daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 17th, 2008, 03:02 PM   #361
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
What should be included, at least as "under construction" is:

AUSTRIA:
Brenner Base Tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel
New Lower Inn Valley Railway: Completely new 40 km track for speeds of 250km/h http://www.beg.co.at/implementation/ and http://www.beg.co.at/informationszen...rassenverlauf/ (german)
This is a very good example of the problem which "ELF" has to face. A very carefull reading of the German post (by a qualified translator) clearly indicates that the "tracks" are being constructed for possible future operation at 250 km/h. This would be expected as this is a continuation of the Westbahn and all the new construction on the Westbahn between Sankt Polten and Linz is constructed with tracks which will be capable of future operation at 250 km/h. Some of these tracks were completed in the 1990's and, finally, last year operations at 200 km/h began between Sankt Polten and Linz even though some segments have not yet been completed.

Clearly the new Brennero Bahn deserves to shown as a new link but it should be Grey untill high speed operations actually begin. Austria takes a very long view railway construction and they prepare for the future.

Unfortunately, I suspect that new, quadrupled route on the lower Inn valley may never reach 250 km/h because this is a extremley busy route for freight and threading fast passenger trains through all the German-Italian freight may not be economic.
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details

Last edited by Trainman Dave; March 17th, 2008 at 06:58 PM.
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 17th, 2008, 10:36 PM   #362
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Again a map you have drawn yourself. Please help me and link to a map with the current route on it.

Re post 275

http://www.rave.pt/homepage.asp - a hompage completely in Portuguese. Great, thanks.

http://www.refer.pt/ - If I click on "welcome" I get a page with

Exactly what am I looking for here?

http://www.cp.pt/ - again another hompage in Portuguese - what is your point!!!???

Oh shut up. The original is about 4000 pixels accross, I scale it down to fit sensibly on the screen.

And the article about the confirmation of planning - this map is not about planning - thats the reason why the Rhin-Rhone LGV is only showing a dotted line for the 't' of the route, because thats all that is u/c, the stem of the line to Lyon was on there, until it was pointed out to me (and evidence submitted) that tha part was only in the planning stage and should not be on the map
There is clearly a lack of understanding of the problem from both parties here.

Let me try to explain things as I see them:

a) YOU asked for information

b) information has been given to YOU free of charge

c) Its not "my little map" ... its just a section of YOUR published map with some info for your understanding of the right placement of the HSL ...

d) actualy the dotted lines only were added as future referencing to both Lisboa-Badajoz-Madrid and Lisboa-Porto-Vigo-corunha ...

e) both the atlantic corridor and the lisboa-madrid will be practicaly 100% new trackage ...

f) how can one get the 4000 pixels if you only provide the small one ...

g) currently there is no map of portuguese network wich discriminates line speeds ...

h) if such map should be made available in the near future it will come most probably from yours trully ...

i) bear with it for the time being.


So as far as things go "presently" it is like this: (and remember that it is a CUT from YOUR map)


Currently in operation:
Blue = mains upgraded areas (currently operated at 200/220) << not enough space to make it detailed enough ... not even the areas "under construction" can be defined in detail
Grey = slow areas ... or areas made to 250km/h but operated at lower than 200km/h speeds (such as the isolated grey in lisboa-madrid corridor) or Porto-Braga

The dotted lines are the "new" international relations ... (to my knowledge) the only stretches of the future HSL existant south of Vigo:
a) It seem the small tunel in the south exit of Vigo station is already under construction
b) Porto-Vigo uses the current Braga-Porto (in wich AP trains run presently but not at high speed( (its a dead end with 2 stops in few mileage but it is ready for pendulars at 200km/h in most of it)
c) the Douro crossing Porto-Gaia wich will use the current Northern Line alignement and São João bridge is part of the Lisboa-Porto HSL (And Gaia station just entered reconstruction works this week)
d) the above mentioned CasaBranca-Evora 220/250 km/h line wich is part of the Lisboa-Vigo "mixed traffic" HSL ... will be put at 220(?) km/h as soon as CTC signaling and electrification reach Evora (work is sheduled to star this summer acording to REFER timetabled workings)

So technicaly theres "some" parts of the 3 lines actualy built ... the 2 red/orange/pink dots near Porto and Vigo are there actualy. << just kidding here

sidenote: as as repeatedly said earlier ... you can't currently find any "reliable" information on the HSL in any language other than portuguese ... and believe me ... I tried to find It ... I guess this topic is the only "updated" webpage about the portuguese network going around.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2008, 10:59 PM   #363
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Here is update 16.

Changes include:

France - adding in of a few classic line blue and grey. Trainman Dave - before I put on many of the other grey lines as you've suggested can you show that trains that run on a coloured line on the map at the speed allowed by those coloured lines, also travels on the grey lines you wish added as part of the same journey? This is my distinction between a map showing high speed rail and just a general map showing trunk lines.

Germany - whole new HSL u/c added yay!!!

Italy - Some status changes. The Lochberg base tunnel is already listed for 250km/h! But Brenner Base tunnel added (I had no idea!! - for those interested I googled and found these brief pdfs with a few nuggets of info http://ec.europa.eu/ten/transport/pr...ite/PP01EN.pdf and http://www.fig.net/pub/fig_2002/Ts6-..._schennach.pdf )
I have reinstated Bologna - Verona as a new build it is totally beside the old trackbed. This is the same issue as sevilla - antequera. It's on the cusp of the definition but I wouldn't expect the line to have as many performance constraints as a line rebuilt entirely on the old track bed. I expect perfect foundations, decent gauge restrictions, slightly less harsh curves, at least uniform for the intended linespeed without occasional restrictions you get on classic lines etc etc. Padua-Venezia I don't know, couldn't see any evidence of new trackbed on google maps.

Portugal - I have made it more geographical but removed all sign of the upgrades until I know for sure what is going on. I have included below an excerpt from the excellent maps from the excellent website http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/maps.php. Sotavento, if you would be so kind would you be able to use this map and draw on it the sections which have been upgraded, or are presently being upgraded.



Anyway, here's the update. Thank you to everyone who has been helping, it's all rather a lot and apologies if I've missed stuff - please just keep reminding me.

elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:13 AM   #364
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Something like this: (Based on the TVM from REFER)








^TVM = Maximum speed tables

One should point out that the dark blue and dark grey lines have ALL new trackbed ... they are basicaly NEW lines built in the same place of the old ones (with some major rectification of curves) .. .or even all new track alignements near the old ones (wich were abandoned).
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; March 18th, 2008 at 06:39 AM.
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 07:54 AM   #365
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381

very informative, thanks
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #366
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Thank you Sotavento. Can you post the TVM for reference as well, as this will lie the debate to bed. I will then be happy to put the exact details you have drawn on to the map. The only thing I couldn't include at the moment are the planned sections, however as was mentioned in the first few pages of the thread, my intention is to have a separate map with planned routes on it eventually, but not for now.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 02:06 PM   #367
Joop20
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 610
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
Found more lines that should be added to the map:

- Gardermobanen in Norway. According to the article on wikipedia, trains run up to 210km/h on this 60km track from Oslo's airport to Oslo. Apperantly, this line will be extended to Drammen in 2008, but this new section will not be high-speed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Norway

- Croatia is working on a rail line that connects Zagreb and Rijeka. 'To begin with, the existing line from Botovo via Zagreb to Karlovac will be brought up to date, and a completely new railway line will be constructed from Karlovac to Rijeka. In the future passenger trains will be able to travel at speeds of up to 200 km/h on the new line.' http://www.wieninternational.at/en/node/3426
A reminder for your next update. I think there's no doubt the Norwegian line should be included on the map. Does anyone have more information on that Croatian line?
Joop20 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 02:15 PM   #368
Euklidisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 83
Likes (Received): 0

Here comes some help on Sweden again!
All colors is as elfabyanos system. Grey lines is the daily X2000 network < 200 km/h.

Railways with significant parts of >= 200 km/h:

A, The West coast line (Västkustbanan)
B, The South main line (Södra stambanan)
C, The West main line (Västra stambanan)
D, The East coast line (Ostkustbanan)
E, The Lake Mälaren line (Mälarbanan)
F, The Svealand line (Svealandsbanan)

Railways Under construction (sorry, havnt found in English for all projects, but you can look att the images and maps):

1, New double track (2012), The Norway/Lake Vänern line (Norge/Vänern-banan)
English link: http://www.vv.se/bv_templates/Page____22094.aspx

2, New double track (2008), The West coast line (Västkustbanan)
Images: http://www.banverket.se/sv/Amnen/Akt...projektet.aspx

3, New double track (2012), The West coast line (Västkustbanan)
English link: http://www.banverket.se/pages/4439/T...oject_2005.pdf

4, New single track (2010), The Bothnia line (Botniabanan)
English link: http://www.botniabanan.se/default.aspx?id=2136

5, New single track (2011), The Ådal line (Ådalsbanan)
Map: http://www.banverket.se//pages/5761/...5dalsbanan.pdf

6, New single track (2012), The Haparnada line (Haparandabanan)
Map: http://www.banverket.se/pages/6883/Haparanda.jpg

Euklidisk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 03:28 PM   #369
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Thats great guys, thanks - it really is about time to do scandanavia. Does anone have any good details of other country's high speed trains that go into Denmark?
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:18 PM   #370
Euklidisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 83
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thats great guys, thanks - it really is about time to do scandanavia. Does anone have any good details of other country's high speed trains that go into Denmark?
Swedish X2000 goes Stockholm-Copenhagen.

Last edited by Euklidisk; March 18th, 2008 at 06:26 PM.
Euklidisk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 08:14 PM   #371
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

On what route? Edit actually thats pretty obvious.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 08:32 PM   #372
virgule82
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 180
Likes (Received): 3

Might as well do Norway then, it'll be short and pitiful, although there are big plans for the future


This is a map of all railroad lines in Southern Norway, so you don't want to include all of them on your map since very little of it is high speed. Oslo to Eidsvoll is 210 km/h new build (Gardermobanen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardermobanen). There should be a gray line extending west to Drammen since the express train goes there now.

Vestfoldbanen southwest of Oslo is being rebuilt with essentially a new line for 200 km/h : (Red is completed construction, white is being built in 2008-15)



That's a map from the Norwegan rail authority. There are plenty of lines that will be rebuilt very shortly but generally they have been focusing on capacity instead of speed. Hopefully, there will be a lot more color on the norwegian map a few years from now

Last edited by virgule82; March 18th, 2008 at 09:02 PM.
virgule82 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #373
Yardmaster
Registered Melbourne
 
Yardmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,152
Likes (Received): 198

Very impressive; in fact unsurpassed.

Since I tend to defend the upgrades made here in little old SE Australia (while many here deride our progress) I have a certain interest in this. We certainly don't have any 300 km/hr + lines, and although trains running here at 160 km/hr aren't a novelty, having more of them running "so fast" is a bonus.

There certainly aren't any "new lines" cut through this part of the world, but then, with 21 milion people in an area the size of Europe, we're lucky we've got rail at all (apart from where we rail all that coal & ore out, most efficient rail services on earth).

A few questions I'd like to ask .... getting back to the last Western Europe map .... firstly, are the dotted lines projected or under construction?

Secondly, the purple/magenta high-speed (dotted) "classic" lines are mainly in Spain (the trains in Spain stay mainly on the gain?) ... this refers back to the previous question. I'm kinda surprised at this development in NW Spain: which I never thought was overly-populated.

This isn't a European Forum: it's a world one: so perhaps someone can speak for Spain ...
Yardmaster no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 09:19 PM   #374
rheintram
yeah, whatever
 
rheintram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,598
Likes (Received): 924

In Austria Unterinntaltrasse (posted the links to the maps before) is still missing, while you added Brenner-Basis-Tunnel. If you have problem locating it. It continues from the brenner basistunnel (which is at the Austrian-Italian border) about 45 km to the east.
rheintram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 12:17 AM   #375
gincan
Gincan
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 887
Likes (Received): 183

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
Very impressive; in fact unsurpassed.

Since I tend to defend the upgrades made here in little old SE Australia (while many here deride our progress) I have a certain interest in this. We certainly don't have any 300 km/hr + lines, and although trains running here at 160 km/hr aren't a novelty, having more of them running "so fast" is a bonus.

There certainly aren't any "new lines" cut through this part of the world, but then, with 21 milion people in an area the size of Europe, we're lucky we've got rail at all (apart from where we rail all that coal & ore out, most efficient rail services on earth).

A few questions I'd like to ask .... getting back to the last Western Europe map .... firstly, are the dotted lines projected or under construction?

Secondly, the purple/magenta high-speed (dotted) "classic" lines are mainly in Spain (the trains in Spain stay mainly on the gain?) ... this refers back to the previous question. I'm kinda surprised at this development in NW Spain: which I never thought was overly-populated.

This isn't a European Forum: it's a world one: so perhaps someone can speak for Spain ...

NW Spain is actually quite populated, not throughout but the towns are pretty large and very dense, A Coruña has 250 thousand i the city and 400 thousand in the metropolitan area, Vigo has some 300 thousand in the city and 400 thousand in the metro, Ferrol has some 200 thousand in the metro, Ourense and Santiago both about 100 thousand in the city.

The thing about all the purple lines in Spain is that apart from all the new 300km/h lines they also have an upgrade program for the lesser lines, actually more than half of the 10.000km of HSR projected are upgraded classic lines, funding for these upgrades are heavily contributed by the regional government.

Last edited by gincan; March 19th, 2008 at 12:24 AM.
gincan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 03:10 AM   #376
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
Very impressive; in fact unsurpassed.

A few questions I'd like to ask .... getting back to the last Western Europe map .... firstly, are the dotted lines projected or under construction?
Thank you very much, it's definitely been very much a joint effort from all the forumers at SSC!

The dotted lines are under construction. Everything on there will definitely be in service in the future.

Last edited by elfabyanos; March 19th, 2008 at 03:16 AM.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #377
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Help required.

I have been trying to do some research and finding it hard, mainly because I only speak English and a bit of French!!!

If anyone has any advice regarding the following I will be most grateful:

Spain - Detail on the routes running over classic lines that have part of their journey on an HSL and at least 200km/h. There as as yet very few grey lines on the map for Spain.

Italy - likewise. I know there are services to Geneva and Rimini and the foot but I haven't found it aesy to ascertain what type of ttrains run these services (apart from the ETR 480 Cisalpino routes).

Switzerland - I will be adding the Cisalpino services, however there are other native 200km/h tilting trains in Switzerland and I believe there are sections of upgraded line to at least 200km/h, yet apart from the base tunnels and the new line from Rohtrist (of which I have just discovered there is a spur towards Solothurn) all the lines are grey.

France - I've asked Trainman Dave for help clarifying the types of trains using classic lines, but I'm also looking for any detail about the vast Central Massif region that is completely bare at the moment.

Austria - Any info about this country would be helpful - I haven't really researched Austria but I have a suspicion most data on the internet will be in German!

Czech Republic - They have nice new 220km/h Pendolino trains, but is any of the line up to scratch yet? Is it being upgraded? Do any ICE services from Germany go there?

Scandanavia is looking good at the moment - I've done Euklidisk's Sweden, and a bit of Norway. I would appreciate some advice on where the Flytojets go in regular service. Are there any cross-border services between Norway, Sweden and Finland? I've added ICE and Swedish X2000 services to Copenhagen, and I have loads of info on Finnish railways (possibly the most technical minded of all European countries' railway operator's websites!)

The next version of the map will be expanded to include more of Europe again and I will post this within the next few days.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #378
virgule82
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 180
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Help required.


Scandanavia is looking good at the moment - I've done Euklidisk's Sweden, and a bit of Norway. I would appreciate some advice on where the Flytojets go in regular service. Are there any cross-border services between Norway, Sweden and Finland? I've added ICE and Swedish X2000 services to Copenhagen, and I have loads of info on Finnish railways (possibly the most technical minded of all European countries' railway operator's websites!)

.
Speaking for Norway, Flytoget goes from Gardermoen airport to Asker, which is a bit west of Oslo. I just doublechecked and service to Drammen is delayed until next year, so you may not want to include it. There is an Oslo-Stockholm service, although it's not high speed, at least in Norway. There are also trains Oslo-Gothenburg-Copenhagen, and they probably do go pretty fast in parts of Sweden at least. Update: I checked and Oslo-Gothenburg should definitely be a grey line.

Last edited by virgule82; March 19th, 2008 at 09:42 PM.
virgule82 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 01:10 AM   #379
jkjkjk
Registered User
 
jkjkjk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 80
Likes (Received): 1

thx again elfabyanos, for your effort on the map.

Denmark - from December 2007 German ICE TD are servicing Berlin - Hamburg - Copenhagen line, from march 2008 Hamburg - Aarhus line added; but max speed these trains in Denmark is 180 km/h.

Czech Republic - completed and under construction upgrades are all for 160 km/h only. There are some projects for faster tracks, but they are just projects. No ICE service in Czech Republic because of different voltage and safety system
jkjkjk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 20th, 2008, 01:39 AM   #380
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Brenner Base Tunnel is not under construction, nor is the Fréjus Base Tunnel or Lyon-Turin.

Works started recently for the Brenner Base Tunnel, but they haven't still started boring.

For the Lyon-Turin some service tunnels - one even 4 km in long - have been build.

But for both the future is uncertain. They are nor under construction, nor only at the planning stage, something between...

====================

Only the Mattsteten-Rothrist and the base tunnels iln Switzerland are projected for 200 km/h. Speed on other lines doesn't exceed 160 km/h. The spur to Solothurn is very short and single track, being an upgraded line. I think it shoult not be included.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium