the way, has work started on the HSR in Portugal ?
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Old December 25th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #200
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I can assure you there's no HSR line in Poland nor there will be any till 2015.

CMK is for 160 kmh and Warsaw-Gdansk is for 120 kmh only, it is being upgraded now but in a "standard" polish schedule which means first train going faster than 120 kmh will go there no earlier than in 10 years. Even when completed it is designed for 140/160 kmh only and 200kmh in some parts for tilt-body trains.
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