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Old March 14th, 2008, 12:26 PM   #321
Falcon83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post

Italy: I agree with your map with one minor nit:-
~ I would classify Bologna to Verona as the upgrade of an existing line (blue)
Also note:
~ Padua to Venice has been upgraded to 220 km/h (blue)
~ Milan to Brescia has been quadrupled but no speed increase is documented and I can find any proposal for it to become 300 km/h
Totally wrong.
The Bologna-Verona is a brand new high capacity +200 km/h line.
Padua Venice too is brand new, it's the first part of the Turin-Trieste corridor.
Milan-Brescia is still far from being completed.
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Old March 14th, 2008, 12:38 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Belgium: I agree with your map with one minor nit:-
~ the dash line in red should supersede the grey line all the way into Antwerpen.
http://www.b-rail.be/corp/E/projects...orth/index.php

Netherlands: The HSL-zuid is not routed through Den Hague
http://www.railcargo.nl/documenten/posterrailcargo.pdf
~ Actually the line is two parts: Antewerpen to Rotterdam and Rotterdam to Schipol with a grey connector through Rotterdam
I'm sure the place on the HSL map is meant to be Rotterdam, not the Hague. Rotterdam is located abit more to the southeast as is currently displayed on the map however. The exact route is shown here:

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Old March 14th, 2008, 01:30 PM   #323
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Quote:
~ I would classify Bologna to Verona as the upgrade of an existing line (blue)
A consistent part of this line is a completely new infrastructure.

Quote:
~ Milan to Brescia has been quadrupled but no speed increase is documented and I can find any proposal for it to become 300 km/h
Only Milano-Treviglio, about 30 km. A new line Milan-Venice is proposed, but no details are known. Milan-Treviglio and Padua-Venice (30 km each) are part of this line.

All of these lines are electrified in 3 kV DC and for mixed traffic.
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Old March 14th, 2008, 01:47 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
Actually, the LGV SE from Saint-Exupery (new name for Satolas) to Valence is limited to 300km/h according to Florent Brisou.

For the other lines, not sure that Orleans-Tours and Orleans-Limoges are 220km/h... isn't it only 200km/h ?
Florent Brisou states that the maximum speed is 300 km/h and I agree. However some sections of this line sections of this line were built with curvature which creates speed restriction below the this maximum.

With regard to to the lines south of Orleans, the publically available RFF data is inconclusive as 200 km/h and 220 km/p is not differentiated. During the period when a tilting TGV line to Limoge was abandonned, there was some investment in these lines which prepared then for 220 km/h running by TGV's only but they have only been sporadicaaly used by TGVs'
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Old March 14th, 2008, 02:09 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
I'm sure the place on the HSL map is meant to be Rotterdam, not the Hague. Rotterdam is located abit more to the southeast as is currently displayed on the map however.
I agree that it could be Rotterdam which but it needs to move southeast.
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Old March 14th, 2008, 02:29 PM   #326
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With regard to Italy, we may be disagreeing about defintions. The following lines are in question:

Pioltello - Melzo - Treviglio was quadrupled in 2001 but no speed increases were announced
Bologna - Verona is still in progress as all the sections have not yet been completed
Padova - Venezia Mestre was quadrupled in 2007 and a speed increase to 220 km/h was annouced but only a short section used a new alignment.
Undine - Tarvisio was significantly upgraded in 2000 with most of the new route operatin at 200 km/h but with sections in tunnels and high curvature operating at less.

The issue is what constitutes a new line in contrast to upgrading an existing line. I am conservative if the new route uses the mostly the track bed (more than 50%) of the old route which not longer exisits as an entity, I call it an upgrade. Under this rule only the the Undine - Tarvisio is probably qualifies but even it is questionable.
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Old March 14th, 2008, 03:46 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thank you for this!!! You may be able to tell but Germany is broadly based on the ICE network map from wikipedia. I take it on your edit of the map above you have conformed to the colour key? More 300+km/h lines great. I need to verify of course, if you have any links that will be helpful but I'm sure I can find some evidence if as you say it's u/c. When did construction start?
Construction started in mid 1990s. It was halted a few years later just to restart again in recent years. The project has rather low priority, so funds are stretched over two decades. But with so many tunnels and bridges under construction now the government will push to finish this line finally.
You find some information on wikipedia [1] [2].
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Old March 14th, 2008, 04:11 PM   #328
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Found more lines that should be added to the map:

- Gardermobanen in Norway. According to the article on wikipedia, trains run up to 210km/h on this 60km track from Oslo's airport to Oslo. Apperantly, this line will be extended to Drammen in 2008, but this new section will not be high-speed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Norway

- Croatia is working on a rail line that connects Zagreb and Rijeka. 'To begin with, the existing line from Botovo via Zagreb to Karlovac will be brought up to date, and a completely new railway line will be constructed from Karlovac to Rijeka. In the future passenger trains will be able to travel at speeds of up to 200 km/h on the new line.' http://www.wieninternational.at/en/node/3426
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Old March 15th, 2008, 04:33 AM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
elfabyanos
Once again thank you, Elfabyanos, for your patient efforts to create a Euro HSL map. While I have a few concerns about the categories which you have chosen to use those are not important now. I have been combing through your maps for some time and I would like to offer the following comments (sorted by country):

Portugal: I agree with your last posted map version#15 (#262)
I am vehemently opposed to “sotavento’s” map of Portugal.
~ Maybe it will happen, but the most likely next event will be another re-plan and new priorities.

Spain: I applaud your attempts to sort out the rapidly moving developments in Spain and I will comment later

Denmark: the maximum speed is 180 km/h
~ this speed applies only to the Kobenhavn – Odense – Arhus line
~ I would suggest adding the lines to Rodby and Padborg for connectivity

Sweden: to be added
So as per your own mightiness sole autority we get:

International lines are MISSLABELED and missplaced and STOP at the border Spain/Portugal.

The entire network in portugal is MISPLACED and HALF the current +200km/h lines are subtracted from it ... (even the blue stretches are wrongly placed)

The 100% NEW Porto-Vigo line is NEGATED in portugal and in Spain is turned into an "upgraded" (rose) line.

Alfa Pendular (internationaly considered an HS service) routes are not on the map.






GREY = Alfa Pendular HighSpeed Services
(notice that only services run with 250km/h Pendulinos are shown ... supressed the 200km/h loco hauled IC services)

Orange = Porto-vigo will be NEW 250km/h mixed traffic line ... suposedly in vigo it will even carry METRO traffic ...
Porto-Braga will use the current line (it's at 200/220 km/h standards)
Trofa variant has been anounced (as in works published in DR "oficial state anouncement journal) so they will start soon.

BLUE =
"North line" = Lisboa-Porto 2/3 at 200/220 km/h standards ...
- works currently north of lisbon and Espinho ...
- the remaining south grey area will be upgraded to HS standards.
- the upgrades of the central and north sections were postponed and will instead be a part of the new HSL

"South Line" = Lisboa-Algarve ... 1/2 at 200/220km/h
- work currently near Alcacer do Sal ... 250km/h 2 track viaduct under construction (I will be posting pics soon)
- the 1/2 south part of the line will either be upgraded to 200 km/h or they will upgrade/built a 50% new line from evora to Beja and Faro

"Evora Line" (little grey spur in middle of lisboa-madrid line) = it's suposed to be a part of direct sines-badajoz line ... was renewed in 2006 with double-gauge sleepers in a completely rebuilt alignement ... suposed to be 2 track 250km/h but currently only 1 track and not electrified (electrification on the area expected/planed to be anounced late this year).

RED
Lisboa-Porto = only the middle section is past studies phase ... but don't confuse "in progress" with indecisions ... it WILL be constructed and operational in the next 4/5 years.

Lisboa-Madrid = work will start before this year ends (actualy they are speaking of starting before the summer) ... and by 2010 they WILL be finished.

Everytime we and the spanish decide on something we deliver it on time.

And by the way .. I am strongly oposed to your biased views of what is High Speed or not ... specialy to your blantant duality of criteria when you confront small-everithing-near countries to vast everithing-miles-aways countries.

but please direvt your anger at these folks instead of miself:

RAVE wich insists on confronting you and project new HSL in portugal
http://www.rave.pt/homepage.asp

REFER wich insists on confronting you and built new HSL in portugal
http://www.refer.pt/

CP wich insists on confronting you and run HS trains in portugal
http://www.cp.pt/

MOPTC wich insists on having a state policy of modernizing our rail infraestructure to high speed standards
http://www.moptc.gov.pt/

Lukilly we are not talking about deep harbours (we have 7 or 8 major), airports (we have a dozen and are finishing some more) or even highways (some 3000km built and more 500km in construction) ... or we would be even more strongly "oposed" by your mightiness.

Continue to negate REALITY all you want ... we can live well with it.
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Last edited by sotavento; March 15th, 2008 at 04:42 AM.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 01:34 PM   #330
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According to CP, it takes 2h44m from Lisbon to Porto with the fastest train for a distance of around 300km, how fast is that? 110km/h on average?
In rave webpage you can find this map of high-speed network in Portugal

but according to the same webpage I understand that everything is just being studied, not being built.

It would be great if you could give a specific link to an institutional webpage showing these things you mention are already under construction.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 02:21 PM   #331
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Sotavento - You are missing the point of this map. It's not about putting stuff on there for whoever shouts loud enough.

I actually want to know what's happening in the Portuguese network. I know upgrades have occurred and that new build lines are imminent. But I haven't got a clue was happening and shouting out what you know and making your own maps does not satisfy me, sorry. Placing links to various website homepages that are in Portuguese and require me search for relevent info, if there is any, in a foreign language does nothing to help either.

Please post some maps that weren't drawn by yourself, or some government/contractor supporting documents and then explain the meaning of them. Please do not feel that I am deliberately berating Portugal - I am only doing one thing - drawing an EVIDENCE based map.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 02:59 PM   #332
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What does "New build lines" mean? A classic line can be near completely redrawn and thus reach the same standard as a new one. E.g. when a single track line is upgraded to double track, and when there is no need for both an old line and a parallel new high standard double track.

This is what I mean:

1, single track - low standard
2, upgrade with continuous high standard double track
3, left over single tracks teared up

orange: old single track line, black: new double track upgrade:

image hosted on flickr
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Old March 15th, 2008, 04:33 PM   #333
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Quote:
RED
Lisboa-Porto = only the middle section is past studies phase ... but don't confuse "in progress" with indecisions ... it WILL be constructed and operational in the next 4/5 years.

Lisboa-Madrid = work will start before this year ends (actualy they are speaking of starting before the summer) ... and by 2010 they WILL be finished.
Since these lines aren't under construction yet, they shouldn't be included on the map.

Quote:
And by the way .. I am strongly oposed to your biased views of what is High Speed or not ... specialy to your blantant duality of criteria when you confront small-everithing-near countries to vast everithing-miles-aways countries.
What are you talking about??? We're trying to make a map here that is correct and complete, and not based on rumours. Incoherent replies like yours won't help to create such a map. If you would actually give some sources for your suggestions, it would help I guess. And I don't understand half the things you're typing in your posts...

If you don't want to give input for this map, fine, but stop accusing people please.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 05:29 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euklidisk View Post
What does "New build lines" mean?
This is a difficult distinction and at the moment I'm kind of working on a case by case basis.

If the track has been replaced with better track, and the signalling replaced with better signalling, and maybe track lowered under bridges and tunnels, to fit either bigger trains and/or electrification, I would class this as an upgrade. Even if there are major alterations to structures, and some occasional realignment, perhaps new bridges as well to replace level crossings or bridges that cause alignment constraint, I would still class this as an upgrade.

If new tracks are going down that aren't replacing what's already there (i.e. doubling) then I think it depends on the pre-existing trackbed, as in re-doubling track that used be double track before leaner times on the railways, then that's still an upgrade to me.

If new tracks are going down that require major alterations to existing structures, such as on the Trent valley four tracking scheme, then this is where it gets border line for me. Most of this I would just class as an upgrade, but in the end I think there will be parts of the trent valley line that should class as a new build as there were never 4 tracks on some sections before the upgrade. Unfortunately it seems that the new tracks will actually be used for slow trains and the existing ones upgraded for 200km/h, so mostly the trent valley is an upgrade.

If new tracks are being built alongside and existing trackbed, such as in some parts of Spain and Germany, then I class this as a new build.

Re Bologna and Verona, I see this as a new line, because FS have basically ripped everything up and started again, no incremental improvement but a total step change. I think this is where the definition gets difficult.

To cut a long story short we're going to have to reach some kind of consensus on it.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 06:00 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
This is a difficult distinction and at the moment I'm kind of working on a case by case basis.

If the track has been replaced with better track, and the signalling replaced with better signalling, and maybe track lowered under bridges and tunnels, to fit either bigger trains and/or electrification, I would class this as an upgrade. Even if there are major alterations to structures, and some occasional realignment, perhaps new bridges as well to replace level crossings or bridges that cause alignment constraint, I would still class this as an upgrade.

If new tracks are going down that aren't replacing what's already there (i.e. doubling) then I think it depends on the pre-existing trackbed, as in re-doubling track that used be double track before leaner times on the railways, then that's still an upgrade to me.

If new tracks are going down that require major alterations to existing structures, such as on the Trent valley four tracking scheme, then this is where it gets border line for me. Most of this I would just class as an upgrade, but in the end I think there will be parts of the trent valley line that should class as a new build as there were never 4 tracks on some sections before the upgrade. Unfortunately it seems that the new tracks will actually be used for slow trains and the existing ones upgraded for 200km/h, so mostly the trent valley is an upgrade.

If new tracks are being built alongside and existing trackbed, such as in some parts of Spain and Germany, then I class this as a new build.

Re Bologna and Verona, I see this as a new line, because FS have basically ripped everything up and started again, no incremental improvement but a total step change. I think this is where the definition gets difficult.

To cut a long story short we're going to have to reach some kind of consensus on it.

I would also include in the criteria for an upgrade rather than a new line the operational status of the line during the period of construction.

If all service is abandonned during the construction this would be evidience of a new line.
However if service continues during construction along the same basic alignment that would constitute an upgrade.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 06:53 PM   #336
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Here is my summary of the history of the double tracking of the Bologna to Verona line:
Began in 1986 but curtailed in 1993-97 investment plan with a little progress by 1999. By 2007 completed 74 of 114 km (65%)
- completed Bologna <13> Tavernelle Emillia by 2000
- completed Tavernelle Emillia <8> San Giovanni by 2002
- completed San Giovanni <8> Crevalcore in 2006
- completed Crevalcore <14> San Felice sul Panaro in 2007
- expect to complete San Felice <17> Poggio Rusco by June 2008?
- expect to complete Poggio Rusco <7?> Ostiglia by Dec 2008?
~~~~ the Po bridge was recontracted in 2005 for completion in 2008
- expect to complete Ostiglia<16>Nogara by Dec 2008?
- completed Nogara <10> Isola della Scala in 2002
- completed Isola della Scala <21> Verona in September 2001

This upgrade is not yet complete but the line has remained in service during the entire 20+ years period of the upgrades. The procedure for rebuilding this line is: first build a second track beside the original and then replace the original. This process is an upgrade in my lexicon.

This information is compilation many reports reviewed in many sources. After a brief review I believe that the primary sources were news reports in two magasines:
Today's Railways Europe
The International Railway Gazette
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Old March 15th, 2008, 07:17 PM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirtaheri View Post
I would class the Republic of Turkey as a part of Europe thus qualifies for this!
why? most of it is in Asia, including it's capital!

It would be like saying that Indonesia is an Australasian/Oceanian country due to everything east of Bali and Kalimantan (taking the Wallace line - there are other ones) being geographically not in Asia - most of the population is west of it (ie, in Asia) as is most of the land (though Indonesia has a lower proportion of Asian land than Turkey).

This HSL isn't European at all. Maybe if areas it goes through end up on the map's rectangle, then it should go on. However if not then the map shouldn't be expanded to show it.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 07:35 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Here is my summary of the history of the double tracking of the Bologna to Verona line:
Began in 1986 but curtailed in 1993-97 investment plan with a little progress by 1999. By 2007 completed 74 of 114 km (65%)
- completed Bologna <13> Tavernelle Emillia by 2000
- completed Tavernelle Emillia <8> San Giovanni by 2002
- completed San Giovanni <8> Crevalcore in 2006
- completed Crevalcore <14> San Felice sul Panaro in 2007
- expect to complete San Felice <17> Poggio Rusco by June 2008?
- expect to complete Poggio Rusco <7?> Ostiglia by Dec 2008?
~~~~ the Po bridge was recontracted in 2005 for completion in 2008
- expect to complete Ostiglia<16>Nogara by Dec 2008?
- completed Nogara <10> Isola della Scala in 2002
- completed Isola della Scala <21> Verona in September 2001

This upgrade is not yet complete but the line has remained in service during the entire 20+ years period of the upgrades. The procedure for rebuilding this line is: first build a second track beside the original and then replace the original. This process is an upgrade in my lexicon.

This information is compilation many reports reviewed in many sources. After a brief review I believe that the primary sources were news reports in two magasines:
Today's Railways Europe
The International Railway Gazette
Well if you consider that the old railway was built by Emperor Franz Joseph, the 20 years old railway and not completed yet (main problems were on the new Po bridge, and it was built 2 years ago) can be considered as new basically. It will have the ertms and other stuff too. It is not an upgrade, it's a new railway, the old Austrian binary will be removed.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 07:40 PM   #339
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an update for Italy:
~ A new HSL from Naples to Nocera Superiore just before the tunnel to Salerno has been opened in 2008 and I have verified that the speed for this new line is 250 km/h (e-Mail from the Italian contributor to Today’s Railway Europe). It connectes Naples to the S.Lucia tunnel.
~ Construction of the diversion Nocera Inferiore-Salerno took place 1965 -1977 and avoided the steepest 9 km Cava dei Tirreni-Nocera Inferiore section (up to 25 ‰). The new S.Lucia tunnel, 10.3 km long, has max incline of 8 ‰, and allows speed of 150 km/h and it reduces the distance between Salerno and Nocera Inferiore of 2.4 km.
~ the same source has no idea when, if ever, the new Salerno-Battipaglia line will be built

In my opinion the S.Lucia tunnel is unlikely to be replaced any time soon by a faster line so I would include it as a grey line
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Old March 15th, 2008, 07:42 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
I would also include in the criteria for an upgrade rather than a new line the operational status of the line during the period of construction.

If all service is abandonned during the construction this would be evidience of a new line.
However if service continues during construction along the same basic alignment that would constitute an upgrade.
That's a good criteria, possibly it's the most relevent. Regardless of what's being engineered, doing things in small parts to allow the line to be in use is going to reduce the maximum amount of work that can be achieved at any one moment, effectively limiting the possibilities of the upgrade. It's possibly the reason why we've made the distinction.

I agree re Bologna-Verona, I wasn't aware of it's construction history.
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