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Old January 27th, 2008, 07:03 AM   #221
sotavento
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Portuguese High Speed Network

Yellow/Orange = proposed TGV network (

Yellow lines = Environmental Inpact studies completed , public consultancy finished , already on the move to be built.
(note: notice the yellow line connecting both southern red lines ... its a 20km "new" line already under construction connecting two separated "upgraded" lines ... the 3 sections are built as to allow 250kmh running while currently operated at 200/220kmh)

Orange lines = undes EIS or public consultancy ...

Orange dots = proposed lines , under various study phases

Red = "Upgraded" lines of at least 200kmh (more than 400km of track)
most are limited as 220kmh decause of comercial exploration maximization only ...
try to cope +2000ton. coal trains with +220kmh fast trains and regional "stopper" passenger trains

Blue = main lines < 160kmh (more than 1400km of track)
some stretches are in fact limited to 160kmh ... but most are at standard 140kmh (like the missing parts of the main line Faro-Lisboa-Porto-Braga) and some branches at 100/120kmh ... expected to be continualy upgraded in the near future

Besides the "new" HighSpeed lines (more than 600km built from scratch to 300/360(*)kmh running already decided ... more lines under study) there will be "atleast" some 300km of "new" dedicated freight lines

Some major engeniering works (like a 8/10km "dual" bridge over the Tagus river with 4 tracks + 3+3 highway) are under way ... another two bridges in the borders with spain (over the "miño" near Valença/Tuy and over the "Guadiana" near VilaRealS.Antonio/Ayamonte)

sidenote: the basic "new" TGV network will be up and running by 2010/2013 ... the dotted aditions probably by 2015/2017 ... the north-south "upgraded" line is still under engenyering works (some 200km more will be upgraded in the next 2/3 years to allow 160/220kmh running)

sidenote2: some of the "upgraded" tracks are at 220kmh for "pendular" trains only (other trains run at 160/190kmh speeds) ... other "upgraded" stretches of track are in fact NEW TRACKS built to 250/300kmh standards but limited to 220kmh by ANY train fast enough to use them.

sidenote3: IC trains with 5600 class locomotives and corail coaches are branded T200 (max. speed 200kmh) in northern line nowadays .. .and we have the Fiat Alfa Pendular wich link the +700km between Braga and Faro a couple of times every day in hourly(half hourly at peak times) runs.
actualy no train runs the hole lenght ... as services are Lisboa-Porto-Braga and Faro-Lisboa-Porto and Lisboa-Porto

Quote:
just for clarification of this mess:

Aproximately how Portuguese Railway Netwoek will look like in 2020 or so:

some of the lines will be operated at only 160/220kmh for economic reasons .... mainly due to there being much more freight than rapid passenger services in some areas.
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Last edited by sotavento; January 29th, 2008 at 02:07 AM.
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Old January 27th, 2008, 08:16 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Elf

This is not a small nit: In Portugal I think that you are radically over stating the extent of 200+ plus running on the Lisboa - Porto line there are only a few sections at either end and may a short section in the center upgarded for 200+ running.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Re Portugal - I haven't got any sources on this yet apart from the generalisation on wikipedia. It does need to be looked at - any sources?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan1113 View Post
The Portuguese line hits 220km/h or so for a couple stretches but for a lot of it it holds around 160 km/h, if I remember correctly. During a few stretches in the north (the northern part of the 200+ km/h purple line in the map, I mean), it was only hitting like 60-70 km, hehe. But the TGV will be coming to Portugal within a few years so it will change significantly then.

Oslo has a high speed line to the airport which hits over 200km/h I do believe. Not too long of a line, though.
About portuguese North line:
There are about 220km of line already fully upgraded to 200/220kmh ... some major engeneering works are underway (like de cut and cover tunnel at Espinho , quadruplication v.f.xira-azambuja , etc) ... then somewhere in the middle of this year(or next) there will be the upgrade of the remaining southern section (about 50km long) ... and the rest of the line "upgrade" work (basicaly the urban acesses to porto , coimbra and VFXira) will be integrated in the TGV program (quadruplication will put 2 new TGV/"mixed trafic" lines and the current 2 tracks will remain for freight and urban trains.
Acording to UCI these "urban access corridors" at 140kmh count as being part of the HSL because they are small and localized.

Portuguese South Line:

There are currently 2 sectionsof aproximately 60km each at 200/220kmh ... and a 20km section is underconstruction in between

The remaining 200+ sections are at Porto-Braga and a renewed 25km stretch near Evora (forgot to put this 25km stretch into the previous post),
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 27th, 2008, 12:05 PM   #223
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Sotavento, to be honest I don't see how it is possible that so much is 200+? Virtually the only time we hit 220 (actually hit 223) going between Lisbon and Porto (which we did twice on the train) was just a bit north of Lisbon. The rest of the time it was 160ish with plenty of 60-70ish a bit more toward Porto.
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Old January 29th, 2008, 12:37 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan1113 View Post
Sotavento, to be honest I don't see how it is possible that so much is 200+? Virtually the only time we hit 220 (actually hit 223) going between Lisbon and Porto (which we did twice on the train) was just a bit north of Lisbon. The rest of the time it was 160ish with plenty of 60-70ish a bit more toward Porto.
If you are remembering hitting 223 it certainly shouldn't be in the stetch a little bit nort of Lisbon (it's a pure 200kmh zone) ... and the funny part is just precisely that ... THE 200/220kmh zones shorten travel times imensely.

Every 40/60km o high speed track only takes 10/15 minutes to travell thru instead of the previous 30/40 it took when it was 120/140kmh track ... and precisely on the high speed stretches you DONT see that much ... they pass fast enough ... lets see:

Porto-Ovar is slow JAMMED track ... the next stop is in the middle of the 220kmh zone and you get a huge time given ... ("desdobramento" <- in peak times they sent extra trains ahead of the regular scheduled train .. .and these make the hole Porto/Gaia-Lisboa without stops ... these gain a lot of minutes but suffer from the same "getting yellow signals the hole voyage" simpthoms) next you get to go to Coimbra and another 30/40km of slow travell ... and next you get to do the rest of the voyage without stops ... as most of it (2/3) is done at 200/220kmh you only notice the slow part as it takes more than half the travell time.

It's usual to see some 227/228 steadily for 5/10 minutes in those journeys ... ad this while the pendulations systems travel the hole course right-left-right-left for the entire highspeed zone .

And you are completely ignoring the fact that HALF the high speed zones are south of Tejo.

A compilation of 2003 showing some works in progress at that time:

A warning ... Don't be fooled by the seemingly slow speeds as it's a crappy video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PV-dUD2z-qM

And as you can see pendulation doesn't serve only for high speed:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZqHd5wOwF3w



And as a coment to your comment I should add that last time I traveled on GNER IC225 we were "slow running" most of the time ... FGW HST service is run at a pace ... and Virgin Pendulinos Rock when pusheb in some backwash secundary line behind a diesel thunderbird ... and lastly ... last time I traveled in a AVE100 train we did the entire codroba-sevilla at less than 200kmh ... and we stopped some 10 tines along the way ... network problems are always arround somewhere.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; January 29th, 2008 at 12:44 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2008, 06:43 PM   #225
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If I remember correctly one of the times we hit 223 was when I could see the Vasco da Gama bridge outside? I might be mistaken though.

Last edited by Dan; January 29th, 2008 at 06:55 PM.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 12:16 AM   #226
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Guys, guys, guys....! It's km/h (kilometres per hour), not "kmh" (kilometre hours)...
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Old February 16th, 2008, 12:58 AM   #227
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Small update (I'm getting there) and no, I still haven't understood Sweden yet so I've lopped it off for the time being (sorry Sweden). Loads still not updated. Tell if the new colour scheme is any good.

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Old February 16th, 2008, 12:55 PM   #228
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the lines to Malaga and Barcelona have been recently finished
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Old February 16th, 2008, 01:12 PM   #229
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Thank you for the new color scheme,
It works much better.

I still have a number of nits which I will document in a few days


Thank You again
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Old February 16th, 2008, 01:34 PM   #230
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There's so much wrong with it!!! We'll get there in the end.

Cheers Dinivan, I didn't know the Malaga line was open, I bet someone said it on the previous pages though. Re Barcelona I'm just being **** because services don't start this week
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Old February 16th, 2008, 09:10 PM   #231
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Not sure what the criteria for the grey lines in the UK is, but you are missing major intercity lines between Reading and Taunton, Leeds and Manchester, London and Norwich and London and Brighton. This former 3 all carry IC-type services and the latter has expresses of similar type to the London to Bournemouth line, so should also be there. Also there is a branch from the ECML to Cambridge which should be there.

Also what about Ireland's classic lines?
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Old February 16th, 2008, 09:56 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Cheers Dinivan, I didn't know the Malaga line was open, I bet someone said it on the previous pages though. Re Barcelona I'm just being **** because services don't start this week
ok ok! :P BTW, Geneva is connected to the rest of the Swiss system, I dunno why it isn't painted in grey.
Anyway, thanks for the map! you're doing a great job hehe
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Old February 16th, 2008, 10:19 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Not sure what the criteria for the grey lines in the UK is, but you are missing major intercity lines between Reading and Taunton, Leeds and Manchester, London and Norwich and London and Brighton. This former 3 all carry IC-type services and the latter has expresses of similar type to the London to Bournemouth line, so should also be there. Also there is a branch from the ECML to Cambridge which should be there.

Also what about Ireland's classic lines?
The criteria for the grey lines is that they are served by high speed trains that run at high speed on the high speed lines drawn, so in effect it's just a map of the high speed lines' train services. Alas Leed/Manchester doesn't therefore qualify. However re the Greaqt Western branch I just forgot!!! I only realised after doing the UK that HSTs used the reading-taunton line (even though the first train book I ever read was about the HST!!! ). Brighton could have been included last year but I now believe the crosscountry Voyagers no longer serve us since Arriva took over. But, they still serve Bournemouth so I'll add that in too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinivan View Post
ok ok! :P BTW, Geneva is connected to the rest of the Swiss system, I dunno why it isn't painted in grey.
Anyway, thanks for the map! you're doing a great job hehe
Unfortunately due to the CERN facility all connections between Geneva and the rest of Switzerland have been cut at a quantum level. Or maybe it's my mistake!!!
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Old February 16th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #234
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I think the new line which join Seville and Antequera(Málaga) is a new line for speeds around 250+, not just and upgraded track. It's being built in UIC gauge following another different route from the previous railway line. Isn't it? Just asking... xD. elfabyanos, one more question, are you going to put all the other ALVIA services in Spain following the criteria for grey lines?
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Old February 16th, 2008, 11:17 PM   #235
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Answer yes if someone could get me the info - I've found no maps showing the full routes of each service for Spain. Re Sevilla and Antequera I'll change that, looking at Wikimapia it does seem to be a new line beside the old one, with bypasses for some towns?
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Old February 16th, 2008, 11:38 PM   #236
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Then I will tell you the ALVIA routes which go through conventional (iberic gauge) and high speed lines. Of course these trains can change their gauge in a matter of seconds.

Alicante - Albacete - Madrid - Segovia - Valladolid - Palencia - Santander

Alicante - Albacete - Madrid - Segovia - Valladolid - Palencia - León - Oviedo - Gijón

Madrid - Segocia - Valladolid - Burgos - Bilbao

Madrid - Segovia - Valladolid - Burgos - Vitoria - San Sebastian - Irún

BTW, congrats for your work. It's awesome and extrmely appreciated.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 12:06 PM   #237
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Stifler - I've added grey lines in to represent these services. Can you clarify for me (if you know) these Alvia services are operated by 200km/h loco hauled and series 100 tilting trains is that correct? Or were the loco hauled rebranded to something else? If so, I need the loco hauled routes as well because if they are 200km/h they qualify for status on the map. Also north of Madrid (or in fact anywhere) does Alvia operate on the High Speed Line or do they go parallel on a classic line? I've seen vids on Youtube where the series 100s take the High Speed Line but not sure about the loco hauled or whether this was on this route (the series 100 on the same track as an s-100, which means it's the Madrid-Seville/Malaga line correct?)

Sotavento - I want to sort out Portugal along the lines of the map you posted previously, but as there have been challenges to the information I would be really grateful if you could provide some sources for reference. Not only is this thread about producing this map but it's also turned into quite a good resource for supporting data.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 01:47 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
The criteria for the grey lines is that they are served by high speed trains that run at high speed on the high speed lines drawn, so in effect it's just a map of the high speed lines' train services. Alas Leed/Manchester doesn't therefore qualify. However re the Greaqt Western branch I just forgot!!! I only realised after doing the UK that HSTs used the reading-taunton line (even though the first train book I ever read was about the HST!!! ). Brighton could have been included last year but I now believe the crosscountry Voyagers no longer serve us since Arriva took over. But, they still serve Bournemouth so I'll add that in too.
I've just checked on National Rail Enquiries and Cross Country do still serve Reading to Gatwick Airport (via Guildford and Redhill) and Brighton (via Kensington, East Croydon, Gatwick and Haywards Heath) with one or two trains a day.

Also:

-The GWML branch to Torquay and Paignton is served by occasional FGW HSTs direct from London.

-There are direct NXEC ECML services between London and Inverness, routed via Edinburgh, Falkirk, Stirling, Perth and Aviemore.

-NXEC serve Bradford, there should be a short branch of grey from Leeds.

-Cross Country trains operate a direct Birmingham to Glasgow service via Leeds. This goes via Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Westfield, Leeds, then north east to join the ECML at York to continue via Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

-East Midlands trains operate direct London to Leeds HSTs via Sheffield and Doncaster and direct London to York Meridians also via Sheffield and Doncaster, thereby allowing the whole Midland Mainline route to be included.

-The loop of the WCML through Northampton sees Virgin Pendolino services.

-The last few miles into Manchester are surely not 200km/h? (I could be wrong)

-Perhaps dashed grey lines in Kent where the Javelin will go next year?

-Don't know if diversion routes count, but GNER/NXEC HSTs have been routed by the Settle and Carlisle before and soon Cross Country will be routed via Basingstoke-Salisbury-Southampton while work is done on the Southampton tunnel.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #239
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Here's the next update. It's a GIF now, hopefully that'll give better distinction of lines that are similar brightness to the background. Added: Geneva - rest of Switzerland. All of Switzerland has been re-jigged - the upgrade line now goes from where it goes rather than somewhere else where it was before (does that make sense?) Spain - grey lines added, status changed on a few sections. I've changed the Direttisima to 250-upgrading-to-300, on the Railway Technology site it says it's being upgraded with change in power to AC and curve alterations.



Quote:
-The GWML branch to Torquay and Paignton is served by occasional FGW HSTs direct from London.

-There are direct NXEC ECML services between London and Inverness, routed via Edinburgh, Falkirk, Stirling, Perth and Aviemore.

-NXEC serve Bradford, there should be a short branch of grey from Leeds.

-Cross Country trains operate a direct Birmingham to Glasgow service via Leeds. This goes via Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Westfield, Leeds, then north east to join the ECML at York to continue via Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

-East Midlands trains operate direct London to Leeds HSTs via Sheffield and Doncaster and direct London to York Meridians also via Sheffield and Doncaster, thereby allowing the whole Midland Mainline route to be included.

-The loop of the WCML through Northampton sees Virgin Pendolino services.
Cool, I didn't realise, will add.

Quote:
-The last few miles into Manchester are surely not 200km/h? (I could be wrong)
I'm not sure either - can anyone clarify?

Quote:
-Perhaps dashed grey lines in Kent where the Javelin will go next year?
Good idea.

I won't include diversionary route at the moment, presuming they don't serve new stations on the alternative routes it might just make loads of work if I had to do this all accross Europe, and undo it again later!!!

Re. XC to Brighton, that's great news - I might even go and take a photo of one!
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Old February 17th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #240
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Just looked at the timetable for East Midland Trains, I can see the 3 Leeds - London services (in direct competition with NXEC - how exciting!!) but I can't see the York service? The Brighton XC is with us until May at least. I have a sorry feeling they will then discontinue it
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