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Old March 3rd, 2008, 10:52 PM   #281
Rebasepoiss
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I would've expected that the traffic flow is more than enough between 2 multi-million cities to enable over one train per hour.
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Old March 3rd, 2008, 11:36 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma-Hamster View Post
I already did, it was my first post here?
Here is an English translation:
Quote:
The German concern Siemens at the beginning of December 2008 to supply Russian Railways first fast train Velaro Rus, described by the press service of the October Railway (railroad, a subsidiary of CFR), with reference to the words of the Acting Deputy Chief Engineer OZHD Vladimir Andreev.

"In early December 2008 the first train to arrive Velaro Rus, after which work will begin to bring it to an acceptable level after the transport and mileage warranty to 5 thousand km. Released This allows the train to certification testing" - said the report.

According to Andreeva, by December this year CFR complete the construction of infrastructure on the line St. Petersburg - Moscow in the organization of high-speed traffic. CFR organization implements the project of high-speed communication between Moscow and St. Petersburg. The company entered into a contract with the German Siemens for the supply of high-speed trains 8 Velaro Rus.
CFR is also considering the possibility of organizing a high-speed traffic between Moscow and Nizhni Novgorod.
This is exactly what I have been trying to say about the available sources in Russia.

I am looking for detailed plans such as I can read in from RFF in France, BVW in Germany or Network Rails business plan.

Quote:
Number of trains per hour has nothing to do with speed of the line. We don't need so much trains between Moscow and St.Petersburg.
This is where we fundmentally dis-agree!

Running one premium train per day is just like running the "Royal Scotsman" in the 1930's and the "20th Century Limited" in the 1950's. Real high speed lines are built for modern operations running multiple trains per hour to justify the large investment in high speed railways. I can find no evidence that the Russian Authorities have made any thing which is remotely close to that level of investment yet and I have been tracking the investment in the Moscow/St.Petersburg route for 20 years since the late 1980's.

I am sorry that I cannot support the assertion that Russia has joined the real high speed rail countries. Determine for your self who they are by reading the World Speed Survey, 2007 which I referenced in post #219.

Here it is again: [click on "World Speed Survey, 2007" for the full report (second paragraph)]:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_v...rformance.html

See page #557 for the Moscow - St. Petersburg line in the context of this bi-annual survey.
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Old March 3rd, 2008, 11:39 PM   #283
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Old March 3rd, 2008, 11:52 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Here's the next update. It's a GIF now, hopefully that'll give better distinction of lines that are similar brightness to the background. ...


Added the current status of portuguese network.



Current status:

HSL Vigo(Spain)-(Border)-Braga-Porto

(Border)-Braga is still in the "only god knows" domain ... it will be 60km of mixed traffic 250km/h NEW LINE

Braga-Porto is almost 99% up to standards ... it allows for 140/220km/h running today ... it will be almost ALL 200km/h when the HS Trains start running the entire stretch ... it will be used for the AV in the beginning
- Near trofa a new variant is being built ... this was a major setback some years ago as the NEW MUNICIPALITY (having only recently been promoted to municipio) strongly oposed the electrification ... so after more than 1 year of discussions REFER (portuguese infraestructure company) just went ahead and electrified the SINGLE TRACK section ... now they are building a double track variant "outside" the city.
- The section of 4/5 tracks just north of Porto is being extended further north ...
- plans for a Porto-(Airport)-Braga NEW LINE are still under discussion

Lisboa-Porto "northern" Main Line

Porto-Gaia has seen a new bridge and tunel built in the nineties (São João bridge)
Gaia-Espinho is 20km and still under studies as it is a densely "suburban" area.
- at Espinho a section of tunel is being built under the city (1500m) only at 150m of the seashore.
Espinho-Aveiro-Mealhada are 75km of 220 km/h upgraded line
- Major new station built at Aveiro
Mealhada-Coimbra-Alfarelos is a 35km of "suburban" line at 120/140 km/h
Alfarelos-Pombal-Entroncamento are more than 80km of "upgraded" 220km/h (pendular only) main line. <<< its a very curvey stretch ... BRITISH FOLKS ... If we could do It WCML could also be at 220km/h in the near future.
Entroncamento-Santarem-Azambja is a stretch of 60km "unrenovated" track ... it should be at 220km/h nowadays but the MOVE to a new AV line has put the renovation plans on hold ... it is planed to "only" upgrade it to 160km/h (althow pendular trains could be alowed higher ???)
Azambuja-V.F.Xira-Lisboa(OrientStation) is a section of 4 track "upgraded" to 200/220 km/h (actualy 2 of them are new lines and 2 were upgraded)
- it includes some major new stations (including Calatrava's "Oriente" Statio) and other "interesting" works
If it weren't for the comprimises with spain about a NEW High Speed network the rest of the line would also be upgraded to 220km/h from tip to toe ... so now the remaining stretches were wither "downgraded" or will instead be a part of the new Lisboa-Porto HSL

In the middle of NOWHERE theres a 25km stretch of recently renovated track prepared to High Speed 250 km/h running and with bi-bitola sleepers ... its Between Evora and Casa Branca and will be a part of the freight Sines-Badajoz-Madrid main line to be built in the near future (it is actualy a part of the Lisboa-Madrid HSL corridor)

Lisboa-Algarve "Southern" Main Line is partly renovated also (actualy it mostly NEW lines along the path of the old ones)

Lisboa-Coina is an "suburban" new line built in late nineties
- includes a NEW 20km long cross tagus crossing in old 25/4 bridge ... it carries some 100.000 passengers daily nowadays
- due to the curvy trackage it is mostly viaducts limited to 160km/h tops and has some 45km/h curves ... while the "Tagus" bridge itself is limited to 60km/h
Coina-PinhalNovo is a NEW 15km line built to 200/220 km/h speeds with a very CURIOUS ... WRONG WAY alignement ... a soutwest-northeast 200km/h line in a corridor nortwest-southeast ???
PinhalNovo-Setubal are 12km more of "upgraded" trackage at 200km/h ... most "InterCity" trains to algarve do this rundabound (Setubal is 120.000 hab.)
Setubal-AguasDeMoura is a 15km single line 100/140 km/h line (used by intercity trains in their way south)
PinhalNovo-Poceirão-AguasDeMoura is an "upgraded" 220 km/h two track line - only pendular and freight trains run this way towards algarve nowadays ...
- "intercity" trains to alentejo run the PinhalNovo-Poceirão stretch ... but these are still run by diesel loco haulage
AguasDeMoura-Pinheiro-Alcaçer-Grandola-Ermidas is an 85km single line "upgraded" stretch partly at 220 km/h
- the first 15km are a single line at 140/200km/h in corridor prepared to upgrade to two track
- the next 20km are old and slow "electrified only" track ... a 20km variant is currently being built .. .it will allow for 250km/h double track trains in the near future
- the remain 50km are all SINGLE TRACK 220 km/h NEW line built along the old corridor.
Ermidas-TorreVã-Funcheira is partly (20km) double track at 220km/h and partly single track windy at 80 km/h

From this point south theres only "plans" to future upgrades ... and the current line is at 110/140 km/h (and this is with pendulation) ... as they were getting tight scheduled to Euro2004 they didn't made provisions to upgrade the line to a higher profile back then ... just get rid of the extreme slow speed points (some as low as 10km/h back then) and electrify ... someday it will completely redone all over again.

Possible further HSL upgrades include:
- a direct line into the "west" main line
- an upgrade of the 180km "beira alta" line ... Pampilhosa/Coimbra-Guarda-Salamanca-Madrid/Irun ... to allow pendulation (its a 160km/h line but it was renovated prior to the introduction of pendular trains so pendulation was not taken into acount back then) <<< its a shame since it is the Lisboa-Paris direct line
- an upgrade of the 120km "alentejo" line ... to alow for 200 plus trains to reach the NEW airport buit there ... it doesn't even require pendulation since it is perfectly flat land and was built in 1860 with DUPLICATION space ... currently is at 140 km/h.
- an upgrade of the 150km ""leste" main line ... connection between north and the Lisboa-Madrid HSL ??

In 10 years time the network will consist of:

Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid = 220(?)km +300 km/h NEW HSL
Lisboa-Algarve = 310km of 220 km/h "mixed" HSL (130km are projected to 250km/h but run at only 220km/h due to excessive usage of heavy freight trains) ... cunversion to FULL HSL of the entire lisboa-sevilla corridor is still being evaluated
Lisboa-Alentejo = HSL spurs to Beja and Evora (using the old lines)
Lisboa-coimbra-Aveiro-Porto = 330km of 220 km/h "upgraded" line + 290km of NEW HSL (the middle sections are not along the same region)
Coimbra/Aveiro-Guarda-Salamanca = 180km of either "upgraded" or "NEW HSL"
Porto-Braga-Vigo = 110km of "upgraded" and "NEW HSL" at 200/250 km/h

220 + 130 (or 310) + 330 + 290 + 180 + 110 = 1260(1440)km


There will be more than 1200 km HSL in portugal in the near future.
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Last edited by sotavento; March 4th, 2008 at 01:01 AM.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 12:11 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post

Added the current status of portuguese network.

Now I am really curious! What is the source of your information as I cannot find any references which identify speeds of 200+ km/h south of Lisboa.

You are showing a lot of planned lines at 300+ km/h but have any of these proposals actually been funded and has construction actually started.

I ask because for the last 10 years a new plan for HSL's in Portugal has been published every 2-3 years. The last HSL plan for Portugal which I read specified new lines running at 250+ km/h not 300+ km/h


Added at 6:38 pm
Yes I have read all the reports which you have just listed in very usefull detail.
None of this has been been funded yet.

With out funding commitments these reports represent aspirations, they do not actually represent commitments. This is the same problem That I have with Gamma-Hampster's asertions about Russia.

I don't believe that any thing will happen untill construction actuall begins!!!!!
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Old March 4th, 2008, 11:51 AM   #286
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Thanks very much for all the detail sotavento, and thanks for the info gamma-hampster.

As trainman dave says we really do need sources for this info otherwise we are not achieving much by this map I'm doing. To quote Swede who posted my map on Skyscraperpage "...usual caveat about SSC reliabity". There's no point in doing the map if people are going to argue over whether or not it's right. Everything on my map so far has evidence to back it up (I hope!!!) and I've got to be **** about it. HSL Zuid isn't completed on my map until revenue earning services begin.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 07:37 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Now I am really curious! What is the source of your information as I cannot find any references which identify speeds of 200+ km/h south of Lisboa.

You are showing a lot of planned lines at 300+ km/h but have any of these proposals actually been funded and has construction actually started.

I ask because for the last 10 years a new plan for HSL's in Portugal has been published every 2-3 years. The last HSL plan for Portugal which I read specified new lines running at 250+ km/h not 300+ km/h


Added at 6:38 pm
Yes I have read all the reports which you have just listed in very usefull detail.
None of this has been been funded yet.

With out funding commitments these reports represent aspirations, they do not actually represent commitments. This is the same problem That I have with Gamma-Hampster's asertions about Russia.

I don't believe that any thing will happen untill construction actuall begins!!!!!
You should try learning to "google" a little bit better ... it even has "translation" functionalities nowadays.



Some help for you:

http://www.refer.pt portuguese infraestructure company
http://www.rave.pt portuguese high speed network company (actualy it's part of REFER)
http://www.iambiente.pt local ambient ministery page ... it's where the Environmental Impact Auditions papers are located in PDF
for more information just google for some keywords like "tgv" "alta velocidade" "alfa pendular" etc etc etc

elfabyanos ... it realy is a dificult puzzle to put together over here.

Some timetabled times:

Porto-Gaia-coimbra-Lisboa-PinhalNovo-Tunes-Faro <<< 2 direct trains each direction per day
Gaia-Lisboa = 330km in 2h30
Coimbra-Lisboa = 210km in 1h30
Porto-Gaia-Coimbra is the most conjested part of portuguese network and while more than half of it is at 220km/h theres no space available to put a full speed train
Lisboa-PinhalNovo is an urban runabound of 45km at slow speeds (with half of it at 200km/h) and trains usualy have long extra time given (usualy Alfa Pendular waits more than 5 minutes at each end) and have 4 intermediate stops ... 45km in 50 minutes
PinhalNovo-Tunes = 220km in 1h50 ... of wich only 120 are currently at 220km/h and the rest dont pass 100/110 km/h in much streches ... there are works currently in a variant at alcacer that will remove an aditional 10min. from the scheduled time.
Tunes-Faro is another "urban" strech = 40km in 30 minutes

Pendulation is used FULL course thru most of the +600km of the route even where south line only alows speeds of 110km/h (stretches where conventional trains only run at 80/90 km/h) ... but theres some excessive 50 min to 1h on top of the timetable due to contingencies (south of porto and lisboa area are that congested).

After Trofa(porto-braga) VFXira(lisboa-porto) and Alcaçer (Lisboa-Algarve) are removed from the Black List there will probably be another 30 minutes removed from current timetibles ... and work should start in re-upgrading southen parts again untill the grey areas (in the map) are fully 200/220km/h
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Old March 4th, 2008, 08:45 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
As trainman dave says we really do need sources for this info otherwise we are not achieving much by this map I'm doing..
Russia Railroads already payed Siemens 600mln euro for 8 trains, and Siemens started building trains back in July 2007


http://transportation.siemens.com/ts...20_07_2007.htm
Quote:
Start of production for Russian high speed train

Bodyshell production starts at the Siemens plant in Krefeld-Uerdingen

Krefeld, Jul 20, 2007
Starting at the end of 2009, these trains should be running at speeds of up to 250 km/h on a line connecting Moscow and St. Petersburg.
And i already posted an article which says that Siemens will deliver first train on time.

http://www.gudok.ru/index.php/news/9988
Quote:
По словам В.Андреева, к декабрю текущего года РЖД завершит создание инфраструктуры на линии Санкт-Петербург - Москва в рамках организации скоростного движения.
Here Russian Railroads representative says that upgrade of the existing line will be finished in december 2008, which implies that upgrade is already going for some time now.
Nevsky Express was operating at speed up to 200km/h for years already on this line.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 09:56 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
As trainman dave says we really do need sources for this info otherwise we are not achieving much by this map I'm doing. To quote Swede who posted my map on Skyscraperpage "...usual caveat about SSC reliabity". There's no point in doing the map if people are going to argue over whether or not it's right. Everything on my map so far has evidence to back it up (I hope!!!) and I've got to be **** about it. HSL Zuid isn't completed on my map until revenue earning services begin.
That was my point, yes And that's why I like your map - it isn't about some forumer saying "we have fast trains!!!!!" it's about good references, it's about stuff that can be proven.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 10:34 PM   #290
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http://www.eng.rzd.ru/wps/portal/rzd...UCTURE_ID=4054


Quote:
Trains will run at speeds of 160 kmph on the existing main line between Moscow and St. Petersburg and cover the distance between the two cities in 3 hours 45 minutes. At the moment, two ER-200 trains made by the Riga Electrical Manufacturing Plant cover the same distance in 4 hours 30 minutes.
Quote:

In November 2006, Vladimir Yakunin the president of Russian Railways, and Henri Kuitunen, Chairman of the VR Group, signed an equity contract regarding the Joint-Stock Company Oy Karelian Trains Ltd.The signing ceremony took place in Helsinki in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Finnish President Tarja Halonen.

In June 2007, the results were announced of an international tender to purchase motorised train units for high-speed rail services between St. Petersburg and Helsinki. The tender was won by the French corporation ALSTOM.

On 30 November 2007, senior executives from Russian Railways and ALSTOM attended the ceremony in Savigliano, Italy to mark the beginning of production of the first Pendolino high-speed electric passenger train intended for service between St. Petersburg and Helsinki.

To implement high-speed passenger services, Russian Railways will purchase and launch dual-system electric trains capable of a maximum speed of 220 kmph and with powered coach tilting. These trains will be in line with modern European requirements of comfort and security.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 10:40 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma-Hamster View Post
Russia Railroads already payed Siemens 600mln euro for 8 trains, and Siemens started building trains back in July 2007
http://transportation.siemens.com/ts...20_07_2007.htm
It is very well known that Siemens are really making the trains, but maps don't show trains, they show routes. I'm am certain that Russia is building high speed lines, I want to know where and when and what type and how. (please!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
That was my point, yes And that's why I like your map - it isn't about some forumer saying "we have fast trains!!!!!" it's about good references, it's about stuff that can be proven.
Many thanks. This thread has become quite a good source in of itself. Besides, to quote post #1 of this very thread;

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
I've seen a few attempts in newspapers or online at mapping the expanding network of HSR in Europe, but they are always shot down as being inaccurate. What I want to know is, can we do any better? I'm sure that we can come up with a comprehensive list of lines, then someone would have to map them accurately.

Ideally I'd like to see lines in three divisions:
- 300km/h+
- 200km/h+
- less than 200km/h

(if only to make the UK look a bit better )

So how about it?

Last edited by elfabyanos; March 4th, 2008 at 10:57 PM.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Gamma-Hamster View Post
And where in Europe do we have a line where trains travel at 250kmh average speed?
Have you ever Been to France? No?!? Or maybe Germany!?!? You know, there is a really worrying fact that Russia ISN'T the only country in the Europe. Here is one for you, look to the other side, let's say Indian railways. In comparsion with Russia, Indian state railways are the U.S.S. Enterprise challenged by a donkey driven rikshah.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 11:00 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Stormwatch153 View Post
Have you ever Been to France? No?!? Or maybe Germany!?!? .
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/09/7742/new_lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html

Quote:
The fastest trains in each country - from Railway Gazette's World Speed Survey 2007
Germany - 233.5km/h

But, yes, France have trains with more than 250kmh average speed, now take the cookie ang go home.
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Old March 4th, 2008, 11:12 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
It is very well known that Siemens are really making the trains, but maps don't show trains, they show routes. I'm am certain that Russia is building high speed lines, I want to know where and when and what type and how. (please!!)

Where: Betwen Moscow and St. Petersburg, an upgrade of October Railway
When: right now, supposed to be finished in december 2008.
What type: upgraded classic line with average speed of 170km/h and 250km/h maximum speed. As already said, if you want a detailed map of the line, unfortunately, RZD most likely won't share it with us, but i will check russian railroad forums. I
only know that stretch from point 162 to point 181 is tha stretch where in august Nevsky Express crashed (terrorist attack, no fatalities) while running at 191km/h

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Old March 4th, 2008, 11:35 PM   #295
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It's hard but the information has got to be somewhere. I can't just draw a 350 mile long dotted line. I appreciate your help though, if you do find anything that'll be great. Likewise if you can find anything about neighbouring countries too.
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Old March 5th, 2008, 12:04 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormwatch153 View Post
Have you ever Been to France? No?!? Or maybe Germany!?!? You know, there is a really worrying fact that Russia ISN'T the only country in the Europe. Here is one for you, look to the other side, let's say Indian railways. In comparsion with Russia, Indian state railways are the U.S.S. Enterprise challenged by a donkey driven rikshah.
Have you ever been to the UK Portugal Italy Spain or even some Eastern European (Russia Included) rail networks ???

India is one of the "paradises" of rail fans everywhere ... but don't compare its main lines to Moscow-S.Petersbourg ...

(doublepost)
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Old March 5th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #297
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doublepost (reboot and autostart suck)

Over here we "downgrade" our own network speed because we have to acomodate fast passenger trains at 220 km/h in the same SINGLE LINE as 2000 ton coal trains ... but the NEW lines are buit to a standard of 250 km/h ... and this is to follow EU/UIC directives wich make it MANDATORY.

For the past 13 years EVERY main line renewed has been renewed with the use of pendulating trains in mind and every stretch of new line has been made with HSL standards in mind.

Needless to say that CP4000 pendular trains are "capable" of reaching 250 km/h if its decided to do so in the future.

But it has already been proved/decided that mixing freight with high speed passengers is a bad move in high intensity corridors.

Northern Line = some 40 High speed/Intercity trains each way per day (Intercity has 200km/h rolling stock) plus lots of regional , suburban and freight traffic ... its on the verge of colapsing so instead of full quadruplication its going to be a dedicated HSL and only somoe stretches of the old line will be quadrupled < thus making the "corridor" lisbon-porto an average of 4 to 8 lines all (theres another line near the coast and up out of lisbon and a narrow gauge south out of espinho)

South line still has room for expansion (until the direct line to spain opens that is) and the single line can cope with the relatively low traffic (2 HST + 4 InterCity + 2 regional + dozens of freight trains each way per day)
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Last edited by sotavento; March 5th, 2008 at 01:14 AM.
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Old March 5th, 2008, 12:50 AM   #298
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http://zdrus.narod.ru/news/0017.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
It's hard but the information has got to be somewhere. I can't just draw a 350 mile long dotted line. I appreciate your help though, if you do find anything that'll be great. Likewise if you can find anything about neighbouring countries too.
I've found the exact location of a segment where 250kmh speed will be achieved. The small green segment on the map is where train will be tested upon arrival.
The artical i found says that if RZD will be satisfied with the results than more segments will be upgraded(large green segment on the map will already be partially prepared for 250km/h) to 250km/h. Otherwise, line will be upraded to only 230km/h

Blue segments will be upgraded to 200km/h till 2009.

Now, the problem is - the map only shows upgraded segments, not existing ones.
And another article i found (dated year 2000)states , that in order to achieve 4:30 time (and we know it was eventually achieved) a total of 500km of rail should allow movement with 200km/h speed.

I can only assume that 250km/h green segment on the map is 200km/h as of now.

Last edited by Gamma-Hamster; March 5th, 2008 at 01:02 AM.
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Old March 5th, 2008, 01:25 AM   #299
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Thank you Gamma-Hamster.

That was realy usefull information
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Old March 5th, 2008, 01:34 AM   #300
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You just get me interested in this discussion.

Been doing some quick calculations here.

Northern Line ... a 335(?)km line between Santa Apolonia station in Lisboa and Campanhã station in Porto

Top to top (335km) best average speed (timetabled) is 116km/h with 4 intermediate stops run by Direct Alfa Pendular Services(7 per day each day).

Remove the two top stations and que get Oriente Station in lisboa (5km north) and Gaia station (Gaia is just 3km south of Campanha in the other side of the Douro river) ... best average speed is 130km/h with 2 intermediate stops run by direct Alfa Pendular services(9 per day each way*).

*) 2 per way are direct to algarve and dont go to Santa Apolonia.

Interestingly enough the BEST timetable time I could find in northern line was an INTERCITY stile service run by pendular stock ... Entroncamento-Pombal wich averages 145,5 km/h between comercial stops ... that train makes 8 /eight) intermediate stops and still manages to achieve some good timings.

folowed by Coimbra-Aveiro timed at 137,5 km/h ... the complete 265km trip from Lisboa(Oriente)-Aveiro averages at 132,5km/h calling only at Coimbra station.

Direct Alfa Pendular call only at Oriente , Coimbra , Aveiro and gaia between Santa Apolonia(or the 2 comming from algarve) and Campanhã (where some others continue north to Braga) ... average between stations can surely be timed higher than that ... but since there's no comercial stop we can never guess.

Not quite "NOT high speed" trains aren't they ???

Alfa Pendular trains are known for "sitting" there at stations (sometimes over 5 minutes) just waiting for their departing times to come (they definitely could take some journey time from current timetables).
Another problem is than not a single station to station zone includes purely renovated stretches ... its all "dotted" over here (as elfabyanos said) ... some black holes will disapear soon and we can see + fast timings in the near future.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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