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Old March 31st, 2008, 01:08 AM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
If no trains actually use these tracks at the potential speed I'll have to downgrade them, leaving them maybe dashed between the two speeds, to show that that capability is u/c in terms of the trains to provide it.
Ok, that's fair enough If a train operator would upgrade or buy new trains they would save about 2 minutes on these stretches, until it exists longer bits it won't be economical.
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Old March 31st, 2008, 01:13 AM   #402
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I cannot understand the reason why the Padua-Venice is blue, it's a brand new +300Km/h running close to the old track!!
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Old March 31st, 2008, 04:34 AM   #403
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You are right!! And also the strech between Pioltello (east of Milan) and Treviglio is a new line.
Have you got any info about the lines in Italy in which trains can reach speeds above 180km/h??? I've heard there are some parts in the line between Genoa and Rome running through the coast ( Linia Tirrenica) and also in some parts between Milan-Bologna-Ancona. Am I right??
Thanks.
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Old March 31st, 2008, 12:59 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon83 View Post
I cannot understand the reason why the Padua-Venice is blue, it's a brand new +300Km/h running close to the old track!!
I even looked at wikimapia and still missed it!!! I've looked closer and can see it is a new trackbed next to the old. I wasn't aware it was 300km/h though!!!! I will change it on the next version. Can anyone help with where I should put grey lines on the italy map? I know I need to add in Milan - Genova as there are Cisalpino services to there, but surely some Napoli-Roma services go on to Genova too?
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Old March 31st, 2008, 07:35 PM   #405
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Why aren't the new French high speed lines that are already approved not shown on the map like those of other European countries? There should be dotted lines on the map showing them.

Here are the lines that have been officially approved:
1- line from Le Mans to Rennes: opening in 2013. Here is a map:



2- line from Tours to Bordeaux: opening in 2013 (southern section) and 2016 (northern section). Here is a map (blue line):



3- line from Bordeaux to Toulouse: opening in 2018. I don't have a map.

4- line from Lorraine (where the LGV Est stops now) to Strasbourg (from Baudrecourt to Vendenheim exactly): opening in 2015. Map:



5- line from Nîmes to Montpellier: opening in 2013. Map (red line):



All these new lines should appear as dotted lines on your map.

There are also longer term projects for lines from Lyon to Turin, Marseille to Nice, Montpellier to Perpignan, Bordeaux to Dax, and Poitiers to Limoges, but I didn't list them because they are still at a very early stage.

Last but not least, the new CEO of the SNCF has anounced that the commercial speed of the French TGVs will be raised to 350-360 km/h (220-225 miles per hour), so you'll have to create a new color on your map for that speed.

Last edited by brisavoine; March 31st, 2008 at 07:40 PM.
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Old March 31st, 2008, 09:00 PM   #406
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which lines do you talk about? As far as I can se he has only drawn lines under construction. It would be very tedious to draw every line approved, I mean only to get Spain right would be to much.

And until Spain, France or some other country starts 350km/h revenue service I se no reason to ad a unused color.

Last edited by gincan; March 31st, 2008 at 09:10 PM.
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Old March 31st, 2008, 09:17 PM   #407
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brisavoine - thanks so much for those maps, they're brilliant!!! Where do you get them?

Re. the europe map, it is specifically for existing or u/c lines only - there are millions of "future" maps, that most people from around the world think "I'll believe it when I see it". Maybe once I've finished the map I can start adding proposals and approved lines, but I'm not there yet. At the moment nothing goes on the map until builders arrive on site.
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Old April 1st, 2008, 12:52 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kantabro_83 View Post
Don't have any clue, sorry
Have you got any info about the lines in Italy in which trains can reach speeds above 180km/h??? I've heard there are some parts in the line between Genoa and Rome running through the coast ( Linia Tirrenica) and also in some parts between Milan-Bologna-Ancona. Am I right??
Thanks.
I don't have any clue, sorry
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Old April 1st, 2008, 12:55 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
I even looked at wikimapia and still missed it!!! I've looked closer and can see it is a new trackbed next to the old. I wasn't aware it was 300km/h though!!!! I will change it on the next version. Can anyone help with where I should put grey lines on the italy map? I know I need to add in Milan - Genova as there are Cisalpino services to there, but surely some Napoli-Roma services go on to Genova too?
Yeah, then you should put the Adriatic line and the Tyrrenian line (grey).
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Old April 1st, 2008, 02:54 PM   #410
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What are those lines, what services are on them and where do they go please.
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Old April 1st, 2008, 07:29 PM   #411
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Some trains will use the Milano-Bologna HSL and then continue along the Adriatic coast, so this line may be drawn in grey. But south of Bologna and on the Tirrenica line there are no real high speed lines, just some short streches upgraded to 160-200 km/h here and there. The Tirrenica line shoult not be drawn as even if there may be some "fast" trains no one continue or will continue on real HS lines.

A completely new stretch of about 70 km between the French border (Ventimiglia) and Finale Ligure (before Genova) is being built. I don't know its speed limits, probably 180 km/h for normal trains and 200 km/h for tilting trains. Note that 60 km out of 70 km will be in tunnel, quite a boring experience compared to the existing scenic single track line. The first ~20 km of this line have been opened in 2001, another ~20 km will open in 2011-2014 (who knows?), the remaining ~30 km still have to be financed.

The newly built line from Italy to the Austrian border doesn't start from the sea as shows the map but some 50-100 km inland. And it is quit short, about 60 km.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
I even looked at wikimapia and still missed it!!! I've looked closer and can see it is a new trackbed next to the old. I wasn't aware it was 300km/h though!!!! I will change it on the next version. Can anyone help with where I should put grey lines on the italy map? I know I need to add in Milan - Genova as there are Cisalpino services to there, but surely some Napoli-Roma services go on to Genova too?
There are no Cisalpino trains from Milano to Genova and Livorno, CIS tilting trains will start to run there maybe from december 2008. At the moment there are loco hauled trains branded by Cisalpino.

Cisalpino at the moment are not real HS trains, even if they use the two new 200 km/h lines in Switzerland. However, they will run between Zürich and Roma via teh Gotthard Basis Tunnel and Italian HSL when they will be opened. Probably there will be one Zürich-Milano-Roma, one Zürich-Milano-genova-Livorno, and three trains from Geneva, Basel and Zürich to Venice, plus (a lot of) other trains between the 3 Swiss terminii and Milano.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 03:38 AM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
brisavoine - thanks so much for those maps, they're brilliant!!! Where do you get them?

Re. the europe map, it is specifically for existing or u/c lines only - there are millions of "future" maps, that most people from around the world think "I'll believe it when I see it". Maybe once I've finished the map I can start adding proposals and approved lines, but I'm not there yet. At the moment nothing goes on the map until builders arrive on site.
Several comments:
1- I doubt 100% of the lines you showed as u/c in Spain are actually u/c. For example as far as I know there is no construction going on at the moment south of Figueres (in the north of Catalonia). In June last year the Spanish minister of transportation announced that the line from Figueres to Barcelona would be three years late and would open in 2012 instead of 2009 as had been initially scheduled. I suspect there could be similar cases on other Spanish lines you showed as u/c, especially now that Spain is facing a sharp fall of its economic growth and a credit crunch.

2- the French lines I listed above (from #1 to #5) are 100% sure to built. It's not like these very optimistic Spanish maps drawn during the Spanish economic boom where you see the entire country crisscrossed by future high speed lines, most of which will probably not be built, or at least not anytime soon, now that the economic boom is over. The 5 French lines I mentioned have gone through all the tedious administrative steps required by French law (except the Bordeaux-Toulouse line still one administrative step behind the other four lines), and are currently getting the last rubber stamp before work actually begins. The line from Bordeaux to Angoulême, for instance, will open in the end of 2012, exactly at the same time as the line from Figueres to Barcelona, yet you show the Figueres-Barcelona line on your map but not the Bordeaux-Angoulême line. Same for the line from Nîmes to Montpellier and the line from Le Mans to Rennes which will both open almost at the same time as the Figueres-Barcelona and which you didn't show on your map either.

3- The other French lines that I mentioned briefly, such as like Marseille-Nice, are still at a too early stage to be 100% sure, and for them it is indeed justified not to show them on the map.

PS: Concerning the maps, I collected them in various French websites on the internet.
PPS: The Bordeaux-Toulouse high speed line may be one administrative step behind the other four French lines, but I can tell you it's 100% sure to be built because in my hometown which lies on the line they have already picked the land where they'll build the new TGV station. They wouldn't have done that if it was just a vague project in the future.

Last edited by brisavoine; April 2nd, 2008 at 03:44 AM.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 10:53 AM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Several comments:
1- I doubt 100% of the lines you showed as u/c in Spain are actually u/c. For example as far as I know there is no construction going on at the moment south of Figueres (in the north of Catalonia). In June last year the Spanish minister of transportation announced that the line from Figueres to Barcelona would be three years late and would open in 2012 instead of 2009 as had been initially scheduled. I suspect there could be similar cases on other Spanish lines you showed as u/c, especially now that Spain is facing a sharp fall of its economic growth and a credit crunch.
Why don't you just download the map (already outdated) in post 328 in this thread, If you study it carefully you'll se that there are actually more lines UC than what he has drawn (for example south of Murcia and south of Cáceres and a 150km long section on the Galician branch), many of the lines are built in stages so only a strech is UC but that doesn't change the fact that the line is UC.

If you still don't believe it you can also pay a visit to the spanish infrastructure tread where pictures of the constructions are posted regulary. And then there are also the infrastructure treads in many of the spanish regional threads where you can find pictures of the constructions.

The line south of Figueres is UC and has been for years, in fact it was commenced simultaneously with the Tarragona-Barcelona line, you can easily see it from AP7 south of Girona, the 2012 date is because they have not yet started with the Girona and Barcelona tunnels which are both very long and complicated constructions. The rest of Barcelona-French border will be finnish long before.

Last edited by gincan; April 2nd, 2008 at 06:54 PM.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 12:00 PM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Several comments:
2- the French lines I listed above (from #1 to #5) are 100% sure to built. It's not like these very optimistic Spanish maps drawn during the Spanish economic boom where you see the entire country crisscrossed by future high speed lines, most of which will probably not be built, or at least not anytime soon, now that the economic boom is over. The 5 French lines I mentioned have gone through all the tedious administrative steps required by French law (except the Bordeaux-Toulouse line still one administrative step behind the other four lines), and are currently getting the last rubber stamp before work actually begins. The line from Bordeaux to Angoulême, for instance, will open in the end of 2012, exactly at the same time as the line from Figueres to Barcelona, yet you show the Figueres-Barcelona line on your map but not the Bordeaux-Angoulême line. Same for the line from Nîmes to Montpellier and the line from Le Mans to Rennes which will both open almost at the same time as the Figueres-Barcelona and which you didn't show on your map either.
There is nothing optimistic about the spanish future network, it will be built, probably not on time but it will be built. The budget for the rail part of the infrastructure spendings up to 2020 is close to 100 billion euros, and then there are the regional governments that have their own infrastructure plans, Catalonia for example have something like 20 billion euros set aside for rail spendings up to 2025. You have to understand that there is no alternative if Spain is to achieve their part in the climate change combat, and with the oil price set to soar in the coming years, rail is the only realistic alternative.

And it is not only heavy rail they are building, every mayor city in Spain have a railbased metro plan, be it LTR, tramways or subways but they have now realised they can't go on with only roadbased transport.

Last edited by gincan; April 2nd, 2008 at 12:11 PM.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 03:41 PM   #415
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Gincan - can you post links to the Spanish threads that show the photos - I'm rubbish at spanish!!!! It would be nice to know.

Brisavoine - I appreciate your points but as far as I can tell the lines u/c are u/c, and builders are on site scratching their bums, even if only for part of the route. No one would build a line that stops in the middle of nowhere unless it was designed in stages like HS1. The lines that are 100% certain in France will be added to the map once construction begins. I can do nothing else otherwise it undermines the entire concept, which, by the way, was not my own. The approach of this map has effectively been collectively determined by all the contributors, and whilst I by default have the last word, I wouldn't follow this approach unless it was generally accepted by all the forumers, which it seems to be. At the moment I will not add a line to the map until the land is physically scarred.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 05:42 PM   #416
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There are many threads and they are long, specific post with pictures are often burried in an ocean of posts but I have followed these threads sporadically for the last years and they do post UC pictures now and then.

The general AVE thread
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=571984

The Madrid-Valencia-Alicante thread, lots of UC pictures of the entrance to Valencia and the main tunnel of the line have been posted recently, they are somewhere in the last 10-15 pages of posts. I made a quick check, these pages have UC pitures 8,9,19,21,22 25,26
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=140615

The Madrid-Galicia HSR line thread, UC photos on page 1,2,5,9,12, actually more but links have expired. Very active thread with lots of UC pics postings.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=458128

The Aragon thread with lots of information concerning the UC Zaragoza-Valencia line.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=318137

The Murcia region thread with pics of the HSR line UC. Page 15 post 292 has UC pics of a section recently finished.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=203110

The Madrid-Portugese Border with UC pictures
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=594892

The Madrid-Barcelona-French border, no pictures have been posted from the Barcelona-French Border section for a long time, there where however pictures of the construction posted a year ago, don't know if they are there or if the links have expired, they are anyway burried in hundreds of posts.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=585165

The Basque Y thread, I havn't seen any pics yet but a guy posted a link to flicr with pictures of the line UC, some tunnels and trackbeds.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=562866

Thread for the region north of Madrid, I have seen pictures here but they are probably burried deep.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=339647

General Thread for Andalucia, pictures of construction show up sporadically. Pics of the UC Seville-Granada line I believe on page 8, Pics of the Seville-Cadiz line UC on page 33
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=457473

The Gailcian Atlantic line, Portugese Border-Ferrol, the thread has a lot of UC pictures, but as usual burried in an ocean of posts, a few ones on the initial pages. Probably the best thread concerning coverage of the construction of the line.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=458155

The North Spain thread, it is about everything concerning rail, a few posts yet but once the Asturian HSR line kicks in you'll se lot of more posts with pictures.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...411873&page=59

Last edited by gincan; April 4th, 2008 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Added Madrid-Galicia line thread
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 10:01 PM   #417
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thats excellent, thanks!!!
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:21 AM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Several comments:
1- I doubt 100% of the lines you showed as u/c in Spain are actually u/c. For example as far as I know there is no construction going on at the moment south of Figueres (in the north of Catalonia). In June last year the Spanish minister of transportation announced that the line from Figueres to Barcelona would be three years late and would open in 2012 instead of 2009 as had been initially scheduled. I suspect there could be similar cases on other Spanish lines you showed as u/c, especially now that Spain is facing a sharp fall of its economic growth and a credit crunch.

2- the French lines I listed above (from #1 to #5) are 100% sure to built. It's not like these very optimistic Spanish maps drawn during the Spanish economic boom where you see the entire country crisscrossed by future high speed lines, most of which will probably not be built, or at least not anytime soon, now that the economic boom is over. The 5 French lines I mentioned have gone through all the tedious administrative steps required by French law (except the Bordeaux-Toulouse line still one administrative step behind the other four lines), and are currently getting the last rubber stamp before work actually begins. The line from Bordeaux to Angoulême, for instance, will open in the end of 2012, exactly at the same time as the line from Figueres to Barcelona, yet you show the Figueres-Barcelona line on your map but not the Bordeaux-Angoulême line. Same for the line from Nîmes to Montpellier and the line from Le Mans to Rennes which will both open almost at the same time as the Figueres-Barcelona and which you didn't show on your map either.

3- The other French lines that I mentioned briefly, such as like Marseille-Nice, are still at a too early stage to be 100% sure, and for them it is indeed justified not to show them on the map.

PS: Concerning the maps, I collected them in various French websites on the internet.
PPS: The Bordeaux-Toulouse high speed line may be one administrative step behind the other four French lines, but I can tell you it's 100% sure to be built because in my hometown which lies on the line they have already picked the land where they'll build the new TGV station. They wouldn't have done that if it was just a vague project in the future.
1- (your) ignorance about them (spanish lines u/c) don't makes them nonexistant ... others may think the same thing you do about your 100% sure-to-be-built Frnech HSL.

It should be noted that there are a lot of lines u/c in spain that are not even in the map ... those of us with any knowledge on the spanish AVE work in progress should be able to find enough information to keep elfen ocupied for the next decade or two.

2- 100% sure but "not" u/c yet ... those are kept from the map for now ... they are a LOT of them (here in portugal only we get more than 2000km of them ... spain has some 10.000km of "to-be-built-next-years")

3- We should start "avoiding" even mentioning the "planned" routes ... its all too confusing to even gatter info on currently u/c routes.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 01:48 AM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
brisavoine - thanks so much for those maps, they're brilliant!!! Where do you get them?

Re. the europe map, it is specifically for existing or u/c lines only - there are millions of "future" maps, that most people from around the world think "I'll believe it when I see it". Maybe once I've finished the map I can start adding proposals and approved lines, but I'm not there yet. At the moment nothing goes on the map until builders arrive on site.
elfenbayos ... could you add some 2 aditional colors to your map ???

1- something different than the light grey for that routes that are not true high speed but that can allow fast services ???

like 160-200 km/h ??? mayby dark grey ??? for example it can help explain why someplaces don't have a DENSE HSL network and expecialy it helps us to get a propper idea on how big is the Intercity network in europe.

Most classic Intercity routes only fail on the "infraestructure" part of "high speed" trio (trains + route + service)

2- a color diferent from the current pallete to those "projected" routes that everyone is always trying to see added ... the "well-known-projects" ... something like bright/dark green ??? only a 1 pixel mark to see where the projected route apears (this could even REMOVE a large portion of the u/c routes as most are only being worked in small stretches.

3- instead of a dotted line can you add a thin line to "under construction" routes ??? or even only making a one pixel wide mark on where the route is suposed to go in the future ???
some sections (lets say MOST sections) currently being built are too small to be dotted lines ... and others are current lines being upgraded so we can't see how they are currently.

For example in spain we get dots for lines where in 6 months there will be a train passing and dot's where they are boring the entrance of a tunnel and in 3/4 years no one will see a train passing ... and in that timeframe some other routes that today don't get in the map will be fully functional.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 12:22 PM   #420
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i can help you guys about minsk!
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