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Old April 5th, 2008, 03:16 AM   #441
sotavento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Thanks for the info, it's quite interesting. As an aside on the Spanish economy front, I had the impression many Spanish companies extended their finances quite a lot over the last 5 years taking part in the world wide boom of take overs. I would have thought the large amount of leveraged debt these companies used to purchase other companies would be affected by the credit crunch? However, if as you say the leverage had little to do with sub-prime USA it would be quite protected.

Re the choice of colours. I have had difficulty classifying Spanish lines for pretty much exaclty the reasons you state. I would like to have further info to ensure I have made the right choices.
... people waiting for spanish downfall will be disapointed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
For the lines I would need to know:

a) Change of guage?
b) Change of trackbed?
c) Changes in bridges and other restrictive infrastructure?
d) Changes to alignment?
e) New track-bed next to the old?

and any other info. then it's just a case of having a debate I suppose!!!1
The "new" lines in spain are mostly 100% new lines in 100% new alignements ... nonetheless Renfe/Adif had a policy of renovating old lines with monobloc/dual-gauge sleepers ... but routes are usualy "slow speed" everywere except in the new routes built for the AVE network.

Basicaly only Madrid-Valencia and Valencia-Barcelona were partly upgraded to 200km/h while the rest are at speeds os 140/160 km/h (even the atlantic corridor) ... they lack 25kv 50Hz AC electrification for 200km/h (or higher) to be competitive (iberian gauge routes electrified are 3000vDC).

there was a map somewhere (a little bit outdated) that showed line speeds in the iberian gauge (with Madrid-Sevilla added) ... will try to find it.

But about the "color" of different gauges .. .does it realy matter ??? since gauge changing trains are so common in europe nowadays it 's not a problem at all ...

Another example is the definition of NEW or UPGRADED track ... when a NEW track is built and the old track is abandoned/left to rott ... if its sufficiently near it should be simply treated as an augmentation on the number of tracks ??? It would simplify things a lot if it were just left as simple as that.

I would prefer to see a new color for 160<>200 intercity trains (it would add a lot of "detail" to the map).

A little mixture of sorts: (notice it is still labeled "expected at 2020")


Added 3 extra colors:
- black = lines that are actualy BUILT nowadays ("built" as in revenue services at high speeds use them)
- light green = new lines projected/studied (not u/c and not verified "by me")
- dark green = existing lines projected/studied for upgrading (could be some new lines , or lines u/c in there ... will clean these up as I gather some information)

threat all other colours withou a black line as "projected" and/or with some part of it u/c (coul be as little as a tunnel entrance bored in a 900km route so bear with it for now)
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Last edited by sotavento; April 5th, 2008 at 03:54 AM.
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Old April 5th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #442
elfabyanos
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Wow thanks for all the info Sotavento. You're right, I need to learn Portuguese and Spanish. I'm ok at reading these kinds of documents in French and Italian a bit too so it can't be that hard!!!

Thanks for all the links. I appreciate what you're saying about 160-200km/h, but that would be SOOOOO much work to put all that in on the map. Maybe someone else can do that once we've finished this bit!!!!

The question re guage change; the reason why I state that is that if there has been a guage change then the upgrade works must have been quite significant (not just checking for flaws in the rails and adding new signalling) and so could be a clue to how the upgrade should be percieved. I agree guage has little to do with performance per se.

Brisavoine - The criteria is construction. There is no need to be impatient. The lines in France are 100% guaranteed, so they will go on the map once construction starts. Date of completion as criteria is partly why all other maps are misleading and why this one was started. Please read this thread from the very start if you need to understand why we are doing it this way.
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Old April 5th, 2008, 06:09 PM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
But about the "color" of different gauges .. .does it realy matter ??? since gauge changing trains are so common in europe nowadays it 's not a problem at all ...
Even if there are prototypes also in Poland and Japan, variable gauge trains are actually used only in Spain and only for passengers.
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Old April 5th, 2008, 06:50 PM   #444
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[email protected]

All you need to know about the Basque Y in english including news updates, you find construction photos in the photo gallery.

http://www.euskalyvasca.com/en/home.html
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Old April 6th, 2008, 03:37 AM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Even if there are prototypes also in Poland and Japan, variable gauge trains are actually used only in Spain and only for passengers.
but what is the matter ??? high speed trains with another gauge are not a problem at all ... a helsinki-moscow route would not need to be discriminated .. .or would it ???

Let's then just add its segregation to the things that didn't make it into the list YET!!!


- slow routes served by "pure" high speed trains (actualy there are some grey lines ... too many actualy)
- slow IC services (160km/h or more ?)
- rail gauge of the routes
- electrification/signaling tipes if any (as these have a huge influence on speed limits and route capacity)
- state of the project (wished-uppon , planing , studied , projected , assigned , early u/c works , railway u/c , operational) ???

some more wishes for a future inclusion ???
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 6th, 2008, 02:58 PM   #446
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HST with other gauges are being built now (Velaro for Russia), but variable gauge trains in regular service outside Spain don't exist at the moment.

The Velaro shoult be for the Moscow-St Pertersburg route (four train 3/25 kV, four 3 kV only). For Helsinki-St Peterburg a few Pendolino tilting trains are under construction. Both can run only with 1520/1524 mm gauge.

===============

A map covering the whole Europe shoult contain only really important informations, it has to be simple.

Fast IC services, gauge, electrification, signalling systems sholud not be included. Continuos line for lines in operation, dotted line for lines under construction.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=329
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Old April 6th, 2008, 10:29 PM   #447
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Latest update A few more corrections.

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Old April 7th, 2008, 01:28 AM   #448
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Classic lines served by HSL trains

Classic lines served by HSL trains - please put scpendolino network as grey colour on the map - more info on http://www.scpendolino.cz/

Pendolino trains are used also on the lines in Slovenia; Ljubjana - Maribor and Ljubjana - Venice.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 02:30 AM   #449
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Some info about one of the lines in Spain;

The line you have drawn south of Madrid-Seville line (the pink) is offset quite a lot. It is actually a parallel line to the Madrid-Seville line begining from where the blue line south of Madrid towards Valencia begin.

A short section (10km) of the line has already been finnished and two other sections are under construction. The first 47km between Alcázar de San Juan (where the blue line you have drawn begin) and Manzanares begun construction 2007. Just recently another 45km section began construction at the south end of the line between Linares and Jaén. The section between Manzanares and Linares (some 90km) has yet to commence construction.

It is an uppgrade where they are eliminating levelcrossings, reinforcing the trackbed, eliminating sharp curves, laying new tracks new signaling system and catenary. Once the whole line is finnished the gauge will be changed and 25Kv electrification installed to support 250km/h service.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 01:00 PM   #450
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So much of that line has changed alignment etc that it's end performance will be indistinguishable from that of a new build line, hence me classifying it as new build. The location I'll have a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubert Pollak View Post
Classic lines served by HSL trains - please put scpendolino network as grey colour on the map - more info on http://www.scpendolino.cz/

Pendolino trains are used also on the lines in Slovenia; Ljubjana - Maribor and Ljubjana - Venice.
I have very little info on the Czech republic. I am not aware that any of the tracks are viable for 200km/h operation yet. If they are I need to know what sections, though the map I have of linespeeds shows none. Lines only qualify for grey line inclusion if the services on them actually travel at over 200km/h at some point in their journey. The trains are capable of over 220 km/h, but this is irrelevent if this is not ever utilised.
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Old April 7th, 2008, 06:00 PM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
So much of that line has changed alignment etc that it's end performance will be indistinguishable from that of a new build line, hence me classifying it as new build. The location I'll have a look.
Actually the old line between Alcázar de San Juan and Manzanares is almost dead straight so they chose to use the old line alignment exept for a 3km section where there is a curve they will build away. To define it as an upgrade or completely new line is debatable, performance wise it will be a new line capable of 250km/h throughout. You can try to use a online translator and read this page to get an idea about the works involved.
http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/9...6/06072111.pdf

At the south end of the line between Linares and Jaén there will be a completely new line built along a 20km section.

The middle section that still hasn't commenced construction crosses a 40km wide mountain range, here I suspect they will build a completely new line as the old is very curvy and not possible to upgrade to high speeds. So parts of the line will be totaly new and other parts will be the old alignment but to very high standards (250km/h).
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Old April 7th, 2008, 07:39 PM   #452
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On second thoughts you're right, this line should be listed as upgrade, but only for the bits that should be. I think I was getting confused with some other lines. When I fix the alignment I'll put the various sections in. Are you sure I'll be able to locate the different parts with the places you've listed?
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Old April 7th, 2008, 10:16 PM   #453
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You'll find the sections, just look it up in googlemaps or wikimapia or google earth. The north section begins at Alcázar de San Juan (120km south of Madrid) and ends at Manzanares, the line is the one that runs straight south directly. The other section UC is Between Linares and Jaén, Linares is located ca 100km south of Manzanares. You can see a map of the section on this webpage. http://ferrocarriles.wikia.com/wiki/...ares-Ja%C3%A9n

In the future they will build a dedicated passenger HSR line branching of the Madrid-Seville line to connect it to Alcázar de San Juan but that is still a few years in the future.

If you want a good map showing every line and its geographical correct route, the map in post 328 on page 17 is the best you'll ever get. It is drawn by persons that have very good insight in the raildevelopment of Spain. If you want I can translate the diffrent colors of the map so you can get a better idea what it shows.

Last edited by gincan; April 7th, 2008 at 10:23 PM.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 10:12 AM   #454
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So what I've drawn is mainly the Alcázar de San spur to the Madrid-Seville line which isn't under construction yet, but the other two bits are, and they should be connected by a grey line? BTW, are there other grey lines I should draw? I've got a map of the network from Buekker.net but I don't know where the actual AVE/Alvia services can end up on the classic routes.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 01:41 PM   #455
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No you have drawn a line that does not exist, If you check the Buekker.net map you have drawn the line starting somewhere around Puertollano (on the Madrid-seville line) heading straight down where in fact there is no line there and never will be. You should move it to the parallel line you se on the Buekker map starting at Alcazar de Sant juan and ending at Jaén.

The Alcazar to Madrid-Seville line isn't even on that map, in fact it is still only on project stage. Until they finnish that section (not before 2015) trains will use the old line passing Aranjuez.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 02:33 PM   #456
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Excellent, thanks.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #457
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Elfabyanos, I just want to say you're doing a great job. Must be frustrating since it's so hard to get all the information right.

I do have one small addition to make. There is a TGV that goes from Le Havre and Rouen to Lyon and Marseilles. (Grey line to paris) There's a map on this page:

http://bonjourlafrance.net/france-tr...n-le-havre.htm
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Old April 8th, 2008, 07:19 PM   #458
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http://www.gudok.ru/index.php/58095

Quote:
Мост в Евросоюз

На ОЖД начались работы по подготовке железнодорожной инфраструктуры для организации скоростного движения на маршруте Санкт-Петербург – Хельсинки

На участке Санкт-Петербург – Выборг – Госграница в рамках реализации проекта пуска на маршруте Санкт-Петербург – Хельсинки поездов «Пендолино», развивающих скорость 200 км/ч, началась замена рельсов, установка новых систем централизации и автоблокировки, модернизация тяговых подстанций и обновление контактной сети.

Линия скоростного движения Санкт-Петербург – Выборг – Госграница спроектирована так, что наряду со скоростными здесь будут ходить также пригородные и грузовые поезда. Кроме того, каждый из участков имеет свою специфику. Поэтому на каждом из них в целях обеспечения безопасности движения будут установлены разные скоростные режимы ведения поездов. На проходящем по городской застройке головном участке от Финляндского вокзала до Парголова скорость будет ограничена 120 км/ч, на среднем магистральном участке Парголово – Выборг поезда будут разгоняться до 200 км/ч, а на большей части приграничного участка скорость составит 160 км/ч.
Russia Railroads started the upgrade of St.Petersburg - Finland border railway to enable high speed operations between St. Petersburg and Helsinki.
After upgrade, maximum speed will be 120km/h on St. Petersburg - Pargolovo(suburb of St. Petersburg) section, 200km/h on Pargolovo - Vyborg section and 160km/h on Vyborg - border section.

Line will be operated by Pendolino trains.
Upgrade is supposed to be finished in 2010 and will cost 2bln$

Last edited by Gamma-Hamster; April 8th, 2008 at 07:32 PM.
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Old April 8th, 2008, 07:26 PM   #459
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Old April 8th, 2008, 09:16 PM   #460
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Thank you very much for the updates. Gamma-Hampster - I'm looking forward to expanding my map east!!!
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