daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 15th, 2008, 08:41 PM   #341
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
So as per your own mightiness sole autority we get:

International lines are MISSLABELED and missplaced and STOP at the border Spain/Portugal.

The entire network in portugal is MISPLACED and HALF the current +200km/h lines are subtracted from it ... (even the blue stretches are wrongly placed)

The 100% NEW Porto-Vigo line is NEGATED in portugal and in Spain is turned into an "upgraded" (rose) line.

Alfa Pendular (internationaly considered an HS service) routes are not on the map.
sotavento

I am aware that you are realy angry at me and I am guilty, as many SCC posters are of not reading carefully. At the same time, your anger covers up your really important points.

You are absolutely correct; elfabyanos does need to recognise on his maps that the "alfa pendular" service in Portugal now extends to Braga in the north and to Faro in the south.

I make no claim to be the "mightiness or sole autority". I do, however, claim to have ridden the first Japenes Shinkansen in 1970's and ever since I have been tracking the development of high speed railways not just in europe but arround the world for over 30 years by now. At first this was very difficult because we did not have the information sources which now exsist on the Internet. However I do, and have have for many years, read five monthly magasines which publish the press releases from all the major railroads and I have e-Mail notification of updated news reports.

I have learned to review press announcement with a jaundiced eye. As a result I tend to only believe that a new projects might actually happen when construction actually begins and not before.

You have implied that I downplay the accomplishments of smaller countries at the expense of a few larger countires. That is absolutely true! Many smaller countries make wonderfull pronouncements in the press but never follow through. Amoung the culprits: Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Slovakia, The Czech Republic (my wifes birth place), Poland, the Netherlands and Portugal.

For Portugal specifically:
1992 construction started on a 220 km/h line Lisbon - Porto
1999 National Laboratory of Civil Engineering studied track stability at high speed and concluded that speeds of 220 km/h may never be achieved.
1999 the goernment abandonedd the 220 km/h after leass than 60 km have been completed
2004 electrification was completed to support the European Cup football tournament
2006 Linha do Norte modernization funded for upgrade to 160 km/h for completion in 2008
2009 planned opening of the Ota International Airport but replaned in in 2008 for Barreira which requires a major investment in a new bridge ove the Tagus river.

I followed the Euro 2004 investment with great interest as it was the impetus for substantial investment in the Portugese network and like most similar events did just enough to survive. None of the reports which I read in the "english language press" ever discussed speed increases before Euro 2004. Since then there has been a change of government and a new set of priorities.

With regard to your map, I have the following comments:
1) I agree that the "Alfa Pendular service" extends to Brage and Faro
2) I believe that you over state the percentage of the Porto to Lisbon line which is permitted operate at 220 km/h.
3) I cannot find any evidence in the "English language" press which confirms that the trains are operating at more than 160 km/h south of Lisboa
4) I agree that there are proposals for construction of new lines north of Lisboa and on the Lisboa to Badajoz routes but I have no evidence that contracts have been finalized let alone work started. In fact I have more notes about freight from Sines to Badajoz than the HSL to Spain
5) I agree that there is a proposal for a connector to Vigo but I am cannot confirm any of the details like speed or schedule.

Once again I am sorry to make you angry but you need to study the Portugese documents about these proposals and give us English translations of the specific documents, or at least "hyperlinks" to the specific pages so that we can find the data which you are proclaiming to exist.

Please help us with specifics
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details

Last edited by Trainman Dave; March 15th, 2008 at 09:14 PM.
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 15th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #342
RawLee
Registered User
 
RawLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budapest
Posts: 9,447
Likes (Received): 1083

A question: the thread is about tracks that are capable of handling high speeds,or where trains travel with high speed?
RawLee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 15th, 2008, 09:03 PM   #343
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
A question: the thread is about tracks that are capable of handling high speeds,or where trains travel with high speed?
Both
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 15th, 2008, 10:33 PM   #344
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

France: additional inputs:
~ TGV trains run all the way to LeHarve
~ TGV Trains run from Arras to Valenciennes

Switzerland a concern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6...rg_Base_Tunnel
Quote:
Travel speeds
Regular freight trains: 100 km/h (~60 mph)
Qualified freight trains: 160 km/h (~100 mph)
Passenger trains: 200 km/h (~120 mph)
Tilting passenger trains: 250 km/h (~160 mph)
This is speed increase of 50 km/h or 20% for tilting trains. Is this accetpable ELf?
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details

Last edited by Trainman Dave; March 15th, 2008 at 10:56 PM.
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 01:51 AM   #345
E2rdEm
prostownik
 
E2rdEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wawa, Puławy
Posts: 3,117
Likes (Received): 1201

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
A question: the thread is about tracks that are capable of handling high speeds,or where trains travel with high speed?
Both
You have to be more specific. Because there is a problem with Poland.
Here's a map to illustrate (I've taken a map from Wikipedia article about CMK line (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMK) and added blue elements):


I wrote it before in this thread, but now I'll explain using the above map.

The red line is the CMK. This is a line built in 1971-77. So it would not qualify as a newly built after 1978... But passenger revenue service started on this line in 1980.
The routing of this line was made to 250 km/h standards. Currently the whole line (start-to-end) is operated at 160 km/h, however the official list of max. speeds on polish tracks (can be found here, and this is line no.4) states that a part is allowed for 200 km/h operation for conventional (non-tiliting) trains. That is a part I've marked with solid blue on the map.

I don't know if you want to qualify this line as newly-built or an upgrade. But, since there's no revenue service on the line with speeds greater than 160 km/h (and I don't think there will be any 200 km/h operation in a couple of years), then I suppose you won't bother to draw it - neither in yellow, nor in blue.

--------------------
The three blue dots i've placed on the map is a first part of upgrade of the line Warszawa-Gdańsk to 200 km/h (but only for titlting trains, the speed limit for loco-hauled will be 160). The construction started last year on the short stretch between Warszawa and Legionowo (only 20 km). You can see some pics from this upgrade in the thread on polish subforum: some official pics on this page and some unofficial ones on page 15 to 20.

The tender for some construction works on other parts of this line is expected this year, but the construction works have not started yet. The whole 320-km line Warszawa-Gdańsk will be upgraded until 2015. Some 70% of the distance will be 200 km/h.

-------------------
To sum up: There are no HSTrains in Poland yet. We have something that would eventually qualify as HSL (or HSL possibility ). There are plans for true HSL, but at the moment it's only politicians-talk, so that's definitely out of the scope of this thread.
I just felt the need to explain the situation in Poland.
__________________
II etap obwodnicy Puław (S12) - projekt jest gotowy od 12/2008. Nowa DŚU wydana w 10/2009.
Nic, tylko budować! Znajdźcie pieniądze!

Last edited by E2rdEm; March 16th, 2008 at 02:01 AM.
E2rdEm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 03:44 AM   #346
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by E2rdEm View Post
You have to be more specific. Because there is a problem with Poland.

I wrote it before in this thread, but now I'll explain using the above map.

The red line is the CMK. This is a line built in 1971-77. So it would not qualify as a newly built after 1978... But passenger revenue service started on this line in 1980.
The routing of this line was made to 250 km/h standards. Currently the whole line (start-to-end) is operated at 160 km/h, however the official list of max. speeds on polish tracks (can be found here, and this is line no.4) states that a part is allowed for 200 km/h operation for conventional (non-tiliting) trains. That is a part I've marked with solid blue on the map.

I don't know if you want to qualify this line as newly-built or an upgrade. But, since there's no revenue service on the line with speeds greater than 160 km/h (and I don't think there will be any 200 km/h operation in a couple of years), then I suppose you won't bother to draw it - neither in yellow, nor in blue.

--------------------
The three blue dots i've placed on the map is a first part of upgrade of the line Warszawa-Gdańsk to 200 km/h (but only for titlting trains, the speed limit for loco-hauled will be 160). The construction started last year on the short stretch between Warszawa and Legionowo (only 20 km). You can see some pics from this upgrade in the thread on polish subforum: some official pics on this page and some unofficial ones on page 15 to 20.

The tender for some construction works on other parts of this line is expected this year, but the construction works have not started yet. The whole 320-km line Warszawa-Gdańsk will be upgraded until 2015. Some 70% of the distance will be 200 km/h.

-------------------
To sum up: There are no HSTrains in Poland yet. We have something that would eventually qualify as HSL (or HSL possibility ). There are plans for true HSL, but at the moment it's only politicians-talk, so that's definitely out of the scope of this thread.
I just felt the need to explain the situation in Poland.
Thank you for your input. I agree with you that the CMK in Poland is a real anomaly. I have been tracking it for many years waiting for regular service at 200 km/h. I traveled the triangle Wein - Warsaw - Prague in 1993 and timed both trains using the the kilometer posts on the CMK. I am fairly confident that I clock several sections at more than 180 km/h but my timing was very crude.

This demonstrates the problem that exisits with trying to draw the HSL map for Europe. There a significant number of lines all over Europe where the civil engineering is capabale of sustaining 200 km/h operations but neither the trains or the signaling are available to take advantage of the civil engineering.
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details

Last edited by Trainman Dave; March 16th, 2008 at 05:22 AM.
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 08:56 AM   #347
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
sotavento

I am aware that you are realy angry at me and I am guilty, as many SCC posters are of not reading carefully. At the same time, your anger covers up your really important points.

You are absolutely correct; elfabyanos does need to recognise on his maps that the "alfa pendular" service in Portugal now extends to Braga in the north and to Faro in the south.

I make no claim to be the "mightiness or sole autority". I do, however, claim to have ridden the first Japenes Shinkansen in 1970's and ever since I have been tracking the development of high speed railways not just in europe but arround the world for over 30 years by now. At first this was very difficult because we did not have the information sources which now exsist on the Internet. However I do, and have have for many years, read five monthly magasines which publish the press releases from all the major railroads and I have e-Mail notification of updated news reports.

I have learned to review press announcement with a jaundiced eye. As a result I tend to only believe that a new projects might actually happen when construction actually begins and not before.

You have implied that I downplay the accomplishments of smaller countries at the expense of a few larger countires. That is absolutely true! Many smaller countries make wonderfull pronouncements in the press but never follow through. Amoung the culprits: Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Slovakia, The Czech Republic (my wifes birth place), Poland, the Netherlands and Portugal.
Why shuld I be angry at you ??? We are simply having some "disagreements" as to what should we call "high speed" , "under construction" or even as to what is "upgraded track" or "new lines".

Press reviews ??? my previous posts were based on Public Law decrees ... government issued only (And dificult/meaningless to put in here since its all political giberish and no technical details whatsoever).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
For Portugal specifically:
1992 construction started on a 220 km/h line Lisbon - Porto
1999 National Laboratory of Civil Engineering studied track stability at high speed and concluded that speeds of 220 km/h may never be achieved.
1999 the goernment abandonedd the 220 km/h after leass than 60 km have been completed
2004 electrification was completed to support the European Cup football tournament
2006 Linha do Norte modernization funded for upgrade to 160 km/h for completion in 2008
2009 planned opening of the Ota International Airport but replaned in in 2008 for Barreira which requires a major investment in a new bridge ove the Tagus river.
1992 construction of what ??? in 1992 they merely started earth moving works for the reconstructed Azambuja comuter station (terminal of urban trains from Lisboa to the north) ... and indeed it was built with a layout to alow 4 tracks and 220 km/h trains runing through the station ... but the station was finished in 1995.

1999 studies resulted in 2/3 of the Northern line being DEMOLISHED and RECONSTRUCTED to allow high speed ... much of the "extra" €€€ws in fact spent in +1000m viaducts ... 4000m radii curves and a complete replacement of bridges/underpassages and supression of some 600(?) level crossings <<< northern line alone
Alfa Pendular trains in fact run in the modernized line at 227/228 km/h in a daily base (its as far as CONVEL tolerance permits) ... and using the full tilt of 8% alond most of it.

Where do you get that "the government abandoned the 220 km/h ???


2004 ... electrificaation of what ??? they continue to electrify the network untill today ... and it will continue.
Let me recall what was electified around the euro timeline: (from memory only)

Contumil-Cête-Caide (Douro Line) = track doubled , speed ugraded to 120 km/h and electrification ... Electrification to Regua was just "anounced" (as in the decree to begin works has been published in Diario da republica) <<< its not an HSL in any way
Contumil-Ermesinde-Lousado-Nine-Braga = track doubled , speed ugraded to 140/200 km/h and electrification ... there are actualy some parts where the OLD single line remains at 140 and at its side is a new 200 km/h line <<< it's a 140/200 km/h MAIN LINE soon to be fully upgraded to 220 km/h ... it is still being worked upon (new trofa variant)
Lousado-guimarães = was NARROW GAUGE and was converted to a windy and curvy 90km/h broad iberic gauge electrified <<< there are Intercity trains Guimarães-Lisboa wich are able to run at 200 km/h in northern line but in NO way I'm going to add this line to the HSL table.
Contumil-Campanha was completely remodeled ... now it sports 5 tracks plus one in tunel all electrified
Campanha-Gaia saw the construction of a new bridge over Douro river in 1992 (huge for that time ... small by todays standards)

This covers north of douro.

Pampilhosa-Guarda-VilarFormosos (direct line to Irun) was upgraded in 1995(?) ... it's a shame that they didn't expet to buy pendular trains ... its a 140/160 km/h line (full of curves and tunels) and if they had built it with enough space as to alow pendulation it would be possible to run at 200/220km/h overt there.
Entroncamento-C.Branco-Covilhã is still being upgraded and electrified ... not in any way HSL ...
Lisboa-entroncamento-Pombal-Pampilhosa-Aveiro-Porto (northern line) is a mixture of brand new trackbed and alignement at 220 km/h from entroncamento to Alfarelos and from Pampilhosa to Espinho (the 4 stations being outside the renewed areas) ... line in espinho is being upgraded ... actualy theres a tunel with station included under construction.
Lisboa area has seen some major upgrading of it's urban/comuter network wih includes 40km of 4 track from inner Lisboa all the way to Azambuja at 200/220 km/h ... being Alhandra-VFXira a 4km bottleneck (currently being upgraded but not to HS standards ... and the work from azambuja to entroncamento is being "downgraded" (they were upgrading to 220 but the decision to move to a new HSL has made them cut some corners here and there) << there is work in the ground here also

Then theres the 35km "cross Tejo" new line ... the project was extended to Setubal ... more than half is presently at speeds of 200 km/h.
The 300km "itenerario dos graneis" (freight itinerary) was electrified (it includes a part or totality of sines , south , alentejo , vendas nova , norte , beira baixa lines) and is operated by double traction of 5600 electric locomotives pulling +2000 ton coal trains wich run both ways several times a day.
And then theres the project to get the electrification all the way to Faro wich was an extension of the freight line and saw the line from Pinhal Novo all the way until funcheira (Torre Vã actualy) being upgraded to 250 km/h in a completely new alignement (the "new" line was built alongside the old one in the straight zone and where the old line was curvy a new direct variant was built) ... currently theres still work going on to complete this line.
^Of the 160km from lisboa to Funcheira theres 20km currently being upgraded near Alcacer ... the rest is up to standards with HSL at 250km/h.

Most of this happened from 1997 untill present day


You seem to lack a "credible"/"knowgeable" source of information of what has been going on over here.

I for myself need to search and try to find where I put the train orders for alfa pendular and intercity trains ... thats where the real "speed" is anounced properly.

Quote:
I followed the Euro 2004 investment with great interest as it was the impetus for substantial investment in the Portugese network and like most similar events did just enough to survive. None of the reports which I read in the "english language press" ever discussed speed increases before Euro 2004. Since then there has been a change of government and a new set of priorities.

With regard to your map, I have the following comments:
1) I agree that the "Alfa Pendular service" extends to Brage and Faro
2) I believe that you over state the percentage of the Porto to Lisbon line which is permitted operate at 220 km/h.
3) I cannot find any evidence in the "English language" press which confirms that the trains are operating at more than 160 km/h south of Lisboa
4) I agree that there are proposals for construction of new lines north of Lisboa and on the Lisboa to Badajoz routes but I have no evidence that contracts have been finalized let alone work started. In fact I have more notes about freight from Sines to Badajoz than the HSL to Spain
5) I agree that there is a proposal for a connector to Vigo but I am cannot confirm any of the details like speed or schedule.

Once again I am sorry to make you angry but you need to study the Portugese documents about these proposals and give us English translations of the specific documents, or at least "hyperlinks" to the specific pages so that we can find the data which you are proclaiming to exist.

Please help us with specifics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUnEN...eature=related

Alfa Pendular 186 (Afernoon southbound Porto-Faro) somewhere near Grandola (20:28 ... it leaves Pinhal Novo at 17:30 so it's down there)

For myself the maximum speed I recorded was 225km/h south of Alvalade:
(lowsy 1,3mp camera and lack of light)


Notice the speedometer needle if you can't read properly:


Wen't as far as 228 km/h in that run ... but bateries were empty and I just passed to video mode.


As a sidenotice:
The national speed record is currently in the hands of a diesel Spanish talgo (the ADIF one?) with somewhere near 260km/h ... Alfa Pendular has reached above 250 km/h on trials without limiters and a double traction of 5600 eurosprinter loco hauled 13 coach train reached near 240km/h .... even a "regional" CP 2240 is said to have reached abover 180km/h in south line.
^Need to find "oficial" confirmed sourced for these records.

The contracts for the HSL are being reviewed by the bidders ... half a dozen ACE have already came forward with proposals ... work should start soon ... things progress very fast in the HS business here ... too fast.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; March 16th, 2008 at 11:47 AM.
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 09:11 AM   #348
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
why? most of it is in Asia, including it's capital!

It would be like saying that Indonesia is an Australasian/Oceanian country due to everything east of Bali and Kalimantan (taking the Wallace line - there are other ones) being geographically not in Asia - most of the population is west of it (ie, in Asia) as is most of the land (though Indonesia has a lower proportion of Asian land than Turkey).

This HSL isn't European at all. Maybe if areas it goes through end up on the map's rectangle, then it should go on. However if not then the map shouldn't be expanded to show it.
That is bullocks ... Eurasia is a large land mass with lots of "spurs" and some smaller tectonic plates atached.

the anciant europe/asia definition refered to greece-turkey alone and china/india were not "asia"

the new defenition referes some "asia" major continent with various sub regions and a small isloated and independent spur called europe.

Just pick up any map ... Turkey is a small territory in balcans(?) and a large land mass in the middle east ... well .. .considering that the MAJOR infreaestructure of the ne Turkish HSL is precisely the tunel that joins both parts it should definetily be included here.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 10:07 AM   #349
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinivan View Post
According to CP, it takes 2h44m from Lisbon to Porto with the fastest train for a distance of around 300km, how fast is that? 110km/h on average?
In rave webpage you can find this map of high-speed network in Portugal

but according to the same webpage I understand that everything is just being studied, not being built.

It would be great if you could give a specific link to an institutional webpage showing these things you mention are already under construction.
there are 330km between Oriente and Gaia and they are run in 2h31 minutes with 2 intermediate stops at Aveiro and Coimbra ... loooong stops at it ... trains have much extra time in their shedules actualy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Sotavento - You are missing the point of this map. It's not about putting stuff on there for whoever shouts loud enough.

I actually want to know what's happening in the Portuguese network. I know upgrades have occurred and that new build lines are imminent. But I haven't got a clue was happening and shouting out what you know and making your own maps does not satisfy me, sorry. Placing links to various website homepages that are in Portuguese and require me search for relevent info, if there is any, in a foreign language does nothing to help either.

Please post some maps that weren't drawn by yourself, or some government/contractor supporting documents and then explain the meaning of them. Please do not feel that I am deliberately berating Portugal - I am only doing one thing - drawing an EVIDENCE based map.
I'm not "missing" the point ... I'm just havingas much dificulty to find the "data" as you are ... be it in portuguese or any other language ... that is the "real" problem.

But if to you guys the OFICIAL PAGE with the "environmental impact studies" and everithing else is of no good ... just might as well remove portugal , spain and everyone else thad doesn0t speak english as their mother tongue.

And by the way ... 1st fall of the axe on "northern line" upgrade program:

Santarem Variant just went into AIA ... it will be 26km long ... 160km/h to conventional trains ... 190km/h to pendular trains ... half of it will be in viaducts and tunels (Santarem station included) <<< originaly it was intended as a 200km/h (250kmh for pendular trains) but since the HSL wil not pass over there it ws downgraded.
source: http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=403

Vila Franca "bottleneck" will be permanent:
- Instead of correcting the route they will make a "riverside walk" ... at a cost of 6M €.
source: http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=357

In the south line the "only" information available (and rather sketchy to say the least):

Alcaçer variant:
30km (of wich more than half put out of work recently renovated tracks)
source:
http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=336
http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=386
it doesn't say but it's 250 km/h (w begin to wonder why Refer even has a webpage ... such a lousy excuse for a webpage indeed)

But nothing beats thir lowsy work at planing:

Trofa Variant: (NOT HSL in any way)
3,5km long ... 1400m long tunel and 300m long viaduct ... 120km/h for conventional and 140km/h for pendular trains (wtf?)
source: http://www.refer.pt/pt/noticia.php?id=396


But this seems readable:
http://translate.google.com/translat...=pt-PT&ie=UTF8

Too bad that only the Impress tables have the real speed limits on them ... refer page realy is in a complete mess.

The finished projects part of their site is half broken ... the english pages are full of "under construction".
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; March 16th, 2008 at 11:36 AM.
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 11:34 AM   #350
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
Since these lines aren't under construction yet, they shouldn't be included on the map.

What are you talking about??? We're trying to make a map here that is correct and complete, and not based on rumours. Incoherent replies like yours won't help to create such a map. If you would actually give some sources for your suggestions, it would help I guess. And I don't understand half the things you're typing in your posts...

If you don't want to give input for this map, fine, but stop accusing people please.
that refered to TrainmanDave implications only ... please don't take his defense as your duty.

It takes some 3 years for a line to begin actualy being worked upon on the field ... theres lots of proceedings and studies to be made ... in the 660km Lisboa-Madrid there are some 50km past that phase ... some 200 near it ... and the rest will follow the same path in the next few months.

Badajoz-Merida has contracts signed ... does that mean that in the event it will never actualy be constructed it is a doted line in that map ???

Looking at the big map ... what makes the entire mileage of the IC125 network automaticaly in the map ??? only in portugal and spain there are lots and lots of trains that run partialy at 200kmh and then follow some windy route that has speeds as low as 90km/h for its entire lenght.

I guess we should start to add those little remote routes where TGV pass ... even when they were hauled by diesel.


There should be MORE categories in the map.

- Actual "super" high speed routes >= 300km/h (read "more" than 300km/h)
- High speed routes >= 200 upgraded or >= 250 new
- fast routes >= 160km/h (not quite HSL but high speed services run over it) << grey ? or even included in the HSL sections if part of them ???

- a grey color would simply denote a long stretch that does not follow HSL standards but in wich HS trains run

- under construction ... go look in the spanish forum and learn with them ... these fall in the under construction part (except the 1st of course):
a) proposed (these can be neglected and left out)
b) studied but dependant (route path not aproved yet ... final path under EIA or public cunsultancy)
c) aproved (route final path decided ... contract put for tenders)
d) adjudicated (contract awarded)
e) under construction

About what is "upgraded" and what is NEW ...
1 - A line can be renovated and get to higher standards ... this is "upgraded"
2 - a nem alignement can be made and the old route abandoned ... this can be called "upgraded" if it follows near the old alignement or eve nhas some sections in comon ... or "new" if it diverges from it by a great distance
3 - if a new line is built alongside an existing section it can be called an "upgrade" (simply adding more lines to an existing route)
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; March 16th, 2008 at 02:19 PM.
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 02:54 PM   #351
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
I'm not "missing" the point ... I'm just havingas much dificulty to find the "data" as you are ... be it in portuguese or any other language ... that is the "real" problem.

But if to you guys the OFICIAL PAGE with the "environmental impact studies" and everithing else is of no good ... just might as well remove portugal , spain and everyone else thad doesn0t speak english as their mother tongue.
I'm not going to read your posts until you relax. I don't see what the problem is with the approach that has been taken. I am not treating Portugal any different to any other country. Sweden has been removed until anyone can provide clarification which will take time because there is a lot of info to go through earlier in the thread. The polish CMK was removed for the same reason.

The more you scream and shout and jump up and down the less anyone believes you know what you are talking about.

Last edited by elfabyanos; March 16th, 2008 at 03:01 PM.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 16th, 2008, 04:27 PM   #352
amirtaheri
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 302
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
why? most of it is in Asia, including it's capital!

It would be like saying that Indonesia is an Australasian/Oceanian country due to everything east of Bali and Kalimantan (taking the Wallace line - there are other ones) being geographically not in Asia - most of the population is west of it (ie, in Asia) as is most of the land (though Indonesia has a lower proportion of Asian land than Turkey).

This HSL isn't European at all. Maybe if areas it goes through end up on the map's rectangle, then it should go on. However if not then the map shouldn't be expanded to show it.
Geographically speaking obviously, but politically speaking, it is far more aligned with Europe than anywhere else. My opinion is that it is better to have Turkey within Europe being a part of Europe than it is to isolate it. Politically speaking, it has been a part of Europe for well over a hundred years as a result of the Ottoman Empire and since it's secularisation, been a greater part of it since, as it tried to realign itself. Europe is not and should not just be some exclusive club.
amirtaheri no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 01:03 AM   #353
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,548

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirtaheri View Post
Geographically speaking obviously, but politically speaking, it is far more aligned with Europe than anywhere else.
The main question is 'is this a political map, based on what people say, or is it a geographic map'. If it's a political map, then what are called High Speed Lines, regardless of speed, go on. We could end up with some 150km/h line in Eastern Europe counting that way. In England, we'd just have HS1, as the WCML, GWML, XCML and ECML are considered not fast enough, and HS1 is the first high speed line.

My view is that this is a geographic map, others may differ. This line in full will cause a massive space issue, and it's not really in Europe.
Quote:
Europe is not and should not just be some exclusive club.
Geographically it's a closed shop - there's some dispute of the border between the Black Sea and the Ural Mountains (and where the line is along there). Political Europe doesn't even cover geographic Europe (Switzerland, much of Eastern Europe, Iceland and Norway) - the EU is not Europe. Asian Cyprus and African Malta are on board - there's no geographic reason why Turkey can't join, though there are others (many of which it's working on, though many of which it's not - eg the Cyprus issue and allowing free speech about the events that may have or may have not occured in 1915).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
That is bullocks ... Eurasia is a large land mass with lots of "spurs" and some smaller tectonic plates atached.
and this is a European map, not a Eurasian map. Therefore this map is only for HSR in Europe, which 99% of this line isn't - half a tunnel is, and that's it. Because of history, Europe is counted as a separate continent, though you could also count it as a large sub-region of a Eurasia/Eurasia-Africa super continent and my point that this HSR isn't a European one, and therefore outside of the scope of this map, would still stand.
Quote:
the anciant europe/asia definition refered to greece-turkey alone and china/india were not "asia"
pointless to say surely? Especially as you are firmly saying that the area of Turkey in question is in Asia, which is my point exactly. It's also quite irrelevant, as we're talking about modern definitions of Europe, which might (if we're feeling generous) include some former soviet countries that are really in Asia (and Cyprus and Malta), but don't tend to include Asiatic Turkey.
Quote:
the new defenition referes some "asia" major continent with various sub regions and a small isloated and independent spur called europe.
indeed, and only part of Turkey is in that area called Europe.
Quote:
Just pick up any map ... Turkey is a small territory in balcans(?) and a large land mass in the middle east ... well .. .considering that the MAJOR infreaestructure of the ne Turkish HSL is precisely the tunel that joins both parts it should definetily be included here.
what's the line speed of the tunnel? While the tunnel would perhaps be included, I can't see any reason to expand the map further south and east (making it bigger, or the scale worse) to include HSR in the Middle East. An arrow saying the end of the line would suffice, if the line in question gets added.
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 01:15 AM   #354
rheintram
yeah, whatever
 
rheintram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,598
Likes (Received): 924

What should be included, at least as "under construction" is:

AUSTRIA:
Brenner Base Tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel
New Lower Inn Valley Railway: Completely new 40 km track for speeds of 250km/h http://www.beg.co.at/implementation/ and http://www.beg.co.at/informationszen...rassenverlauf/ (german)
rheintram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 05:11 AM   #355
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
I'm not going to read your posts until you relax. I don't see what the problem is with the approach that has been taken. I am not treating Portugal any different to any other country. Sweden has been removed until anyone can provide clarification which will take time because there is a lot of info to go through earlier in the thread. The polish CMK was removed for the same reason.

The more you scream and shout and jump up and down the less anyone believes you know what you are talking about.
Just for the record i wnat to point out that I'm not in any way stressed , screaming or annoyed or whatever.

I'm actualy quite amused to see the complete "lack" of trust in official data about half the peripheric regions when clearly more than half the lines on the central area of the map are passed as "certified" when they clearly are not.

And if you think that I will take any more of my time to give you the full "data" when you are clearly oposing any such contributions ... you are in for some nasty times triing to gather any coherent data on half of the european netowrk.

Since most of the people in this topic are officialy "against" any data published refering to portugal it will never be a "Decent European HSR map" period ... so your future rantings in this thread are of no credibility whatsoever ... at least to me or anybody else who has access to REAL data and not those who consider whatever the "xpto railway journal correspondent in nowhere.land" handles them.

Oficial STATE/RAILWAY published information vs. info from "rail enthusiasts" and "rail enthusiast journalist/correspondent" ... you clearly have settled your standards based on the latter as your main source on reliability.

Too bad ... it looked like this could actualy become a good map but you are missing the understanding of what are the real and reliable sources of information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The main question is 'is this a political map, based on what people say, or is it a geographic map'. If it's a political map, then what are called High Speed Lines, regardless of speed, go on. We could end up with some 150km/h line in Eastern Europe counting that way. In England, we'd just have HS1, as the WCML, GWML, XCML and ECML are considered not fast enough, and HS1 is the first high speed line.

... to include HSR in the Middle East. An arrow saying the end of the line would suffice, if the line in question gets added.
If it is inside the "scope" of the map (it is actualy in the middle of the rectangle) it could be included.

but what do I know ... its "their" map ... on "their" rules ... let's hope they at leat know what "europe" means and what are it's borders ...


At least that little we can (hopefully) expect to get figured out straight in this map of "theirs" ... "hopefully".
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 12:06 PM   #356
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Just for the record i wnat to point out that I'm not in any way stressed , screaming or annoyed or whatever.

I'm actualy quite amused to see the complete "lack" of trust in official data about half the peripheric regions when clearly more than half the lines on the central area of the map are passed as "certified" when they clearly are not.
Where? You'll find that I can point to real evidence for any of the lines that are on the map in central europe. If I can't, and it's on there in error, then I remove it. Isn't that reasonable? That's exactly what I've done so far and most people seem to accept this as reasonable.

Quote:
And if you think that I will take any more of my time to give you the full "data" when you are clearly oposing any such contributions ... you are in for some nasty times triing to gather any coherent data on half of the european netowrk.
YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN ME ANY EVIDENCE THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND! I DO NOT SPEAK PORTUGUESE!!!

Quote:
Since most of the people in this topic are officialy "against" any data published refering to portugal it will never be a "Decent European HSR map" period ... so your future rantings in this thread are of no credibility whatsoever ... at least to me or anybody else who has access to REAL data and not those who consider whatever the "xpto railway journal correspondent in nowhere.land" handles them.

Oficial STATE/RAILWAY published information vs. info from "rail enthusiasts" and "rail enthusiast journalist/correspondent" ... you clearly have settled your standards based on the latter as your main source on reliability.

Too bad ... it looked like this could actualy become a good map but you are missing the understanding of what are the real and reliable sources of information.
Stop whinging and provide the real data!!! It's quite simple. What is there for Portugal I did on the basis that I have no information about Portugal but know there is an upgraded line there. You have said it's not geographically correct but you haven't even given me a map of where that line should actually go (as in a real one, from an official source). I can't believe you are complaining about the inaccuracy of my data when you can't even provide a map of a route that's been there for a hundred years.

Last edited by elfabyanos; March 17th, 2008 at 12:21 PM.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 12:53 PM   #357
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Whos whinning here ??? Not me certainly!!!

Reread posts number:

275: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=275

Your scale is damn too small even for portugal

293: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=293

Quote:
1999 studies resulted in 2/3 of the Northern line being DEMOLISHED and RECONSTRUCTED to allow high speed ...
Quote:
The contracts for the HSL are being reviewed by the bidders ... half a dozen ACE have already came forward with proposals ... work should start soon

And about "the map" ... I forgot to add another thing ... it lacks resolution to be of any use ... its too small.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #358
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Public Tenders International under the RAVE

Public-Private Partnership for the granting of design, construction, financing, maintenance and provision of rail infrastructure of the section Poceirão - Caia

Network Rail for High Speed / Os Lisbon - Madrid

The implementation of a High-Speed Railway Network in Portugal is a commitment to economic development, territorial and social cohesion and modernization of the country, ensuring the establishment of links to the Trans-European Network, a central element of European policy for the revival of transport rail, associated with values of competitiveness, efficiency and sustainability.

In June 2007, the RAVE proposed and presented publicly the Model Business for implementation of the High Speed Railway Network in Portugal, based on the launch of a number of Public-Private Partnerships, with the aim of ensuring the implementation of the Network on the calendar established while ensuring its comportabilidade to the Portuguese Government, the minimization of risks and quality of service to be provided. This schedule will ensure the full utilization of around 1,500 million euro of Community financial aid already allocated to the project.

It is in this context it is anticipated that the first tender to be launched on the Public-Private Partnership for the granting of design, construction, financing, maintenance and provision of rail infrastructure of the section Poceirão - Caia, with some of 170 kilometers and a estimated total investment of 1,700 million euros, which is part of the rail link between Lisbon and Madrid.

In order to enable the anticipation of the detailed knowledge of the technical characteristics of the section to include this contest, interested parties may purchase from the RAVE a collection on digital media editable of relevant studies, including cartographic information, in manipulável through the assignment of a compromise in terms of access to information available and the payment of the price of € 15.000 (fifteen thousand euros) plus VAT to the statutory rate.

Moreover, the RAVE announced that all studies by the company are available for consultation presence on its premises, sitas in Lisbon, on Avenue D. João II, Lot 1.07.2.1, 1. Th Floor. The consultation will be made by appointment to take to the telephone No 00351 211064000.

This announcement is aimed at the mere dissemination of information, does not constitute any invitation to employ, or having the nature of periodic indicative notice, or any explicitly provided for in national legislation and EU on procurement.

Access to information pursuant now disclosed, without prejudice to the respect that this will be regulated under the partnerships relating to the implementation of the High Speed Railway Network in Portugal, in accordance with the law and in parts of the procedures training of contracts that were to be edited.


Lisbon, March 14, 2008
Translated by google from RAVE anouncement:
http://www.rave.pt/concursos/ppp_poc...ia/anuncio.htm

The entire Lisboa(south)-Madrid project line has just rcently been put "for sale" in a single package ... well ahead of shedule actualy.
- see phase c) option on my list in post 296

Porto-Vigo "service" and the "international station" at Elvas/Badajoz financing were was already tendered (?)some time ago:
http://www.rave.pt/noticia20087.asp

Check the timeline if you have any doubt about anything.
http://www.rave.pt/datas.asp



And for god's sake ... learn how to use online translaction pages like http://translate.google.com/ .
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 01:48 PM   #359
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,548

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
If it is inside the "scope" of the map (it is actualy in the middle of the rectangle) it could be included.
I believe this is the most recent map by elfabyanos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
So Asiatic Turkey is in the middle of France? OK, this is a Western Europe tile, but I haven't seen an Eastern Europe one. I would say that this Western Europe tile shouldn't get much bigger - it's a bit taller than standard screen size, and takes up most of the width (992x1024) already - I like maps that don't cause horizontal scrolling and you can see in one go without the scale being awful.

I think there's a simple solution, sotavento - if you don't like elfabyanos' work, make you own map, using your own definitions of Europe, HSL and so on. Adding what you want, on whatever route you want, etc, etc.
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 01:59 PM   #360
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Again a map you have drawn yourself. Please help me and link to a map with the current route on it.

Re post 275

http://www.rave.pt/homepage.asp - a hompage completely in Portuguese. Great, thanks.

http://www.refer.pt/ - If I click on "welcome" I get a page with
Quote:
News
Newsletter

Eurobond Issues
Nov 2006
On November 9 REFER completed the first part of it's bond issue for 2006, with the pricing of a 20

>> read

REFER publications and collectibles
Jan 2005
Since its foundation, REFER has been preparing a number of books for publication on various themes i

>> read
© 2001-2007, Rede Ferroviária Nacional REFER EP
Exactly what am I looking for here?

http://www.cp.pt/ - again another hompage in Portuguese - what is your point!!!???

Quote:
And about "the map" ... I forgot to add another thing ... it lacks resolution to be of any use ... its too small.
Oh shut up. The original is about 4000 pixels accross, I scale it down to fit sensibly on the screen.

And the article about the confirmation of planning - this map is not about planning - thats the reason why the Rhin-Rhone LGV is only showing a dotted line for the 't' of the route, because thats all that is u/c, the stem of the line to Lyon was on there, until it was pointed out to me (and evidence submitted) that tha part was only in the planning stage and should not be on the map

Last edited by elfabyanos; March 17th, 2008 at 02:38 PM.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium