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Old April 8th, 2008, 09:47 PM   #461
elfabyanos
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Update, corrections to Spain as per Gincan's suggestions.

However I noticed another screw up. I had an upgrade line from near La Encina to the south west, yet there is actually no line to upgrade. I assume I've confused upgrades Alicant and Lorca - Any ideas? Also, I don't think I should have the Vallalodid - Leon section u/c yet?


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Old April 8th, 2008, 10:45 PM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Update, corrections to Spain as per Gincan's suggestions.
Precisely as I tried to describe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
However I noticed another screw up. I had an upgrade line from near La Encina to the south west, yet there is actually no line to upgrade. I assume I've confused upgrades Alicant and Lorca - Any ideas? Also, I don't think I should have the Vallalodid - Leon section u/c yet?

Yes the line is the Alicante-Lorca although only Murcia-Lorca is UC with a short section south of Murcia already finnished.

The Valladolid-Leon is not yet UC, some works around Leon has commenced as has works on a short section midway between Leon and Palencia. What is UC is a 50km section crossing the Cantabrian Mountains with the Pajares Tunnel (25km long 70% excavated).
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Old April 12th, 2008, 02:24 AM   #463
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I got a little question for u, mr

since you are a brightonian, I'm sure you'll be able to answer...

what HSL train goes to Brighton ? The only services that I've ever seen coming from Brighton to London (and further to the North via the Thameslink) are the Southern services (mostly to Victoria) and the First Great Western trains to Bedford. Am I forgetting something ?

May I also suggest a little change for Northern Spain: the classic line going from Madrid to Bilbao goes via a little town called Miranda-de-Ebro, which is further to the West of Vitoria. The new line (that you represent by orange dots) will be joining Vitoria and Bilbao, and therefore it should lie on the right-hand-side of the classic line, and not on the left of it

Furthermore, the new LGV Sud Europe Atlantique from Angoulême to Bordeaux is just about to be started. A new larger bridge over the Garonne river is actually almost finished, which will allow four tracks (instead of the current two) to be used to cross the river. Since this bridge is actually part of the whole LGV Sud project, it could technically be said that the line is already being built... although I leave this for your consideration.

You should think about eventually posting your map on wikipedia. I've never found anything of the kind on it. It'd be a huge contribution !!
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Old April 12th, 2008, 03:50 AM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Update, corrections to Spain as per Gincan's suggestions.

However I noticed another screw up. I had an upgrade line from near La Encina to the south west, yet there is actually no line to upgrade. I assume I've confused upgrades Alicant and Lorca - Any ideas? Also, I don't think I should have the Vallalodid - Leon section u/c yet?


I've been meddling/playing a little bit with your classification:



I still find it hard to guess the speeds of half the lines and I wouldn't put most of the ones that I know in the categories you put them.

The directissima for example is in the highest range of the yellow lines (same operating seiling as blue lines)...

The "upgraded" pallete could even be expanded a step further since most old lines have steps of around 20km/h diference:

< 100 km/h = black ????
- old routes with rought terrain or just urban crossings or obstacles
- these should be put in a thin BLACK line or if it is a small obstacle
(a tunnel/bridge or something like that you should point it out in the map as a speed limited obstacle in that particular route)

Then we get the line speeds:
< 140/160 km/h (old routes) = light grey ???
- usualy these are the classic lines everywhere ... just put where a HST has sheduled runs to a particular place ...
- preferably leave out the routes where people say that "oh its got 1 train that runs over a crossing 500 miles down south".

160/200 km/h = dark grey ???
- fast classic IC trains
- most countries "today" run their IC/HST networks in this speed range (due to limiting factors like route capacity , signaling , electrick pickup/current limitations , etc)
- this would put danish (180km/h ?) , chzeck , polish , british 3rd rail and some other networks (160km/h? with HST's) in the map (and get a lot of light grey routes eleminated elsewhere).
I willingly would give away half the portuguese blue lines If I had to just to get propper smaller speeds scales.

200/220/240/250(?) km/h upgraded routes = various blue tones ???
- same as for smaller speed ... too many different speed limits to count
- 160<->200 km/h could as easily be a dark/light blue tone here
- maiby 200<>225 km/h and 230<>250 km/h in two tones ?
- get rid of the violet for >250 km/h upgraded routes ... it's nowhere to be seen an "upgraded" route in such speed limits ... consider it as a "new" route buit on top of the old one and simplifu things ... and get a closed color for 230<>250 routes ... dark blue ?

200/220<->250 km/h "new" routes = not TRUE HSL by current standards ... someting different ??? could as easily go in the "upgraded" routes cathegory ... or leave them in the isolated yellow that they have today.

250<->360(?) km/h = orange<>red gradients ???
- "true" HSL ...
- make a breaking point every 30/40 km ... usual speeds are 260, 280 , 300 , 320/330 , 350/360 ... etc



And then we get the projected/under construction routes categories:

Something else could be done here: (probably the best would be to have a 2nd layer on the map just for these routes)

Tentactive example ... small 1 pixel wide lines:

Purposed = small dotted line ?

In the studies phase = 1 dot line ??? <<< lines with construction aproved but not u/c works yet ? these could get in this stage for decades

U/C = large dotted line ???
- I would go for a 1 dot line delineating the future route ...
- or even a 1 pixel large dotted line (the same side profile as the built routes) to allow us to put them on top of current lines without much fuss about if they are new/upgraded
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Old April 12th, 2008, 01:27 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon S View Post

since you are a brightonian, I'm sure you'll be able to answer...

what HSL train goes to Brighton ?
Two trains per day to Birmingham/Manchester on Voyagers. Not much, and it's ending december this year

Point re the Basque y duely noted, I will review notes on the next version.

Exciting about the TGV expansion - I'll have a look into that.

@ Sotavento - I'm not going to change the criteria now, it's been hard enough work as it is. The dirrettissima is 250km/h, and all the other linespeeds are correct according to the information, excepting mistakes. Classic lines under 200km/h are not going on there because they are not high speed lines - however to show the extent of the benefit of high speed lines the grey lines are included. This is not a map of the european rail network - that has been done, this map is specific and narrow in it's remit. It's all about k.i.s.s.
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Old April 12th, 2008, 11:02 PM   #466
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Old April 13th, 2008, 03:31 PM   #467
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elfabyanos, just a quick nit-pick - did you really mean to type "Classic lines served by HSL lines" in the key? "HSL lines" is a redundancy (like PIN number ), but I think you meant "served by high-speed trains" anyway...?
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Old April 13th, 2008, 04:34 PM   #468
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Heys...

Am i missing something or is Madrid and Barcelona missing direct links to Paris? London, Brussels, Paris are linked but Spain is left out?
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Old April 13th, 2008, 06:39 PM   #469
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(Paris-)-Tours-Bordeaux is at planning stage but its construction is likely.

Bordeaix-Spanish border is only planned, from there to amdrid is under construction, in operation or in planning.
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Old April 13th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
If no trains actually use these tracks at the potential speed I'll have to downgrade them, leaving them maybe dashed between the two speeds, to show that that capability is u/c in terms of the trains to provide it.


JoKo65 - I haven't got Finland yet!!! I've got quite a lot of info already, if you have any more I'll most grateful!!!

Look at this table, it's german but I think you can understand it without speaking German:


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnell...recke#Finnland
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Old April 13th, 2008, 09:53 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
elfabyanos, just a quick nit-pick - did you really mean to type "Classic lines served by HSL lines" in the key? "HSL lines" is a redundancy (like PIN number ), but I think you meant "served by high-speed trains" anyway...?
Oops I missed that. I mean to say routes serve3 by high speed trains that operate over a high speed line at high speed for a part of their journey. However that's simplest I'm not sure.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #472
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@elfabyanos: another interesting thing to ad on your magnificant map are High Speed Trains Stations, for example by a black dot, or by something diffenrent, if there are to much trainstations, you can limit them by only adding those with more than then stops of High Speed Trains a day ...
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Old April 17th, 2008, 12:58 AM   #473
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nice to see this network growing, like a macrometronetwork ,
unfortunetly the dutch network is not going to be a 300-350 km/h section as far as i know. it's going to be 250 maximum. by the end of this year they will have the train's according schedule for testing. the grey section towards germany is going to be a 200 km/h section.
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Old April 17th, 2008, 10:12 AM   #474
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I think that depends on the signalling they get sorted. The Thalys trains will be able to do 300km/h, if the AnsaldoBreda trains can't - and I thought the alignment was built to 300km/h spec?

edit - from http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/zuid/

Quote:
INFRASTRUCTURE
Although European rules state that new high-speed rail lines are to be designed for speeds of at least 250km/h (155mph), the Dutch line, however, is being constructed for 300km/h (186mph) running. Unlike the rest of NS electrified routes at 1,500V d.c., HSL Zuid and its Belgian counterpart features a 25kV ac supply.
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Old April 17th, 2008, 10:46 AM   #475
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ok i understand. could be right that the tracks are designed for 300 km/h. but the trains won't. so this map is just the ability of the tracks, not about the trains that will run on it. i'm actually quit sure the trains will just go 250 because we will have the ansoldobreda trains. it's all about savety and noise issues.
are the Ansaldobreda trains less noisy in comparison to the thalys trains? i actually never seen stat's about that. i think dutch government ad a lot of value on noise issues bacause of our density, and overregulated noise law's in here. do you know anything about that?
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Old April 17th, 2008, 12:41 PM   #476
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Yeah, it was incorporated into the design of the tracks - there's lots of panels at wheel height or something to reduce wheel noise. The map should only show capability of track and train - a fast track and slow train still equals a slow service. We'll have to see how it all pans out once the line opens. I suspect the thalys will go at full speed.
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Old April 17th, 2008, 10:16 PM   #477
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The line has been built for 300 km/h and will be used at that speed (when they finally sort out the singaling mess). The confusion probably comes from the AnsaldoBreda trains. However those will be deployed for domestic use, not international travel
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Old April 25th, 2008, 01:59 AM   #478
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A small suggestion for the Denmark map: You can erase the gray east-west line in Denmark and add a gray line from Copenhagen to the ferry in Rødby. The train rides on the ferry to Puttgarten and continues on to Hamburg.

I wonder how many high speed trains ride ferries?

This time table documents it: http://www.dsb.dk/cs/BlobServer?blob...ename=file.pdf
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Old April 25th, 2008, 01:59 PM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Viking View Post
A small suggestion for the Denmark map: You can erase the gray east-west line in Denmark and add a gray line from Copenhagen to the ferry in Rødby. The train rides on the ferry to Puttgarten and continues on to Hamburg.

I wonder how many high speed trains ride ferries?

This time table documents it: http://www.dsb.dk/cs/BlobServer?blob...ename=file.pdf
We probably need a new color system for the different speeds of the ferries that the high speed trains ride on.
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Old April 27th, 2008, 12:33 AM   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
We probably need a new color system for the different speeds of the ferries that the high speed trains ride on.
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